Considering that...A.) Magic is expanding faster than eve...

[Tuthikin]

What if, on the flip side of this topic, power nine was BANNED and all the other cards that now define "vintage magic". What do you think the decks would be like??

[Jacob Orlove]

Quote (Tuthikin @ Nov. 18 2003,17:58)What if, on the flip side of this topic, power nine was BANNED and all the other cards that now define "vintage magic". What do you think the decks would be like??

They would resemble T1.5 decks to a large degree, I suspect.

What a coincidence, huh?

[centroles]

a. GAT did stimulate a great deal of deck building. in fact stax and a host of new decks came into being as a result of people to find a way to hate out GAT. and the fact is, that even during GAts dominance, there were many decks that had average to favorable match ups against it, the problem was that all these decks required the use of power.

b. the problem with GAt wasn't that it was unbeatable, the problem was that the decks that were strong enough to deal with it required the use of power. and very very few people have access to power. thus there was an outcry.

c. you maybe true. in an environment where everyone has power, there will INITIALLY be a large number of long, workshop, dragon, hulk decks. if anyone of these decks is so much more powerful than the others that it does end up dominating (possibly long though that deck requires a tremendous amount of skill), then surely, you would agree that lion's eye diamond deserves a restricting as smedden, one of the most skilled players of long.dec advocates. this is the only way to learn which cards are just powerful and which actually break the metagame.

d. once the metagames actually start being littered with good decks instead of the crap that people get away with playing now. players will get more skilled and there's little chance goblins would win any tourneys. BUT people WILL get sick of the playing the same decks eveyrone else plays and will start experimenting and exploring new tech, invent new decks and concepts and truly evolve type 1.

e. you people complain that so many people are bad players. how the hell are they supposed to be good players if so few people have power cards. you can't learn to play long.dec if you can't use power cards and very few people you know can afford to either. the community will become more skilled if they are given the tools to, if they were given the oppurtunity ot play with and against powered decks.

so in conclusions, reprints would rapidly expand the growth, popularity, skill and intelligence of type one.

[BuboniC]

Listen: Wizards couldnt care less about T1. If they did bring back moxen/ Good T1 then T2 would be broken, but i would be happy.

But there are two sides too this:

If i owned all the Power 9 and every good T1 card, then I would get mega pissed off. But what i notice is alot of players who have the cards go too five proxy tourneys, proxyless. They want too play against players who all are equal. This would make all players equal- but in my opinion- obviously WotC had no clue what they were doing back then in 93-94, and they made broken cards. This is proven very bad, I think all Wotc needs too do now is instead of restricting the cards that hurt them, make cards that hurt the cards. But once again, WotC just wants ta shut T1 up, but too each his own.

But if i didnt, I'd be so happy with my multiple sets of P9.

[jazzy kat]

QUOTE: you people complain that so many people are bad players. how the hell are they supposed to be good players if so few people have power cards. you can't learn to play long.dec if you can't use power cards and very few people you know can afford to either. the community will become more skilled if they are given the tools to, if they were given the oppurtunity ot play with and against powered decks.


Well, in tournaments I personally never said anyone was bad but there deck was scrubby (ie couldn't hang with the big dogs). Simple, they can just proxy up any list and test with me. In fact, I won a real small tourney, this past saturday then went to my local card store, and let everyone play against my deck, but they wanted to see how they could do against "the champ" = "the chimp" :B .



So, I never judge how good someone is until I actually see the mechanics they have, and their understanding of the game.

[centroles]

i clearly stated the reprints wouldn't be legal in type 1.

if powered players want to get satisfaction from their wins, surely they would welcome more people having access to power.

if players like the feeling they get from beating powered decks with powerless decks, no one's forcing them to use the reprints are they?

i wasn't attack you jazzy cat. but many good players often complain the so many vintage players are scrubby and inexperienced. the fact is, the only way you can get better is if you can play with powered cards and play against against powered decks. most players don't welcome proxys. and you won't get better just by playing the same person or same few people over and over again and agian either, you get better by playing many different people who all have power.

if you want the community  to get better, if you want vintage to grow and expand, if you want more deck experimentation and variety, you want more people to have access to power.

[pen cap chew]

evreything the unpowered players are crying out for is already here,you want collectable reprints of type 1 power?collectors edition looks pretty good and is inexpensive if thats too much money how much do you expect to pay for your "new" power
do you really want ugly reprints that are tourney legal only? i think that has already been addressed with proxies. how many sanctioned type 1 tournements have you been to latley? i think that the 5 proxie tournies have been pretty much pushed out the sanctioned tournements.should we start having proxie 10 tournements?
obviously i'm not in favor of more reprints

[Godder]

GET YOUR VESTED INTERESTS OUT OF MY SPORT!

Hopefully that caught your collective attention. In any case, some highly-placed member of WotC (I forget whom) mentioned something about liking to see Magic at the Olympics. Given current policy, there is NO CHANCE IN HELL of that happening. Reprints is only part of it, but it's a big part of it (as I said earlier, the DCI is also a big part of it).

Anyway, sorry to keep harping on the same point, but I think it's important for the health of Magic in the long run.

[pen cap chew]

healthy like type 2 or extended

(sarcasam)

[centroles]

type 2 is healthy as is extended, the only problem with them are the limited are the limited card pools and the need to buy new cards all the time.

[Jacob Orlove]

Quote (Godder @ Nov. 18 2003,21:12)GET YOUR VESTED INTERESTS OUT OF MY SPORT!

Hopefully that caught your collective attention. In any case, some highly-placed member of WotC (I forget whom) mentioned something about liking to see Magic at the Olympics. Given current policy, there is NO CHANCE IN HELL of that happening. Reprints is only part of it, but it's a big part of it (as I said earlier, the DCI is also a big part of it).

Anyway, sorry to keep harping on the same point, but I think it's important for the health of Magic in the long run.

By "magic", they don't mean Type 1. They'd clearly have to go with the most skill intensive formats: team rochester and individual booster draft. T1 is irrelevant because it will never be an olympic level event, so reprints (and DCI action) don't matter at all from anything other than an economic viewpoint.

So, let's take a quick look at that economic viewpoint: which formats make Wizards the most money? That's right, draft and sealed, with T2 coming in second, as it motivates pack sales by creating a demand for singles. These are the formats Wizards will go to great lengths to keep healthy and interesting, because these formats make them money. T1 simply does not, and any product that would result in more people playing T1 over T2/Draft is something Wizards cannot make without seriously hurting their profits. And Hasbro is unlikely to let that happen.

The Ferret was right, though. When T2 and draft stop making money for Wizards, they will reprint cards, because it'll be cheaper and more profitable than making new ones. At that point, though, Magic will stagnate and die. Yeah! Go reprints!

[Dr. Sylvan]

While I certainly see your point, Jacob, and there's no disputing that WotC makes less off Type 1 players, I think that we're important enough that reprints are a valid request, once the economics are demonstrated to neither harm Wizards' business nor egregiously reduce the value of players' collections.

Type 1 players' dedication can and does bring in new customers. It's rare to meet even an unPowered Vintage player who doesn't have years of play behind them, and frequently over the course of those years they teach new people to play (I'm personally responsible for bringing in a few myself, and causing people to continue playing when they otherwise would've quit).

If the reprints were as available as more modern cards, then there would be an increase in the people who play multiple formats; even now, people 'dabble' either into Type 1 or out of it into other formats (witness CrazyCarl's States participation; this is not uncommon--I even *gasp* draft about twice a month). With a more reasonable cost, there would be more mixing. And since when has having more accessible ways to enjoy the game caused someone to quit? Indeed, having players involved in a diversity of formats provides a safety net against one format's degeneracy--players still have somewhere to go even if something goes wrong and makes Type 2 boring for a season, or 1.X, or whatever else. (Obviously Urza block is not a supporting example here, but Psychatog surely is for its temporary ruination of Standard, and Tinker now in Extended.)

No matter what, Type 1 is a phenomenon of increased longevity among WotC's customers--people who get addicted to it tend to stay around longer than others. Even if they don't play other formats as much as the devotees of the cash cows, they're still supporting their local stores and proliferating Magic in general. I don't think that by making the cards for our format more generally available that there would be any negative effect on the number of players in the supported PT- and Worlds-level formats. These are not only the formats with the most prizes, but they would still be considerably more accessible. I don't think Type 1 could ever threaten the broad appeal of smaller-card-pool formats.

Type 1's endurance is a sign of the game's endurance, and its recent ascending popularity shows that many players are reaching a stage where they want to explore Constructed Magic in the broadest terms, with the oldest cards. A maturing player base is to be expected in a game as it gets older, and catering to this evolving demographic would be a sage business move.

I would argue that reprints will (1) In the long term, and possibly the short term, cause minimal damage to the elderly cards' value. (2) Cause more players to continue their interest in Magic for a longer period of time, causing them to continue spending and recruiting new players. (3) Not affect the continued prosperity of heavily-supported formats. (4) Make Type 1 less economics-dependant and more widely played.

As a matter of fact, I can't see anyone who loses on this. Reprints just make sense for the health of the game.

[Razvan]

Ric Flair is Tony Sculimbrene???

[ineffible]

it seems that some people don't want the reprints because it may hurt type 2? I personally don't know whether it will or not because I only play type 1, but what if wizards put out a set called Vintage, (only type 1 legal) It could have 150-300 cards that the players vote on, that would be tournament legal for type 1 only. It is a real long shot but it may work. (If it is that type 2 will be greatly affected by the increase of reprints.

how does this sound?

[Traveler]

Wizards cannot reprint anything on the reserved list without risking a lawsuit.  Therefore, this thread is rather pointless.  The only money card they can legally reprint is mana drain.

[jpmeyer]

There actually isn't a graying player base, since most people only play for 2-3 years before quitting according to WotC.

[Smmenen]

That's too bad - I wouldn't be suprised if the average age of the magic player is 2-3 years older than it was in 1995 though.


I used to think Magic reprints might be inevitible to keep type one going becuase the prices keep on rising.

I think there is another solution.  Force the DCI to allow proxies of certain cards - the DCI can facilitate this by printing proxies for power cards - perhaps gold bordered like they do for the Championship decks.  At some point, I will take a bold stand in a SCG article on this issue - but not in the near future.

Stephen Menendian

[centroles]

yes most players quit after two years, except for vintage players who have been playing for many years and will continue to do so and recruiting more people in the process if wizards doesn't allow vintage to stagnate or spread itself out too thin by the lack of power cards.

surely they realize how many more casual vintage players on the verge of quitting because they can't compete with the ultrafast decks that take control of the game turn 2 thanks to the power cards would come back and actually get a lot more involved in the game. not to mention all the profit wizards and it's dealers would generate from the sale of these reprints.

and honestly, i really doubt that list is legally binding and even if it is, i think it only forbids reprinting the card there is. reprinting it with completely new art and flavor should be just fine.

they could use the new 8th edition art as a way of suckering people to accept the new design cards and start playing with them in their decks as well.

[Smmenen]

If you are going to take a position advocating reprinting of cards - you have to get around the fact that the reprinted cards cannot impact type two and the other formats.  That makes it very difficult to do.  When I play Extended I do not want to face Black Lotus.  That's why we have Type One.  And they would never do it.

And so you would have to reprint in like a special promotional way - which makes it equally impractical becuase the cards will still be so scarce as to not really make a difference.

I think allowing proxies, wizards printed, in DCI tournaments is the answer.

STeve

[TimeBeing]

Quote There actually isn't a graying player base, since most people only play for 2-3 years before quitting according to WotC.

yeah but i doubt thats the type 1 crowd. I seems like most people who play T1 have been in it for a long time. (9 years here)

I still stand by my limited tin idea. so 2000 sets was low. make it 10,000. Put only the power 9 in them. Put them on the new gross card face. and see mana drain prices got over 100$

As for the Reserved list, yeah there could be a lawsuit, but i'm guessing Wizards hold the riight to change the list at any time with out notices.

And the fact that proxie tournments are very popular, makes one think that more people want to get into type 1. Its kind of like the old school pro tour. I takes a different person to walk in and try to play hard core type 1.

[Elyas Machera]

People need to stop saying that reprints would hugely devalue the value of power cards.  If a reprint happened wizards would be running a huge campaign to promote it.  Also, type 1 is notorious for being over priced to get into, but a cheap form of power would change that stereotype.  Lastly, since proxy tournaments have started, attendance has shot up.  With these ideas in mind, it seems that the reprinting of power would cause a great number of new players to come to the format.

Finally, if there is going to be a constantly growing community, cards must be made available.  As more players enter, cards are being taken up by collectors, players and washing machines.  Prices are all ready out of control and bring in new people will just bring in more collectors who what the good stuff.  Since proxy tournaments started, power has shot up in value.  Why would people buy power if they could just proxy it?  For the same reasons they will when there are bad versions available.  

Oh ya, and:

Don't worry, the ten year old you’re playing against will still crap their pants where you go Beta Tundra, Beta Lotus, Beta Ancestral.  The difference is they will go land, budget lotus, budget mox, welder, smokestack, instead of land, jackal pup and that ten year old will kick your ass.  

[Traveler]

They have a long standing policy regarding the reserved list.  They can't go back on it now.  If you can come up with a million good reasons to reprint power, and the only reason not to is the fact that they have a long standing pledge not to, ultimately that plege wins out.

They also have to be very careful with printing proxies that you can play in a sacntioned tournament because it can be construed as a reprinting.  Collectors edition reprints are strictly prohibited from sanctioned play because of this.

Regardless, there won't be a type 1 pro tour and type 1 tournaments are laregly unsactioned allowing for 5 proxy tournaments anyhow.  The current situation is the best situation.  If you so desire, run an unsanctioned event allowing an unlimted number of proxies.  Its really no different than a 5 proxy rule.

[Smmenen]

Type One is not the only format in the universe with expensive cards.  The biggest uses of the most expensive cards are: 1) Casual, 2) Type One, 3) Collectors, 4) Five Color, and then 5) 1.5.

I'm sensitive to the wishes of collectors, but not empathetic.

Printing Gold Bordered proxies would only seriously affect one of those groups if they specifically said that they could be used in place of specifically enumerated cards for sanctioned type one tournaments.  I am totally in favor of this for type one alone.  I also don't think that such a method would SERIOUSLY impact the price of these cards.  Power Nine would all remain seriously expensive cards.  

Steve\n\n

[Jacob Orlove]

Power Nine would make awesome judge's compensation foils. That might not have a huge impact on the scarcity, though.

And those foils are already only legal where the normal versions are legal.

Tournament legal proxies make no sense. Those are just reprints that would only be legal in T1, right? And having some legal gold bordered cards and some illegal ones would be terrible.

[David Hernandez]

Smmenen wrote:

Quote I think there is another solution.  Force the DCI to allow proxies of certain cards - the DCI can facilitate this by printing proxies for power cards - perhaps gold bordered like they do for the Championship decks.

Jacob Orlove wrote:

Quote Power Nine would make awesome judge's compensation foils. That might not have a huge impact on the scarcity, though.

I think both of these are excellent options.  

The foils would be worth a small fortune, and would be awesome for players IF the players actually got to keep them.  I get the feeling that the STORES would end up with these, and we would see them on eBay for $2,000 each.  Stores will offer the card winner a few hundred bucks cash on-the-spot, and the cards will never make it into circulation.

It's a great idea, but difficult to regulate.

The WoTC/DCI printed proxies are also a terrific idea, and would be easier to regulate.  I think the only drawback here comes down to PROFIT.  

WoTC would not make significant money on these, UNLESS they combined it with my idea of a "special pack" inside each and every Box of cards that come out in the "next release".  

So, it could be a "proxy pack" featuring the power-9. They could even print (in friendly gold letters) across the face of the card "Proxy: only valid in Vintage Tournament Play".

Dave.

[g0dzillA]

Quote (Traveler @ Nov. 19 2003,10:05)Wizards cannot reprint anything on the reserved list without risking a lawsuit.  Therefore, this thread is rather pointless.  The only money card they can legally reprint is mana drain.

An online announcement stating that Wizards won't reprint the Power 9 is not an implied legal contract with Magic players and collectors. The notion is absurd. Any class action suit attempted against WotC on these grounds would be decisively crushed in a court of law.

There might be some valid arguments against reprints, but this isn't one of them.

[Ric_Flair]

I think that there are two points here.  Vintage as a game of Magic would be greatly enhanced by easy access to power.  It would put people on equal footing.  Equal footing, low threshold of entry, and skill based games are good for Magic and for the format.

There is, however, something to be said for the fun and joy of getting Power.  I acquired my first piece of power recently, a Beta Ancestral (a tear wells up in my eye each time I think about it) and I appreciate it that much more, knowing that I have scraped and planned to get it.  That said, it is the process, the hunt that is what I enjoy so even after getting all of the P9 through this laborious process I would STILL be in favor of reprints.  They represent too much good for the format.  And remember: Having is not so pleasing a thing as wanting.  This is SO true when it comes to Power.

Quote Ric Flair is Tony Sculimbrene???

Yes.  My secret identity is out.  DAMNIT.

[centroles]

well one point worth mentioning. there is a big difference in the feeling you get from having a beta ancestral recall,  something you worked so hard to get to the feeling that you get from having a flashy proxy ancestral that has "Proxy legal in vintage play only" written across it's art in big bold letters.

Reprints won't take away the joy you get from having or getting authentic power cards. all it'll do is put everyone on equal footing and make vintage play more accesible, open and fun.  and no matter how nice it might feel to get authentic power cards, there are only so few of them to go around that only less than 1% of the vintage community will ever be able to get them. that fact alone justifies reprints.

[Crater Hellion]

Why do power cards necessarily have to be the cards to get reprinted? what about say bazaars? or the abyss?

[BrokenNut]

Crater Hellion brings up a good point. If you are going to do reprints, shouldn't it be for every card that is hard to obtain? P10, Bazaar, Mask, Drain, Workshop, The Abyss, Moat, and why stop there, Candelabrae of Tawnos, Berserk, Time Vault... the list can keep going. What would the limit for a reprinted card be? Price, Availability, perhaps a vote? I mean, for some people, even Cursed Scroll is still a hard thing to come by.

(From here on, power = All those cards up for possible reprinting I just mentioned)

As an aside note on the proxy tournament issue. We run a small sunday/monday night proxy tournament(unsanctioned) here, any number is allowed. This definately encourages a lot more people to play than otherwise would. 2 effects can be seen from this.

1) Most people still go and try to get the real power instead of relying on proxies. Perhaps this is just because they like to pimp thier decks, there are a LOT of foils here, or they are trying to make the deck legal for Sanctioned play. If it is just the first, then this keeps the prices for power up even if there would be reprints, people want to pimp thier deck and go for the original. If it's the second reason, well then reprinting power that would be tournament legal would have a detrimental effect on power prices.

2) There are almost no budget decks here. At least no bad ones that cannot win but that is the only thing the person plays because they cannot afford anything else type budget decks. Suicide still lives here, but that is because it is one of the best decks, especially for this metagame, usually 50%+ control decks. Reprinting tournament legal power would seriously alter the metagame. I have a feeling CoP:Red would completely dissapear from sideboards if there are still any being run.

Just wanted to bring those points up since I feel they relate to the discussion about reprints and thier effects on the game.