I have been sitting on this decklist for some time, but u...

[panne]

Quote (Dante @ Nov. 25 2003,18:41)

Quote (Chaos Blade @ Nov. 24 2003,20:16)I just saw Seal Of Removal in PTW's last sideboard. What are its advantages over boomerang and Maze??

It's a U answer to Dragon (either Dragon or Verdant Force).  Boomerang is UU and with the 5 strips, 4 Factories, LoA, and 2-4 Faerie Conclaves coming into play tapped, you might not have UU in time if they have a fast start and Maze doesn't do much against Dragon.

@Panne - Voidmage Prodigy DOES counter spells.  

voidmage prodigy - UU
Creature - Wizard 2/1
UU, Sacrifice a Wizard: Counter target spell. Morph U (You may play this face down as a 2/2 creature for 3. Turn it face up any time for its morph cost.)

You can sack it to itself OR a grim lavamancer (note the creature type is a wizard on the lavamancer)

Bill

Yes, It CAN counter, but doesent very often, and it sucks to leave UU open all the time. You want your mana to cast standstill/null rod/gays.

[Dante]

Quote (panne @ Nov. 26 2003,02:00)

Quote
@Panne - Voidmage Prodigy DOES counter spells.  

voidmage prodigy - UU
Creature - Wizard 2/1
UU, Sacrifice a Wizard: Counter target spell. Morph U (You may play this face down as a 2/2 creature for 3. Turn it face up any time for its morph cost.)

You can sack it to itself OR a grim lavamancer (note the creature type is a wizard on the lavamancer)

Bill

Yes, It CAN counter, but doesent very often, and it sucks to leave UU open all the time. You want your mana to cast standstill/null rod/gays.

Voidmage is typically one of the last creatures you'll cast as you'll be casting standstills, null rods, free cloud of fairies, etc in your early turns, that's why there were originally 3 of them instead of 4.  When you have FoW, daze, spiketail hatchling, all of which are "free" counters, the voidmage is a mid-late game counterspell.

With the wastelands, counters, standstills, and 7 dazes (spiketails included), you'll find yourself in the mid-late game often (or hopefully) when playing this deck.

Yes, having to leave UU open may suck at times, but when you're beating with previously cast creatures or manlands, it works out fine.  Also, its a free counter under Standstill and sometimes the threat of breaking standstill is worse for the opponent than actually breaking it.

Bill

[BreathWeapon]

I definately think the deck is Tier 1 goodness. Fish has a lot of flexibility to it, and the creature base is completely mutable to taste. Even the splash color leaves a lot to be considered, as White gives Meddeling Mage, STP, Disenchant ... which are all good.

One last note on the Stifle vs Daze conundrum, I think it highly depends on whether or not you want to include Spiketail Hatchling into your Creature base. I'm not a fan of the self detonating creatures, it makes Curiousity a much more questionable choice for the deck. Maybe we should be running Mask of Memory instead?

[wuaffiliate]

null rod is too important to the deck to run mask, rod is one of the cards i would never remove from the maindeck in a competative environment.

[GoogleBoots]

Quote (BreathWeapon @ Nov. 26 2003,10:58)One last note on the Stifle vs Daze conundrum, I think it highly depends on whether or not you want to include Spiketail Hatchling into your Creature base. I'm not a fan of the self detonating creatures, it makes Curiousity a much more questionable choice for the deck. Maybe we should be running Mask of Memory instead?

Mask of memory is a horrible choice for this deck. While it may be good in MonoU Fish, Gay/r has one BIG difference in the creature base: Grim Lavamancer. Mask only allows the draw via combat damage, unlike curiosity, so putting it on Grim is useless. If this were the case anyhow, you play Null Rod, so would this not damage your game more than your opponent's? It hinders you from doing the one thing the deck needs to win: Outdraw your opponent.

Poop

Edit: FUCK, beaten

[BreathWeapon]

Your probably right on Mask, I haven't found a deck yet that could make use of it

[Tripps]

Quote (GoogleBoots @ Nov. 26 2003,12:59)

Quote (BreathWeapon @ Nov. 26 2003,10:58)One last note on the Stifle vs Daze conundrum, I think it highly depends on whether or not you want to include Spiketail Hatchling into your Creature base. I'm not a fan of the self detonating creatures, it makes Curiousity a much more questionable choice for the deck. Maybe we should be running Mask of Memory instead?

Mask of memory is a horrible choice for this deck. While it may be good in MonoU Fish, Gay/r has one BIG difference in the creature base: Grim Lavamancer. Mask only allows the draw via combat damage, unlike curiosity, so putting it on Grim is useless. If this were the case anyhow, you play Null Rod, so would this not damage your game more than your opponent's? It hinders you from doing the one thing the deck needs to win: Outdraw your opponent.

Poop

Edit: FUCK, beaten

Actually, I swapped rod for CotV and Curiousities for Mask, and it seems ot work fine. Usually I don't ahve to equip the Lavamancer, I can get some other guy, but if I have to, I can go ahead and swign with him, because I probably won;t ahve much to remove that early anyway, nothing that I cant remove next turn after drawign 2 and discarding one. It digs deeper, and provides Lavamancer fodder. It is also a lot better with the sacrificing of Spiketail and voidmage than Curiousity is.

Test it before you knock it.

[Chaos Blade]

I just recently tried it and Im not liking it that much... I dont know why it seems good but just isnt in my testing.

[Tripps]

It is insane in my testing. I draw two, I drop one, I activate Lavamancer. It digs deeper than curiousity, while still fueling Lavamancers, and it stays around if you put it on a creature that sacs.

How has it not been working for you people in testing? Have you been using Stifle on its own ability or something? The card is amazing.

[Phele]

In the first moment i thought about the mask too, but there are four reasons speaking against it:

- It costs one mana more
- It is not fetchable
- Null Rod is simply better in this deck than CotV
- Grim can't shoot with it and draw cards

Too many in my eyes!

[Misemaster]

With the increased popularity of dragon as anyone considered removing daze for stifle and switching either spiketail hatchling or voidmage for rootwater thief. Daze and Stifle is a really close call but stifle has just been performing better for me lately. For the theifs your probably take out spiketail because there value is diminished with the removal of daze. Thoughts?

[Martyr]

I think that at least 3x Rootwater thieves belong in the main deck at all times, unless you're in a metagame with something like 90% sligh. They're just TOO disruptive against combo and Keeper.

[Chaos Blade]

Whats sweet with the unpowered version you can run both  . I think there both soo awesome andp powerful.

[Blommando]

against combo, if i survive to turn 2 i definately want to lay down null rod 100 times more than a rootwater thief that might save me next turn.
I dont believe that the thief has its place on gay red, its just much better with the original monoU lord build.

[Misemaster]

Well your logic seems flawed here as i was specifically talking about the dragon matchup were null rod will really not save you

[Caelestis]

That's irrevelent, considering you use Graveyard Hate and Stifles to deal with Dragon.

[Misemaster]

But thief is still fine against dragon, and i was not arguing that against long it was better i was talking about its overall effectiveness against the whole field. It seems that it could be better than either voidmage or spiketail. Espically spiketail since if you use stifle's main ,which i think is the right choice, its snergy with daze is gone. Which decreases its effectivness.

[wuaffiliate]

Quote (Tripps @ Nov. 27 2003,00:20)Actually, I swapped rod for CotV and Curiousities for Mask, and it seems ot work fine. Usually I don't ahve to equip the Lavamancer, I can get some other guy, but if I have to, I can go ahead and swign with him, because I probably won;t ahve much to remove that early anyway, nothing that I cant remove next turn after drawign 2 and discarding one. It digs deeper, and provides Lavamancer fodder. It is also a lot better with the sacrificing of Spiketail and voidmage than Curiousity is.

Test it before you knock it.

this deck needs to optimise its mana use. chalice takes alot of mana which you cannot spare to be effective.

mask isnt better than curiosity, it helps lavamancer, but ive really had no huge problems using him. running mask also loses you 4 pitchable blue cards for an over costed pos. not to mention its basically 3cc to enable it.

rod is strictly better in this deck than chalice without a doubt.

[Chaos Blade]

Tru Dat! Yep Gay decks are VERY mana intensive... thats why Gorilla Shaman and shit like that arent all that effective.

[Tijnie]

Quote (Chaos Blade @ Nov. 25 2003,19:05)its Gay Red what do yea expect  . So do you guys think this deck is Tier 1? Im starting to believe so...

I don't think so..  Since Fish has a great weakness for agrro and is not a really great deck in Bad Meta's... It's nice and ass kicking but I don't believe it will be Tier 1 ever...

[Chaos Blade]

I think Gay Red has the tools to majorly fuck up aggro with, Mazes, Seals, Boomerangs, AND the ALL MIGHTY Grim Lavamancer      .

[xaos]

Quote (Chaos Blade @ Nov. 27 2003,16:31)I think Gay Red has the tools to majorly fuck up aggro with, Mazes, Seals, Boomerangs, AND the ALL MIGHTY Grim Lavamancer      .

i agree... ive been playing gay/r for quite a while now, and even without the seals in the board, im finding that the more and more i play the deck, the less i lose to aggro.
  just last nite i took my build(pretty much same as PTW's first post in this thread, but -2 voidmage +1 misD +1 island) to a fairly aggro-run 16 player tourney.  i went 9-1-0, with my only loss in the finals due to a concession... the kid was really wanting to win, there wasnt any prize, and all i really wanted to do is see how gay/r works against the scrub meta that was around.  needless to say, i really like this deck, and think seal of removal would be a hot item in the board... where would you stick it in?
//SideBoard
3x Maze of Ith
3x Hurkyll's Recall
3x Rack and Ruin
3x Stifle
3x Fire/Ice

EDITS:  ive been wondering what everone else thinks about all the colorless mana sources in the deck... i understand how great 5 strip effects, and the factories are in this deck, but every time i remember needing to mulligan,  its from not having any colored sources of mana, even with that -1 kai +1 island.  personally, at running 24 mana sources(23 land, 1 sapphire), i dont think its feasible to add in any more, but on the same note, theres nothing i can deem worthy enough to take out for more blue sources. what does everyone else with experience with the deck think?

[Misemaster]

As phantom tape wurm has often said the manabase is just a necessary evil that comes with the deck. If you want to play the deck you gotta have the balls to deal with a few mulligans. There really isnt anything else u can do.

As to seal of removal i would probably take out the fire/ice because seal helps in the dragon matchup not just aggro. You should also get rid of hurkyll's for energy flux because many people are running mind's eye over cap making it not so hot.

[Chaos Blade]

Yea that would be a good place for it. Also mazes fuck up Suicide and Mask

[Pest]

Quote ive been wondering what everone else thinks about all the colorless mana sources in the deck... i understand how great 5 strip effects, and the factories are in this deck, but every time i remember needing to mulligan,  its from not having any colored sources of mana, even with that -1 kai +1 island.  personally, at running 24 mana sources(23 land, 1 sapphire), i dont think its feasible to add in any more, but on the same note, theres nothing i can deem worthy enough to take out for more blue sources. what does everyone else with experience with the deck think?

well, I've kept hands with just 2 Wastelands as the mana sources in my hand or a hand with 1 strip...and I have won many games like that. The manabase in this deck is optimal the way it is...and any changes would be unnecessary as of now.

As for you other Gay Red Players...this is the current SB I am running in a fairly versatile metagame. And I want some opinions plz.

3 REB
2 BEB
2 Rack and Ruin
2 Energy Flux
2 Stifle
2 Maze of Ith
2 Fire/Ice

So far I'm really likeing this, but for those of you who have been in a tournament field and have alot of experience SBing with this deck...your comments would be appreciated. Thanks.

[Chaos Blade]

How have the 3 REB been doing for you? I dont know if that many are needed..at most one

[Pest]

well, a while back I was an Ankh Sligh Player...and ALWAYS played with 8 Blasts. I love it...and I used to play 1 REB and 1 BEB at one point. But a friend of mine made a good point about how playing 1 REB and 1 BEB is kinda pointless...since your chances of drawing it are slim, and your chances of drawing it when you need it are slim as well. And I lost a few games in the mirror due to him haveing more REB's and BEB's. So I added more in...and I like it so far. I do see where your going with this, and it does take up SB space...but I still think haveing 3 REB's is better than 1.

[Misemaster]

Bebs have not really been shining for me of late. I really think the sb needs to have some crypts in it because it is hard to stop dragon if they can get into squee bazaar card advantage mode.

The configuration i would run would look like this,

3 REB
3 stifle
2 Rack and Ruin
2 Eneregy Flux
3 maze of ith
2 tormod's crypt

Fire/ice is good but you have lavamancer to deal with welder. I am considering moving stifle to the main so if i did the configuration may look something like this.

-3 stifle +2 fire/ice, 1 tormod's crypt

[Chaos Blade]

LOL use Gay Red players should have balls of steel and play 1 or 2  . So what decks you think are the decks weakness? Long?

[Misemaster]

Hmm i dont know long isnt that bad the deck does play force of will and null rod. Im not saying its great but its not bad. Dragon first game is really bad, after sb its not that scary. Workshop matches are really what i think are bad. The 3 casting cost answers in the sb if you dont get force of will are usually not enough.