Quote Posted: Oct. 30 2003,10:47 Quote (Azhrei @ Oct. 30...

[Mage of Dreams]

Quote  Posted: Oct. 30 2003,10:47 Quote (Azhrei @ Oct. 30 2003,09:51)
You're all Johnny or Timmy. You THINK you're Spike because you want to use broken cards, but you're not Spike. Vintage is almost exclusively Johnny and Timmy players because there is no money to attract the Spike/pro mentality players.

I know a handful of Spikes. I consider myself to be one. I believe the ideal deck is one that does not allow the opponent to play his or her game at all. I try to play decks that ruin the other person's fun.

If you have a pet deck you play no matter what, if you care about budget decks, if you complain about price, if you think creatures "should" be good, if you inherently dislike combo, if you're nostalgic for pre-Saga card pools, if you prefer longer games, ever referred to the "dirty combo feeling," or any other number of things that sound suspiciously like something other than "I want to win the tournament"....

YOU ARE NOT A SPIKE.

Heres the Thread Link over in the Community Forums.

What an interesting concept. People who play a game for fun are a fundamental problem of the game? What kind of reasoning is this?
This is the kind of reasoning that people who live for the all elusive Best Deck come up with. I have news for you, untill MTG has exactly 60 cards in the game total, with rules requiring 60 card decks with no s/b, there will never be a BEST DECK. As long as there is card choice and metagames the best deck is the one that wins the current tournament it is playing in.

I guess it is time that Zherbus deletes both of the Casual Forums, and the Fantasy Card Creation Forum at the very least. After all the voices on high have decreed these things to be fluff and detrements to the game. After all this is the Premier T1 forum right, so by definition these Forums need to go. Let the collateral damage begin..

Of course I'm sure the irony of this kind of attitude with next to no support from the parent company has been completly missed.\n\n

[Razvan]

Wow... all I can say is that my respect for K-Run shot through the roof and is still going strong.

Quote Azhrei: I know a handful of Spikes. I consider myself to be one. I believe the ideal deck is one that does not allow the opponent to play his or her game at all. I try to play decks that ruin the other person's fun.

Up to the last sentence, it's all good. It's called disruption. But the vehemence of the last sentence leads me to believe that if you beat someone like this, it feels twice as good. I know I am being semantic, but still. Azhrei is like the evil bad dragon dude that almost always wins, and it takes a knight with a really big sword to slay him.

And I, for one, try to play decks that win. Obviously any kind of deck that doesn't disrupt your opponent better win on turn 1 or 2, otherwise, it can get dicey.

Quote MoreFling:
"because I simply don't like it"

That's a VERY good reason not to play a certain deck. If you disagree, you're even a bigger dork than I thought.

Well said. Although it's a problem that needs to be tackled, it's annoying when self-called Spikes go on the web, get the best deck possible (which obviously falls into the category Azhrei stated: it ruins the opponent's fun), and go into a tournament claiming it's the best. Furthermore, they have that mentality, and think that because it's the best deck, they can win. Hell, I can even go as far as to say that they ARE THERE to ruin the opponent's fun. Luckily, they aren't as skilled as Azhrei, and they lose.

If you are going to take someone else's idea, at least be humble about it and at least convince yourself that the victory isn't entirely yours.

Anyhow, maybe I should get to the point. No one is ruining Vintage. It's the combination of every person in it that makes it good. Otherwise, we'd all be playing Trix and donane Illusions back and forth. Whee, that's fun.

Whenever I am in a tournament, I don't try to ruin my opponent's fun. I don't try any of those mind tricks to screw them up, for them to make mistakes, or stuff like that. I just win. I think that the decks I take (whether my idea or not) and my skill should be enough. And if I don't have fun doing it, then what's the point?

As kl0wn said, the prize is secondary. Go to the World Poker Championships, where the prize is in the millions if you care about it.

It's a game. It should be fun.

[jpmeyer]

Tournaments are based on whoever wins the most games, not whoever has the most fun.  Casual games are based on who has the most fun, not who wins the most.  For me, winning is more fun than playing the game "my way."  Therefore, I play in tournies.  This why I don't say, play group games.  I just want to get my kill in turn 3, which then provides pleasure in that it fulfills beliefs that my work in practicing, tuning, etc. was worthwhile.  It's the joy of a job well done.

[Triple_S]

Actually, Azhrei doesn't actively play anymore so I'm not really sure why anyone bothers to listen to him at this point anyways.

[VassiliZaitsev]

It would seem to me that playing a deck that wouldn't be fun would be pointless. If at the end of every tournament you find yourself just wanting to go home, then why did you come? Sure, at the large tournaments you would of course select the best deck, but otherwise I feel people should remember its a game. And if you want to play a chog deck one day, it should be fine. And if someone laughs, just come next week and beat them down with your real deck    . That's just my opinion.

[Azhrei]

Never have so many misunderstood so much at such great length....

[Razvan]

JP: you are right, of course. However, think of playing a computer game, for the sake of the argument. Say something extensive, like Baldur's Gate.

You can play it through, figure stuff out, and beat the final boss. You won the game.

You can get a walkthrough, and beat the final boss. You won the game.

Now, which one is more fun, and more rewarding? Hell, I could claim that in the second one, you aren't actually winning, you are just the actual arm, an extension of the true victor.

Which is what happens a lot of time. It's very frustrating to see those walkthrough-kiddies celebrate beating the final boss. Well, apply this to magic.

I mean, I always want to win, don't get me wrong. But I think it's the same reason I don't cheat. There is no point in winning, unless you earn it. I could definitely go spend $2000 to complete my power set (as in add 8 cards  ), copy one of the top decks right now (for the sake of the argument, Burning Desire Long.dec) and go win.

Or, take one of the so-called pet decks and win with those. Of course, I do try to learn a lot by reading and playing and taking suggestions from others. It would be dumb to refuse that.

But I don't think it's worth it to mechanically play a deck and win with it. I didn't win, whoever came up with the idea won. I just won it for him. If I would win with Long.dec, I should split the prize between myself, Mike Long and whomever else came up with it.

To suggest that the above paragraph is the correct way of proceeding in playing magic, okay, that's fine.

But there are some of those that suggest that the paragraph is wrong (such as I do). And to claim that these people are ruining Vintage... well, that is just BS.

Triple_S: well, Azhrei did contribute a lot to type 1 in the past, and while I didn't know whether he plays or not, his suggestions are still observed. Whether they are right or wrong.

[Razvan]

Quote Never have so many misunderstood so much at such great length....

Okay, explain. And I am sure there has been a time in history when more misunderstood an even larger ammount at a greater length.

Quote If anything, the people who are anti-Spike are the ones claiming to be "better" somehow, because they are seeking to deny the validity of Spike's fun.

That's a good point, actually.

[Dr. Sylvan]

Quote (Triple_S @ Oct. 30 2003,15:20)Actually, Azhrei doesn't actively play anymore so I'm not really sure why anyone bothers to listen to him at this point anyways.

Because he has "Super Administrators" as his Group, and "Paragon of Vintage" under his identity. It's just like being the President: people take what you say much more seriously, and for whatever reason believe that you aren't the same as other people. There's probably only a handful of people on TMD over 30, and not all that many who are out of college, but that doesn't matter. Message boards warp all of our perspectives of realistic authority.

Azhrei obviously does have a point: tournaments are for Spike. But in Vintage, the Johnnys don't *want* to fight Spike, because here it doesn't feel like it should be our job to suppress all the natural advantages (read: fun-removing cards/decks/strategies) that the format provides to Spike. Even though Spike is pursuing his fun like the rest of us, he's causing a lot of damage to the Johnny/Spikes along the way. I think the 'hybrid' archetype of "Johnny/Spike" (which I fall into) is what causes this friction, because the unique character of that hybrid is to want to win, but only in an acceptably fun way. So he goes to tournaments and tries to have fun doing so--he likes competition, but he doesn't want to eat babies to be successful at it. (Please don't flame my ridiculous hyperbole.) T2/1.X cannot sustain most of these people, because their pet decks will rotate out too fast and not always have a replacement. This is why Vintage's future must have room for such players: the format is naturally for us, and there is no other.

The job of the DCI should be to leave room for the Johnny side by paying attention to the wake of destruction around the limited supply of true Spikes.

[Mage of Dreams]

Quote Tournaments are based on whoever wins the most games, not whoever has the most fun.  Casual games are based on who has the most fun, not who wins the most.  For me, winning is more fun than playing the game "my way."  Therefore, I play in tournies.  This why I don't say, play group games.  I just want to get my kill in turn 3, which then provides pleasure in that it fulfills beliefs that my work in practicing, tuning, etc. was worthwhile.  It's the joy of a job well done.

And there is nothing wrong with that. I would never suggest that you or your kind (damn that just sounds wrong ) were what was wrong with the game. Truthfully the game survives because there is a wide range of appeal.
I enjoy the win also, hell my wife had to quit playing for a while because I couldn't seperate casual from the desire and joy of winning.

Quote Actually, Azhrei doesn't actively play anymore so I'm not really sure why anyone bothers to listen to him at this point anyways.

I don't know but Steven's first reply, intentional or not, came across as possibly one of the most arrogant, condocending statements I've heard in a long time.
The case could just as easily be made that people with that attitude stifle any innovation in the game. Hell If we all only played the best deck, we'd still be in Black Summer because Stasis was such a sucky card that the first major player had to be payed to play the deck. Or to go back farther there never would have been a Black Summer because no one thought Necro was a good card, shit we'd all still be playing "The Deck" ( oh wait bad example  )

To say any one type of player is the problem with the format is a rather narrow and shallow minded view, but hey thats just one players opinion.

Now I'm going to go play some MTG for fun with my wife and 3 kids then later I'm going to put the finishing touches on my T2FNMYourMyBitch.netdec.dec so I can have some more fun winning prizes and smashing face   
Until later,
enjoying the best of all worlds
Shawn

[Azhrei]

Quote (Dr. Sylvan @ Oct. 30 2003,16:46)The job of the DCI should be to leave room for the Johnny side by paying attention to the wake of destruction around the limited supply of true Spikes.

And because the Johnnys won't play the degenerate decks out of some obtuse principle, the DCI can't put a stop to things fast enough. Imagine if there were a deck that always won. Always, no matter what. Now imagine that only one guy played it.

This is the most degenerate deck imaginable, winning 100% of its games versus every other deck in the format no matter what they try.

But only one guy plays it.

Will it ever be stopped by bannings or restrictions?

NO!

Why?

Because unless Johnny embraces his inner Spike, not enough people will PLAY that deck to give the DCI a real indicator of a problem. The Lone Spike will merrily slaughter his way to victory after victory, and will NEVER STOP because a deck needs to start filling up the metagame in order to get the ax.

If you want to stop a degenerate deck, START PLAYING IT. By not playing the degenerate decks, you hurt the format because that allows them to stick around longer. GAT came and went quickly because so many people played it that it became obvious. Not enough people play Burning Desire, so it has had a while to stick around.

The best way to keep the format healthy is not to hide behind a facade of "I want to have fun in tournaments so I will ignore the problem deck," but rather to try and steer the format right into the sun screaming all the way "FIX THIS PROBLEM NOW SO WE CAN GET BACK TO NORMAL!"

The refusal to be Spikish only HURTS the tournament scene by letting the true Spikes get away with degeneracy for longer.

[jpmeyer]

Quote (Razvan @ Oct. 30 2003,16:41)JP: you are right, of course. However, think of playing a computer game, for the sake of the argument. Say something extensive, like Baldur's Gate.

You can play it through, figure stuff out, and beat the final boss. You won the game.

You can get a walkthrough, and beat the final boss. You won the game.

Now, which one is more fun, and more rewarding? Hell, I could claim that in the second one, you aren't actually winning, you are just the actual arm, an extension of the true victor.

Which is what happens a lot of time. It's very frustrating to see those walkthrough-kiddies celebrate beating the final boss. Well, apply this to magic.

There is one huge difference here.  With the walkthrough, there is no part of this that you are adding to this.  If you netdeck Long.dec and win with it, while it is true that you didn't do everything yourself, it was still up to you to do the actual work ON YOUR OWN to win the games in that tourney.  You couldn't just have someone tell you what to do the entire time.  There isn't just an intangible "winning" in the walkthrough example.  You didn't actually "do" anything.  You still had to actually win those games in the tourney without anyone elses' help once you get there.

[Mage of Dreams]

Quote And because the Johnnys won't play the degenerate decks out of some obtuse principle, the DCI can't put a stop to things fast enough. Imagine if there were a deck that always won. Always, no matter what. Now imagine that only one guy played it.

This is the most degenerate deck imaginable, winning 100% of its games versus every other deck in the format no matter what they try.

But only one guy plays it.

Will it ever be stopped by bannings or restrictions?

NO!

Why?

Because unless Johnny embraces his inner Spike, not enough people will PLAY that deck to give the DCI a real indicator of a problem. The Lone Spike will merrily slaughter his way to victory after victory, and will NEVER STOP because a deck needs to start filling up the metagame in order to get the ax.

If you want to stop a degenerate deck, START PLAYING IT. By not playing the degenerate decks, you hurt the format because that allows them to stick around longer. GAT came and went quickly because so many people played it that it became obvious. Not enough people play Burning Desire, so it has had a while to stick around.

The best way to keep the format healthy is not to hide behind a facade of "I want to have fun in tournaments so I will ignore the problem deck," but rather to try and steer the format right into the sun screaming all the way "FIX THIS PROBLEM NOW SO WE CAN GET BACK TO NORMAL!"

The refusal to be Spikish only HURTS the tournament scene by letting the true Spikes get away with degeneracy for longer.

And here is why topics go to hell in a handbasket. Please read your original post and explain to me how ANYONE with no other frame of reference is supposed to understand that this was what you were trying to say.

Did you state that you had a theory about why T1 was having any problems you precived? No

Did you explain what you see as problems with T1? No

Did you give any frame of reference at all to any possible idea you were trying to communicate? No

What you did was tell people that they are wrong about what type of play style they enjoy.
And you honestly don't understand peoples reaction? Truthfully a post like that would have been locked almost instantly down here in newbieville, but then we have standards to maintain (Kidding damn it, just kidding).
Actually I'm curious as to whether it was your post or Stephen's that drew the more passionet responses.

Quote There is one huge difference here.  With the walkthrough, there is no part of this that you are adding to this.  If you netdeck Long.dec and win with it, while it is true that you didn't do everything yourself, it was still up to you to do the actual work ON YOUR OWN to win the games in that tourney.  You couldn't just have someone tell you what to do the entire time.  There isn't just an intangible "winning" in the walkthrough example.  You didn't actually "do" anything.  You still had to actually win those games in the tourney without anyone elses' help once you get there.

This is very true and can be easily observed at a tourny if you've ever sat across from someone who has just copied a deck (esp. something like Long) and you can see them trying to figure out how to play it as your kicking their ass. Netdecking is not always the brainless thing it appears to be. There are basic plays/matchups to learn, individual preference tweaks to be made, metagame choices ect.

[Azhrei]

Go through the whole thread and read everything I said. I specifically state several times that SPIKE NEEDS TO BE STOPPED at every opportunity. I'm cheering for Johnny, even as a Spike myself, but Johnny is not doing his part. I like Johnny, but Johnny is LAZY right now and not doing his job.

Spike is Jason. Johnny can't stop Spike unless he picks up a machete himself.

When Spike is defeated, Johnny gets a time of peace when he can go have his fun again.

I didn't write a full essay because I didn't feel one was warranted. I may have been wrong. I do, however, feel as though I mad my stance VERY clear (Johnny must use Spike's weapons rather than "honorably" avoid them to keep degeneracy from overtaking the format) on several occassions, and I basically got crucified for it by people who saw what they wanted to see rather than what was there.

[Mage of Dreams]

@Azhrei:
None of what you said later changes the fact that your original post left itself wide open for misunderstanding. Your later posts absolutely clarified what you were trying to get across.
What you have later posted is actually a good topic for discussion. Of course now everyone is in the downward spiral of almost certin topic death.

Quote I didn't write a full essay because I didn't feel one was warranted. I may have been wrong. I do, however, feel as though I mad my stance VERY clear (Johnny must use Spike's weapons rather than "honorably" avoid them to keep degeneracy from overtaking the format) on several occassions, and I basically got crucified for it by people who saw what they wanted to see rather than what was there.

You did make your point clear, after the fallout began. IMHO you really should have put the time in to explain yourself, most of us dont walk around wearing our mindreader hats all day.

Out of context quote of the week:
Bastion;

Quote I like White Weenie a lot, but I aknowledge its limitations and I know what it can and cannot do.

[Razvan]

Quote There is one huge difference here.  With the walkthrough, there is no part of this that you are adding to this.  If you netdeck Long.dec and win with it, while it is true that you didn't do everything yourself, it was still up to you to do the actual work ON YOUR OWN to win the games in that tourney.  You couldn't just have someone tell you what to do the entire time.  There isn't just an intangible "winning" in the walkthrough example.  You didn't actually "do" anything.  You still had to actually win those games in the tourney without anyone elses' help once you get there.

JP: Well, you do add stuff in the walkthrough. You are the one clicking on the buttons, you are the one that kills the monsters, you are the one doing some of the choices. And you do customize some things (unless there is some ridiculous walkthrough that tells you how far to drag the mouse when you click to move your character).

And, of course, it's not the same in magic. It was just sort of a comparaison.

But that wasn't the impression I got from Darren's original post (I am sorry, I don't know what Azhrei is, and every time I type it, I type it differently, and I don't want to screw it up. It's a very odd combination of letters ZHR).

Okay, let's get something clear. We are mostly Johhny's/Spikes (I still don't know who came up with this, or where that stupid test it, or whatever). We all want to win. If you don't, go play Hands-across-America, or something stupid like that. No one here will go: "Well, it doesn't matter whether I win or lose!"

I mean: "Well, I finished the day with a 0-X record, and everyone was laughing at me because I was playing with 8cc+ creatures (and only 8cc+ creatures), but that's okay because I didn't make anyone feel bad!", is a stupid way of being.

It's just as bad as: "Well, I won the tournament, even though no one on the East Coast will ever want to play me again!"

Okay, in hindsight, what Darren said makes sense (especially the second time around). And yes, being emotional to a hypothesis, facts and conclusion doesn't make for a very stable argument.

And Jason kills. He doesn't play magic (that we know off). The circumstances often dictate the course of action.

[Vega]

I actually agree with Azhrei's theory that if we wer to embrace the brokenes more often the dci would notice giving us faster descisions on ther part and a more healthy metagame more often...............even though we would have periods were a borken deck would come creatinga combo winter of sorts. thats the one downside to this but like communism this should work in theory (=) ) I feel this is a notable discussion and can help us figure out how to hav less degenerate periods of play.

[blue_negator]

Quote (Azhrei @ Oct. 30 2003,14:03)

Quote (Dr. Sylvan @ Oct. 30 2003,16:46)The job of the DCI should be to leave room for the Johnny side by paying attention to the wake of destruction around the limited supply of true Spikes.

And because the Johnnys won't play the degenerate decks out of some obtuse principle, the DCI can't put a stop to things fast enough. Imagine if there were a deck that always won. Always, no matter what. Now imagine that only one guy played it.

This is the most degenerate deck imaginable, winning 100% of its games versus every other deck in the format no matter what they try.

But only one guy plays it.

Will it ever be stopped by bannings or restrictions?

NO!

Why?

Because unless Johnny embraces his inner Spike, not enough people will PLAY that deck to give the DCI a real indicator of a problem. The Lone Spike will merrily slaughter his way to victory after victory, and will NEVER STOP because a deck needs to start filling up the metagame in order to get the ax.

If you want to stop a degenerate deck, START PLAYING IT. By not playing the degenerate decks, you hurt the format because that allows them to stick around longer. GAT came and went quickly because so many people played it that it became obvious. Not enough people play Burning Desire, so it has had a while to stick around.

The best way to keep the format healthy is not to hide behind a facade of "I want to have fun in tournaments so I will ignore the problem deck," but rather to try and steer the format right into the sun screaming all the way "FIX THIS PROBLEM NOW SO WE CAN GET BACK TO NORMAL!"

The refusal to be Spikish only HURTS the tournament scene by letting the true Spikes get away with degeneracy for longer.

This is a very interesting theory.  And to a certain extent I agree with it.  However, when you really think about it WHY do the casual players care so much about degenerate decks?  I mean in theory the casual player won't play degenerate decks anyways and the other casual players they play with won't play degenerate decks so in their own little metagame there won't be a problem.  However, if these casual players want to play in a tournament, therefore effectively casting their title of "casual" player away then shouldn't they then accept the fact that degenerate decks win.  And then to play a degenerate deck in hopes of winning ?

Now on to Dr. Sylvans theory of spike/johnny hybrids.  Well, this is obviously true in many senses.  People want to win and have fun too.  Well, some will argue that winning IS fun.  People have got to realize that you can't always have your cake and eat it too.  I myself probably fall into the johnny/spike category; however, even though I like to play my own pet decks for fun I have no problem picking up a "degenerate" deck when it comes time for the tournament.  Basically it all comes down to "put up or shut up."  Type 1 is an inherently broken format.  Sure a lot of people out there play type 1 because they want to play with the old FUN cards.  But HOW can they expect to win with these cards?  It's like the guy that loves his own beat up yugo, I mean sure, great this guy loves his car there's nothing wrong with that.  But if he wants to take it to the track and expect to win against the porshe's he's pretty dense.

[rhox505]

Razvan,

your thoery makes almost perfect sense.  for the longest time, i considered net decks cheating.  i would absolutely love it if everyone who ever played at a tournament guarded their decklist like a secret so that everyeon had to design their decks from the ground up.  when you play with your friedns in real life, you can do this, and its fun as hell.

but professional t1 is a different scene.  there is less designing skill involved.  however, there is still a lot of skill involved.  skill in judging the metagame, anticipating what types of matchups you will get, skill in making modifications to net decks in order to give yourself the extra edge.

azrhei makes a very good point about how playing the "good" deck makes it the "out of date deck".  kinda like keeper.  i feel kind of sad about keeper specifically because i dont think it will ever come back again now that there are so many good combos, it will just get weaker and weaker over time as the combo decks get more and more powerful from the larger cardpool.

[jpmeyer]

What we are partially trying to get at is the fact that Spike will always play the best deck, whatever that is.  If the best deck is manageable, that's fine with Spike, since he only cares that he has the best deck, whatever that may be, and fine with Johnny and Johnny/Spike because now they have more leeway to experiment and to do their thing, which is what makes it fun for them.  But if the best deck is broken, while Spike doesn't necessarily care, since he only cares that he has the best deck, Johnny and Johnny/Spike are better off doing something about it than complaining, and the best thing to do about it is to show that the deck is degenerate.

[Smmenen]

I apologize for my comments.  I can onloy try and say that my intentions in my comments were not what they seem.  I was aiming my comments at some of the better players - not the people who regularly read this site.  So, again, I apologize and hope I haven't offended anyone.

Steve\n\n

[Necrologia]

Everyone, this is a game we're arguing about.

For Spike: If the DCI restricts the wrong thing due to the Johnny’s, rejoice. The new best deck gets will be even more broken by comparison. If you can't get the Johnny’s to fight back, rejoice. You can just keep on winning.

For Johnny: No one's forcing you to play at tournaments. There’s always casual with your friends. I play Magic because it's fun, and since the atmosphere at most tourneys is anything but fun, I usually stay away. If you want to win, play at a tourney. If you want to have fun, play with your friends. It's that simple.

I really wish this site would revert back to its pre-Mirrodin status. Helping people with their decklists is just so much more fun than arguing that the format is in some form of degeneracy.

[Smmenen]

Quote (Necrologia @ Oct. 30 2003,22:07)I really wish this site would revert back to its pre-Mirrodin status. Helping people with their decklists is just so much more fun than arguing that the format is in some form of degeneracy.

You have NO idea how much I agree with you.  I close two threads and but three sprout up.  

I thought my latest article would help focus attention on decks again, and it did for a bit, but it just got ugly quick.  

What's wrong with us?

Steve

[Dr. Sylvan]

Quote (Smmenen @ Oct. 31 2003,00:18)What's wrong with us?

I'm betting that most people haven't done a lot of post-Mirrodin testing (remember all that crap about Chalice-MUD being unbeatable?), and I think that has a lot to do with not knowing what lists to test with to learn. I'm certainly not immune; trying to throw Chalice into decks that were so finely tuned beforehand feels clumsy to me, so I'm less confident in the test games that I have played. I'm pretty sure Burning Desire put every casual (non-Spike) player's 'survival' mode into full gear worrying that there would never again be a day when you didn't have to fear first-turn Tendrils, which is a partial explanation for the latest flare-up--no matter what, Johnny loves his Vintage Magic and isn't about to abandon his castle. Now that the first few tournaments are coming in and there's some data from the actual good players, the less innovative "middle-class" of people can whip out their Apprentice and get a better feel for what's going on.

I'll admit my own article about bannings was based (possibly too much) on the idea that Burning Desire/TPS/Long/whateverStormDeck was going to be not just still viable, but freshly amplified in power post-Mirrodin. I'm still worried, but I think we have a very interesting metagame right now and I must say I'm relieved. I find critical mass still holds water--but we're alright for the moment. I never thought I would say this, but I'm not sure anything *needs* to go in December (!) unless proven otherwise soon, though I'm arrogant enough to have my own personal wish list of changes that I think would be improvements, even if they're not absolutely critical.

In short, Steve, I think Chicken Little is running out of breath, but he might keep hacking and gasping for a few more days. Maybe, just maybe, it'll be a while before another round of this emerges.

*returns to JohnnyLand and playtesting Zoo as an exercise in extreme futility*

[Mykeatog]

I play type 1 cause I am not a pussy.
I play aggro cause it is the way to win.
I think that my aggro deck can beat your deck if I build it right.
I am not worse than you, or any less competative than you.
I feel that I make the best decisions I can, with everythign I am offered.
Fuck what anyone else says.
And as of the last two weeks...

Fuck The Mana Drain.

[Traveler]

I think I can add some perspective here: I moved to a new area.  Many other type 1 players have moved here.  We moved here because of new jobs so we don't have a lot of time to play, but on Sundays, we got together with other players in the area to have a casual tournament.  First prize was a free draft set.  We had 60+ people showing up at these things.  Then, some FNMers started net decking stax and beating people with shadow decks.  First turn sphere of resistance isn't fun to play against, but there is a game.  Then, some of the better players resorted to net decking long.dec to get rid of the stax guys.  All this is over 3 packs of cards mind you.  Well, sitting there while someone spends 5 minutes to decide if they can win on turn 1, deciding not and mulliganning, to spend 5 mins to figure out they can win, then the 10 mins it takes to win, so I spent 20 mins 'playing' magic in which I never took a turn.  So, if you think 60+ still show up, you'd be wrong.  Its maybe 10 FNMers who net deck.  

The reason discussion of new decks has stopped on TMD is because its hard to discuss a new build when your game is sit there for 20 mins and lose before you get a turn.  

The original thread began with "If you hate combo...you might be a Johnny."   Social pressures to not play combo has always kept the format from degenerating.  If you designed long.dec and won a tournament with it, Johnny says 'Congrats' and you play something else next week.  Otherwise Johnny doesn't play with you anymore.  Now a few Spikes are net decking long and bringing it every week.  Social pressure don't keep them from showing up, so Johnny stays home to drink and if he's lucky...

[Razvan]

Quote I apologize for my comments.  I can onloy try and say that my intentions in my comments were not what they seem.  I was aiming my comments at some of the better players - not the people who regularly read this site.  So, again, I apologize and hope I haven't offended anyone.

Steve

One could guess that this would imply that the people who read this site are NOT good players  .

No, the original problem I had with the comment (not yours, Steve), was the attitude. And sadly, sometimes it seems that the better players do have that sort of mentality. Take, um, Kai, or whomever. He can go to a tourney with the attitude Azhrei suggested (letting no one else have fun), and win. He will have fun winning, doing nothing else, people won't like playing him, but at least he won.

Now take any of the other "Spikes". They go with the same attitude, but they don't have the required skill, and they lose. Hell, they could even lose to one of the Timmies, although most likely to the Johnnies. Or even to another Spike.

So now, the defeated Spike ponders. He didn't win. He didn't have fun. He wasted hours of his day, and the entry fee. What was the gain? Nothing. Experience? Maybe, but not enough. Even if he wins 1 out of 4 tournaments. He spent 30 hours total time (let's say), to win, say a Mox. $150. Since victory was the ultimate goal, it comes out to $5/hour. So less than minimum wage for High School kids.

So what then? He didn't win, so he had no fun. Bah, just get a job instead. This attitude only works for pro's, and there's only so many of them here.

It's an expected return value equation in the end, I guess.

It's not even about netdecking, it's the attitude you take with it. Even if you play Stax, which, btw, is fun due to Memory Jar   . Winning comes from skill primarily.

And yes, if I understand JP correctly, Johnny's and Johhny/Spikes (again, who came up with this), should stop complaining (always a good thing), and just go kick ass in a field of unfun spikes.

Imagine winning AND having fun?  Unbelievable! Maybe it is the end of Magic.

[graedus]

Although I understand the purpose of Smmenen's statement, I just can't catalogue it outside a set of good wishes.

We all have to deal with the fact that the T1 environment doesn't have the incentives to make it competitive enough, and people won't spend their time and money on anything unrewarded according to their effort. They my try to fine tune in Apprentice. Even if it was competitive enough,

1. There are not enough power cards to fit a rewarded environment demand.
2. The fields are so diverse, and the card pool so extense, that not even the powerfulest 'Dojo effect' will be enough to keep up the evolution pace.
3. Apprentice isn't sanctioned

If Smmenen thinks his effort is rewarded, fine! But personally I just think he can't just whine about that and the way he approached it without pinching the scar and thus not get somehow flamed.

What I'm really afraid of his initial statement is that it would reflect the true feeling of some users who want the non-competitive post (and thus their posters) out of the site. I guess that has always been an issue around the good player's minds', even before bdominia. I guessed that the über-elite discussing space issue was history already, I really hope it is. Anyways, this is a private space, so be Zherbus will.

And here is some piece of advice for all. Don't whine, intelligently cope! We have all done this, at some point in our lives.

[Ephraim]

Quote (Azhrei @ Oct. 30 2003,14:03)

Quote (Dr. Sylvan @ Oct. 30 2003,16:46)The job of the DCI should be to leave room for the Johnny side by paying attention to the wake of destruction around the limited supply of true Spikes.

And because the Johnnys won't play the degenerate decks out of some obtuse principle, the DCI can't put a stop to things fast enough. Imagine if there were a deck that always won. Always, no matter what. Now imagine that only one guy played it.

This is the most degenerate deck imaginable, winning 100% of its games versus every other deck in the format no matter what they try.

But only one guy plays it.

Will it ever be stopped by bannings or restrictions?

NO!

Why?

Because unless Johnny embraces his inner Spike, not enough people will PLAY that deck to give the DCI a real indicator of a problem. The Lone Spike will merrily slaughter his way to victory after victory, and will NEVER STOP because a deck needs to start filling up the metagame in order to get the ax.

If you want to stop a degenerate deck, START PLAYING IT. By not playing the degenerate decks, you hurt the format because that allows them to stick around longer. GAT came and went quickly because so many people played it that it became obvious. Not enough people play Burning Desire, so it has had a while to stick around.

The best way to keep the format healthy is not to hide behind a facade of "I want to have fun in tournaments so I will ignore the problem deck," but rather to try and steer the format right into the sun screaming all the way "FIX THIS PROBLEM NOW SO WE CAN GET BACK TO NORMAL!"

The refusal to be Spikish only HURTS the tournament scene by letting the true Spikes get away with degeneracy for longer.

The problem with an attitude like this is that Spike always benefits and Johnny often loses out. If Johnny embraces this attitude, then he'll only be able to really enjoy himself for the brief period between broken decks. Every time Spike comes up with something that's miserable to play against, Johnny has to grit his teeth and play yet another deck that he can't stand, just to get the format back to the way he likes it. Now, Spike's a clever guy, so I really doubt that Johnny's going to get much more than a couple of weeks of fun, before Spike comes up with the next big thing.

I guess, in the end, it's going to boil down to "The Type I tournament environment sucks for Johnny." As a proud Johnny/Spike, who only dabbles in tournament play, I'm happy to say that I always try to win, but if I'm winning every game, it's time to retire that deck.

[SamuraiMike]

I think I might be able to add to this conversation with a comparison.

For eleven years, from middle school through college, I was a competitive distance runner.  All in all, Spike-like behavior is not that different between competitive pursuits, since the thing that keeps Spike going is the competition itself.  Seeing as my cross country team won two NCAA Division I titles while I was on the team, and a handful of my teammates ran in the 2000 Olympics for the USA, I feel justified in saying I was the running equivalent of Spike.

As I said before, Spike feeds off competing, or more specifically, winning.  The best moments of a Spike's Magic experiences will always be their greatest victories.  Spike has such a great need to win, that he will go to great lengths to do so.  In my case with running, I ran 70 miles a week through most of college.  I spent my summers running more.  My studies suffered somewhat as a result.  I didn't date much.  I spent money on special shoes just for racing: spikes for racing on grass or the track, flats for racing on pavement.  Frequently I was feeling so sick from running, that I just picked at my dinner.  In Magic, Spike will spend tons of money on cards, drive excessive distances to tournaments, practice for long periods of time, endure 0-2 drops, and so on, all to get one more hit of that wonderful drug, Victory.

The other half of my analogy relates to local competition.  Most cities and towns from time to time will have road races.  These are the 8K-value/Friday Night Magic events of the running world.  People will turn out from in-town and the neighboring cities as well.  A reasonable race might have 50-100 people.  When you show up at these events, there is inevitably going to be a couple of Spikes.  Not surprisingly, the Spikes like me left all the soccer moms and weekend warrior dads behind within the first 15 seconds of a 3 mile race.

The point of my story is this: even at local, low-key events, there are going to be Spikes in Magic as there are in running.  In running, the forty-five year old woman who runs 10 minutes a mile knows she is not going to win yet still comes.  Why?  Because she enjoys being in a race.  She enjoys running against the clock.  Maybe she enjoys meeting people during the race, and runs with them during the race, each encouraging the other.

The only way you have a chance at beating Spike is to pay the price that Spike pays.  When I was in middle school, I played little-league basketball.  As my dad and I drove home one day after being eliminated in the first round of the playoffs, I cried about how it was unfair that I was always on the teams that lost.  My dad did something that changed my life forever.  He told me the way to make sure that I never felt this way again was by practicing and paying the price to win.

Each of us needs to decide how much of a price we are willing to pay in order to win, and then we need to be satisfied with the level of play that that brings us to.  The 45-year old woman runner is not really willing to pay any price at all, but she has found a level of competition that suits her.  I build budget decks because I am not willing to spend a lot of money.  I practice some, but not a lot.  When I used to live in California, I played occasionally at C&Js.  I was mediocre at best, but I was okay with it.  Where I play now, I'm more of a big fish, and I'm (clearly) okay with that.  Your metagame determines the price for each level of performance.  If you wisely judge want you want vs. what you have to pay in order to get it, you can never be ripped off.