Suggested by Myself, and asked by quite a few. I have Dec...

[shadowspawn]

Quote So would null rod hose, say, Metalworker and Nullbrooch

Yes, it does because you have a certain cost to pay upon activation.

Jester's Cap keeps coming across as something I should test, but I'm not a huge fan of opponent library thinning, even if it can win you the game. I'll have to test it myself, against some decks what are the best choices?

[Toad]

For your information, my current Welder MUD sideboard is the following :

4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Blood Moon
3 Rack and Ruin
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Gorilla Shaman

The single Gorilla Shaman looks random, but I also run 2 in the maindeck. I want the third one against Long and Dutch Tendrils. I sometimes pack Pyrite Spellbomb if I expect lots of Keeper and Mirror matches, because killing Welders and Shamans is the key here. Blood Moon is here because It's one of the best card ever. Period. It hoses Dragon, and that's what I want it to do. It's also good against Keeper, which is a nice bonus. I'll give some SB tables if requested.

Edit : I haven't mentionned it yet, but I'm using Grafted Skullcap as my draw engine. This explains the Ensnaring Bridges. It was kinda obvious though.\n\n

[BaronSengir]

In that case Toad, what would you suggest as a sideboard for decks that use Mind's Eye as a draw engine, such as Stacker 3 (in testing, I believe) and Deadbolt?

Would Blood Moon warrant a place? I also see you are lacking REB, have you chosen to replace them with Blood Moon?

is this sb ok?

4 R&R
4 REB
4 Crypt
3 Cap/Blood Moon/Mox Monke

[rozetta]

REB is not all that good with Grafted Skullcap, since it's a reactional card and you can't keep it in hand. This is one reason why people have been looking for a replacement for Skullcap, since a single Hurkyl's Recall (and on occasions, Energy Flux) might own you and REB would be a nice sideboard card in this case.

[Toad]

I've played a few games with wMUD packing Mind's Eye over Grafted Skullcap and didn't like it, so I've never worked on a sideboard for that version.

I don't run REBs because of the bad synergy with Grafted Skullcap. Nevertheless, I don't run Blood Moon as a remplacement solution. Blood Moons and REB have two different purpose, and in the current environment, Blood Moon is far better than REB. Blood Moon is once again going to be an environment defining card, as it's an extremely potent weapon against Dragon and Keeper. Sometimes I often run 2 Blood Moons maindeck (with sligh mana base changes to support the heavier red component), because it simply win games on its own. Wasteland are good at killing Bazaars and preventing Keeper from getting his UU open as a one-shot, Blood Moon will do it forever.

Whatever, your sideboard looks fine. I'd just strongly advise you to run Blood Moons over REBs, as they are simply stronger nowadays (barring Energy Flux and Hurkyl's Recall). It also depends on what you run in the maindeck, your mana base and your utility spells.

[BreathWeapon]

Well, i'm pretty sure the majority of individuals in this thread use Mind's Eye, so REB is pretty much automatic inclusion. That doesn't meen we don't have to play Bloodmoon, our deck have still have 3 open slots to fill. These two cards are definately not in contention with each other for SB spaces.

[BaronSengir]

What would we cut for Blood Moon then? assuming an average SB for a Mind's Eye based prison.dec would be:

4 R&R
4 REB
4 Crypt
3x Metagame

[BreathWeapon]

Nothing, just add them to the Metagame slots, because thats what Bloodmoon is ... a Metagame Card.

[Toad]

I'd rather have Blood Moons over Red Elemental Blast. REBs do little to nothing to Dragon (countering an Intuition is not a big deal) and are one shot against Keeper, where Blood Moon is almost game. I'd say REB is more a metagame consideration, because it only really hits blue based control decks, while Blood Moon is usefull against a wider part of the field.

If you go that way, you may as well consider Rack and Ruin and Tormod's Crypt as metagame calls. In a metagame where no one plays Dragon or Long, you don't need Crypts. Same if nobody plays Workshop decks for Rack and Ruin. The entiere essence of sideboards is metagame considerations, so asking for an optimal sideboard by making metagame approaches is *quite* an utopy on an open T1 website like TMD.

[BreathWeapon]

I was working under the presumption that we were building our sideboards with the broader metagame in mind. Obviously if your environment is lacking, Manadrain, Workshops or Bazaars you can cut the REBs, R&R's and Crypts. I thought that was self implied?

[Toad]

Quote (BreathWeapon @ Dec. 11 2003,09:09)Nothing, just add them to the Metagame slots, because thats what Bloodmoon is ... a Metagame Card.

Then why did you wrote that just above ? You are contradicting yourself...

 

[BreathWeapon]

We must be confused on something, I don't understand where I stand in contradiction to myself.

If I was in a metagame where I wanted to use Bloodmoon, my SB would look like:

4xTormod's Crypt
4xRack and Ruin
4xRed Elemental Blast
3xBloodmoon

I.E. Bloodmoon takes up my 3 Metagame dependant slots.

[BaronSengir]

Now that a sort of "standard" SB has been worked out to handle most decks prison.dec shold have trouble dealing with, what kind of boarding strategies should we decide?

4 R&R
4 REB
4 Crypt
3 Blood Mn.

E.g.
For dragon:
-4 Tangle Wire (technically it won't help as dragon is fast combo)
+4 Crypt

[BuboniC]

I think 4 Rack and Ruin is to heavy. In MUD the Sideboards are really simple, here's mine:
4 Tormod's Crypt(Dragon/Rector)
3 Rack and Ruin(Mirror/whenever necesary)
3 Blood Moon (Every thing!  )
3 Red Elemtal Blast(Fish, Energy Flux, Hulk, anything with blue permanents/counters.)
2 Powder Keg(I run 2 MD, aggainst Hulk, Gat and random aggro also Fish)

I strongly reccomend thuse of 4 Powder Keg between the MD and SB, it and Chalice of the Void are the only removal of hate. Powder Keg is great vs. Decree Keeper (The best one) because the casting cost of tokens=0 so keg for 0 ruins the fun. Keg is great vs. GAT, Hulk, Keeper, Fish and random aggro. It is only bad vs dragon where you would go -2 Tangle Wire, and -2 Powder Keg and then +4 Tormod's Crypt.

[shadowspawn]

Quote I strongly reccomend thuse of 4 Powder Keg between the MD and SB, it and Chalice of the Void are the only removal of hate. Powder Keg is great vs. Decree Keeper (The best one) because the casting cost of tokens=0 so keg for 0 ruins the fun. Keg is great vs. GAT, Hulk, Keeper, Fish and random aggro.

Want Tech VS Keeper, Dryads and other lil creatures. GOBLIN SHARPSHOOTER!!

[Kerzkid11]

By thime time keeper has cycled decree for enough that you are in danger of losing, than you have already lost, by letting them get that mana in the first place. Shooter is also another nice target for (regular keeper's) 1 Fire/Ice and 2 Swords... or (scepter keeper's) 4 Fire/Ice and 2 Swords.

Shooter may be fun, but its not that great. Also, it cost 3 non-workshop mana. For the same cost you get blood moon for god's sake.

[Vegeta2711]

He was joking. And besides we all know Sparksmith is sooo much better.  

[BaronSengir]

no way.... obliterate is better  

[shadowspawn]

Everyone, stay on topic please, Thank you.

The should have sideboard options. What are they? I could list a few, if anyone else has some, plz list them.

Blood Moon
Mox Monkey
Duplicant(Debateable)
Triskelion(Also Debatable)
Pyrite Spellbomb(Trisk or this?)
Rack And Ruin(Near Obvious)
Reb(IMO, A good inclusion)
Tormod's Crypt
MindSlaver(Too Random?)
Ensnaring Bridge
Null Brooch
Powder Keg

Any More?I can't think of anymore, because those are the ones I've used and not thought of as completely stupid.

The "Mystery Card", This is really starting to get on my nerves, because it has so many options, and having many options gives me headache   . I think I should mention that a mystery card is a card that depends on your meta, whether it be online or not, You will always have a choice. A list of this is basically the same as that of a sideboard. Wouldn't a red wish for only artifacts be neat  

Humor: The Simple Life is The Stupidest Thing Ever

[BaronSengir]

Jester's Cap, Serrate Arrows, Caltrops (probly not, but it will get rid of infinite Sliver tokens), Sculpting Steel (this seems like good utility, but needs something out first to copy, for it to be worthwhile), Solemn Simulicrum (probly not)

[BreathWeapon]

For wMUD,

Just toss Bloodmoons into the 2x Mystery Slot for wMUD. It wins games just as easily as Mindslavers and at a fraction of the cost, you really can't get anything better than that MD. BM gives most decks headaches and removes the late game plan from Dragon. If you happen to see Null Rods a lot, Gorilla Shaman is a strong decision. With the rise of Control come Jan 1st, wOrb looks like a good idea again ... but I can't say its better than Bloodmoon. It really is weak vs Dragon incomparison to Bloodmoon.

In general, the only cards I side out of wMUD are either the Smokestacks, Tangle Wires or the Draw 7's depending on the match up.

Deadbolt doesn't have MD Metagame slots, so no worries here. I like to side in alternate kill conditions like Mindslaver, Karn and even Jester's Cap to keep my opponent off guard more than anything else. Remeber, your Karn = My Grim Monolith. Bloodmoon hasn't been that stellar for me in Deadbolt.

I only cut Tangle Wires and Draw 7's for Deadbolt.

[BaronSengir]

So this my deck as of now:

//NAME: Deadbolt v.3.0
// Type: Artifact Aggro-Prison
// Author: Sutra & Wuzzyman
// Format: Vintage
// Screws
    7 Mountain
    4 Mishra's Workshop
    1 Tolarian Academy
    4 Wasteland
    1 Strip Mine
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Mana Vault
// Keys
    4 Metalworker
    4 Goblin Welder
    4 Lodestone Myr
    1 Karn, Silver Golem
// Bolts
    4 Sphere of Resistance
    4 Tangle Wire
    4 Static Orb
    4 Chalice of the Void
// Doorknobs
    3 Mind's Eye
    1 Wheel of Fortune
    1 Memory Jar
SB:4 R&R
SB:4 Crypt
SB:4 REB
SB:3 Bloodmoon

I have a debatle question to make this deck more consistent. Given the Long.dec will die after Jan 1, Chalice is no longer as heavily needed as before. Dragon, the top combo, has a wider mana curve, and although good against Keeper and other decks with critical points (e.g. 2, hose mana drain) we may not need 4 chalice now.

During games, I've been finding (in about 4-5 out of 10 games) I've always been missing that one, crucial piece to completely seal the game. I needed a cheap, red mana tutor that would work for me. I hit upon the card gamble. Granted, its not instant speed, but I will be playing spells on my turn.

Propose:

-1 Chalice
+1 Gamble

Technically, Iam still running 4 chalice (because of tutor) and gamble is the equivalent of running 5 of every other card (if I am running 4x) in my deck.

Thoughs?

[BreathWeapon]

Gamble isn't a good card in wMUD. I would never cut anything for it in my MD, ever. Chalice is the best card wMUD has at its disposal, and it was the only reason I even bothered to build a wMUD deck. Without 4 Chalices, I wouldn't bother playing Prison or Workshop Aggro decks at all. No card ever said, " I win now" more than Chalice. Its like Control not playing with 4 FoW.

Have you found Bloodmoon to be any good in Deadbolt? I wasn't very impressed with it when I tried it. The only deck I ever sided them in for was Dragon to replace the Draw Sevens.

[BaronSengir]

Just curious, why would you consider Gamble as not good?

[shadowspawn]

Gamble as a Tutor has been thought of(See VGB's Bazaar Mud) and I personally think it's way too random for this deck, without Squees its not worth anything other than having luck, which a MUD player doesn't want to rely on. Chalice is strong, but not the strongest card Mud has, no, it's not a single card that makes this deck good but the lock component in general. I think that sums up how people should think when they try to change the deck, look at the lock and see if it can be maximized to it's full potential. I haven't tried Blood Moon in any deck for a while now, I really like it on paper because it can win you the game, however It seems to come down either too late or too early when I use it :-/. Also, I don't like running less then 3 maindeck because they don't come up often enough, unfortunately. I'm really thinking of trying Jester Cap's maindeck, they look really strong and recurring them could set up a better lock, also with knowledge of what he has in hand. For example, if he's playing Keeper and you Cap him and don't see Will or Balance or something, it's in their hand, this comes in really helpful if you bother to count the number of Fow's and Mana Drains so you can resolve a Bomb.

Sculpting Steel seems dead in WelderMud, and Caltrops isn't very good either compared to other choices. Also, has anyone else had positive results with Ankh of Mishra? I'm really starting to like this again .

[BaronSengir]

I would say since lots of decks seem to need less and less mana to either win or establish board control, Ankh would have a reduced impact that it did back in the day.

If you built a land bounce deck around that however, that would be pretty cool [/end random rant]

[shadowspawn]

One of the best Reason's Ankh was mentioned was because it helps vs the control matchup(they need quite a bit of mana for countering, drawing and winning.) And also for the Dragon Matchup because Ankh Takes Effect each time the perms come back in. Also Ankh+Sphere makes them play more lands, along with Tangle Wire and Smokestack.

If Ankh was Added to the Deck I think Tangle Wire would take it's place because Tangle Wire does Little in the Control Matchup.

[walking dude]

I like gamble but you have to be careful about playing it. It only fits in certain decks. If you go land gamble on turn 1 you have a 20% chance of losing the card you need. Also, if you keep the card you need you are still down 1 card from your hand. If a deck is packed with card draw (ie draw 7s, necro, and the like) this doesn’t matter because you gain that card back easily. In decks without card draw playing gamble is like a mulligan and we all know that hurts.

I would worry about gamble in prisonish decks because they win with a critical mass of lock components. Being down one card could potentially prevent that critical mass. So, in theory I’d be scared to try gamble in your deck. In practice, it might work you never really know till you test it.

[Toast]

first off it is less than 20% because you still have 6 cards in hand at the time you randomly discard, secondly with an empty hand it becomes a red entomb, and lastly VGB was not the one who first thought of putting it in WelderMUD he was just the first one to post it.

[shadowspawn]

Toast, I don't know everything about who and who didn't play Gamble, All I do know is that I really don't like it.