This deck evolved from a suggestion from a friend to make...

[KrauserKrauser]

This deck evolved from a suggestion from a friend to make Soldier of Fortune.dec where Psychogenic Probe was to be the main kill.  Just to be safe I also included Underworld Dreams as an alternate kill.  Well needless to say the SoD.dec didn’t do too well in testing and the only really good method of killing was from the Dreams.  Since then, it has mutated from a mono-black build to B-R and now to its current UBr build.  The list is as follows.

Counter/Disruption:
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Mana Leak
3 Duress

Draw:
1 Ancestral Recall
3 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge

Big Draws:
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Time Spiral
1 Time Twister
1 Memory Jar

Kill/Search:
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yagmoth’s Will
4 Underworld Dreams

Mana Sources:
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
3 Badlands
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Dark Ritual

Sideboard:
2 Powder Keg
4 Stifle
3 Shattering Pulse
3 Tormod’s Crypt
3 Coffin Purge

I run in a fairly heavy control and dragon heavy environment and my sideboard kinda reflects that.  I am toying with the idea of main decking the stifles instead of the mana leaks but I really like the presence of more counters.  Also I have just thought of possibly adding in Fire/Ice but do not know exactly where I would fit it in.  Any help you guys could give me on this would be great.

I have tried many different variants of this deck some using Winds of Change, some using Howling Mines, some even using Anvil of Bogardan.  This current list is the most competitive of the builds that I have been able to put together and has had a fairly good record against the decks in my meta (Dragon, Welder, Keeper, etc.)

[The Advantage]

Dreams isnt terribly viable, but it can still win here and there depending on how competitive your meta is.

Cards I think you should consider:
Tinker(for Jar)
4th Duress
Windfall
Demonic Consultation
4th Brainstorm
Necro

I think you can drop the 4 AK's if you up the Brainstorm count to 4; Time Spiral is a draw 7, but it is very slow.  Perhaps consider Diminishing Returns in this slot, as you want to end the game as quickly as possible.  I would also consider a single Spoils of the Vault over Vampiric Tutor...sometimes you just need the card in your hand now.

Perhaps more basic lands should be considered in light of many decks packing 5 strip effects and/or Blood Moon these days.  Its easy to color screw someone who needs triple black.

[TheMightyWhiteyFord]

I've never tried Dreams with that much of a counter force.....but I did with a minimal one and it didn't turn out too well.

I agree with Tinker, it is a house with Jar, and it may double up the jar usage if you draw into it after using the Jar (I know, a lot of "jar"s there)

Look into a little more search. Something like Tainted Pact would go a long way for you.

Good luck, Dreams is a pretty fun deck  

[Robert the Swordsman]

I used to have a U/B/R Dreams deck a little while ago. It was extremely fun to play, and looked like this (at the time, I only had a Pearl for power and was just getting into competitive Type 1, so I'm well-aware of how sub-optimal this build is):

Land / Mana:
2 Maze of Ith
4 Underground Sea
4 Badlands
2 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 City of Brass
1 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring

Dreams:
4 Underworld Dreams
3 Megrim

Things that get Dreams:
1 Demonic Tutor

Things that protect Dreams:
4 Force of Will
4 Arcane Denial
4 Counterspell

Things that work well with Dreams:
4 Prosperity
4 Winds of Change
1 Time Spiral
1 Windfall
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Memory Jar
1 Braingeyser

Things that work well with Dreams that stick around:
3 Shocker
1 Dragon Mage

I recommend trying to fit Prosperity or Winds of Change in there, as they were both my main kill mechanism and seemed extremely effective, at least, at the time.

Time Spiral is amazingly cool with this deck, too.

At the time, I thought Arcane Denial would be great because they'd have to pay their two life to get the cards. It wasn't worth it, but it was fun while it lasted.

Good luck with this awesome archetype; it's a favorite of mine and I hope you do very well.

EDIT: Please, thefram, note the couple of times that I mentioned that the card wasn't good and this decklist was quite subpar.

[thefram]

I don't want to be mean, but it really bothers me when people post lists with Arcane Denial in them. I really think a decent knowledge of the concepts of real and virtual card advantage is needed when posting in this or any magic forum. Arcane Denial became entirely unviable when Mana Leak was printed since its only use was as a single blue mana counter, and giving your opponent +1 card advantage off what would otherwise be a tempo advantage for you.

In that light, could people please stop posting lists with Arcane Denial? Its just bad.

-thefram

[MethodXL]

@TheFram

     It really bothers me when people become take the time to belittle someone's "concepts of real and virtual card advantage" over a single card choice that the person stated in the thread you read it from that it was a bad card and the deck was subpar.  Evidently that should show you he has "real concepts of card advantage".

Constructive Criticism= Good
Random Bashing over something stupid= Bad    \n\n

[thefram]

Ashok, you would agree then that arcane denial is strictly inferior to another easily obtainable card (mana leak), and that it has been discussed to death that the card is in fact sub-optimal in its effect. I am not attempting to belittle anyone, just to make the statement clear that arcane denial nearly always a poor choice. In this case you are attempting to use underworld dreams to break the symmetry of denial. Why not then run wheel and deal? simply because you would be making dreams into a necro for your opponent and the card is dead without dreams on the table. Howling Mine would even be better because at least the draw effect is symmetrical in that case.

Let's not turn this into a flamewar, Ashok.

My general thoughts on underworld dreams, both powered and budget, is that there are better powered and unpowered decks to play for many reasons. Not the least of which is that part of the combo is giving your opponents cards, often more than you are getting.

-thefram

[KrauserKrauser]

I completely agree that it is definitely not the most competitive deck out there but as I am in the process of building a stronger deck (choosing between Dragon, Gay/r and Landstill) I am just trying to flesh out the deck that I started playing magic with.

A few comments on the cards suggested:

Winds of Change:
I tried this card in my orginal build and it never seemed to work the way I wanted it.  I always ended up with just Winds and a land or just the winds in my hand by the time I wanted to play the card and it didn't really do anything until the kill was on the table.

Arcane Denial:
It would definitely fill the spot for Mana Leak, in some ways even better with Denial being a hard counter but I took the Mana Leak because it was a better counter to use before I had my kill on the table.  Before the kill is on the table the Denial will just give card advantage to my opponent.

Dragon Mage:
Hadn't thought of that one.  It's an interesting idea but costs a ton of mana and could be stopped in many different ways that a simple sorcery would be able to get around.

Tinker:
Sounds good, I think I'll look into finding room for it.

Diminishing Returns/Windfall:
Also cards I had not thought of, will look into adding them in.

Thanks for the info, keep it coming!

[MethodXL]

Quote TheFram: My general thoughts on underworld dreams, both powered and budget, is that there are better powered and unpowered decks to play for many reasons. Not the least of which is that part of the combo is giving your opponents cards, often more than you are getting.


Well there is a tier for decks which is understood, but many people play decks because its a favorite/pet deck, or due to budget constraints they don't want to get different cards.

Im not saying that you are wrong with arcane denial, but what im trying to say is that by your first post, you don't offer any constructive criticism. Instead of spending the time writing about the inferiority of a card, you should suggest changes. You shouldn't say this card sucks and offer nothing else.  TMD is one of the best magic sites on the internet, because it truly is a community, and for a most part everyone wants to see everyone else get/do better.  Im not saying you weren't trying to help, im just saying that you really weren't by just blasting a card.  And even though you say you weren't belittling someone, but by reading your first post your basically saying that this card is bad, and he has no concepts of card advantage.  Maybe im arguing for the sake of arguing, but thats just my feelings. And I didn't mean for this to continue on this thread so PM or IM me when im online and we will talk there, instead of diverting the track of this post, which im sorry i did.


Another avenue would be to try Teferi's puzzlebox, Ive had fun with a puzzlebox/dreams deck, and I think its a cardchoice  you should think about.\n\n

[KrauserKrauser]

Oh yeah Puzzleboxes.

I can't count the number of times those things made some cards that I wanted go to the bottom of my deck, especially when I top deck what I need when I need it.  I tried it alot once I found out the awesome synergy it had with Dreams but found it to be lacking if I wanted the deck to be more consistent.

[MethodXL]

This seems kind of stupid, but it is only a suggestion.

This sounds kind of strange, but think about it.  I used to have a U/B dreams deck.  I packed the deck with a shitload of counters, everything from counterspell, mana leaks,forces, foil, and misdirections. Id also run 4 standstills, 4 impulse, 4 brainstorms.  The idea would be that every new hand i had was chock full of countermagic, and I would prevent anything my opponent did while they killed themselves with dreams/box/ and draw 7's.

[KrauserKrauser]

Interesting, definitely something different to try.

[ampeg21]

a freind of mine ran a deck like this.  i watched him play it a lot and even played it some.  i really think you should take another look at the winds of change.  it seemed to me like that was one of the best cards in the deck.

ps.  do you have a black vice in there?  works really good after the draw sevens and if you chose to play with howling mine.

[Crater Hellion]

Quote (thefram @ Dec. 15 2003,01:05)I don't want to be mean, but it really bothers me when people post lists with Arcane Denial in them. I really think a decent knowledge of the concepts of real and virtual card advantage is needed when posting in this or any magic forum. Arcane Denial became entirely unviable when Mana Leak was printed since its only use was as a single blue mana counter, and giving your opponent +1 card advantage off what would otherwise be a tempo advantage for you.

In that light, could people please stop posting lists with Arcane Denial? Its just bad.

-thefram

If you don't want to be mean, then don't be- it's that easy. Try to keep the ignorance down too however. Denial is obviously in the deck because of its inherent synergy with  the Dreams- although it is counter-productive to a key type one principle. The posters who were gracious enough to give their lists obviously didn't just toss in Arcane without thinking about Mana Leak. Another point is that if you're using it, you're probably going to win that turn anyway as a list with 8 counters is most likely using them defensively to protect their combo. In this case, Denial is just fine. Finally, Dreams is clearly the deck in which the player worries least about card advantage- it kills by letting (making) the opponent draw cards.

So I don't want to be mean, but it really bothers me when people post comments they clearly put marginal thought into and think they know what they are talking about because they say card advantage a few times.