Hello everybody, i'm a newbie on this forum but not i...

[Willforce]

Hello everybody,
i'm a newbie on this forum but not in Mtg, i'm an italian player and for the first time i try to write something here...so excuse me for my english...

well, i'm playing tnt since a year and this is the list whit which i win a t1 in Massa Carrara (80 players) on august

 4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Taiga
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Grim Monolith
1 Mountain
4 Forest
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Wooded Foothills

4 Su-chi
4 Juggernaut
1 Masticora
2 Triskelion
1 Karn silver golem
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Anger
1 Squee
4 Goblin Welder
4 Survival
4 Tangle wire
1 Sylvan Library
1 Quirion Ranger
1 colossus
1 tetravus
Sideboard:
4 Blood moon
4 REB
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Jester's Cap
1 Druid Lyrist
2 naturalize


I've read a lot of replies in the others forum...about using Simulacrum and other stuff, and this is my opinion:

Tnt is an aggro deck so it has to kill very quickly the opponent, putting him under pressure since the first turn, more chance to put a fat guy at the first turn is the right way to do, you have to push down his lifepoints and the simulacrum doesn't do it.

it is a nice engine to draw and clear the deck , but only if:
a) you have it
b) you have an active welder (oh....very easy...)
c) you have survival in play (oh...very easy...)
d) you have a good number of basic land

now...i think that tangle wire now is useless, because fish has a strong number of permanent's , tendrills idem, and dragon is quickly enough to don't mind about it. Atog can play istant and landstill is a control deck...so it doesn't mind about.

so i cut tangle wire for blue.

Blue gives you the boost u need to draw (ancestrall, thirst for knowledge...) to kill (time walk) to "get what u need" (tinker)

so the basic land are at max 1 or 2.

In the same post i've read some bad comments about silvan library... foolish... it (the library) is the replies at the question..."which card will i draw?" that is the problem of tnt decks.

i have read about pentavus (ridicolous...it costs to much) bosh (< colossus) elf replica...(argh!!!!) these are all "dead cards" you draw this praying for a fat guys and then you cry.

i'm considering to play 2 silvan library
i've cutted the tetravus and changed the side for the new metagame (italian tendrills , a very secure combo, lock stacks welder mud , atog , fish)

now the list is:

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Taiga
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
2 windwepth etc...
2 tropical
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Wooded Foothills
1 tree of tales

4 Su-chi
1 Heretic Viashin
4 Juggernaut
1 Masticora
2 Triskelion
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Anger
1 Squee
4 Goblin Welder
4 Survival
1 time walk
1 ancestrall
1 tinker
2 Sylvan Library
1 Quirion Ranger
1 colossus

SIDEBOARD:
3Blood moon
4 REB
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 null rod
1 bottle gnomes
2 r&r
1 free slot

i'm thinking about to play 2 cotv maindecks or other stuff like angel or mind's eye or....boh.


suggest? (i have to remember u all that we don't have a lot of dragon decks in our metagame)


p.s a list like this last have win Massa Carrara's last T1 with 140 players (a mine teammate)

[BuboniC]

About Mind's Eye:
TnT doesn't need it, it has survival of the Fittest as an engine, and doesnt need a second.

Also:
I think Platinum Angel would help, along with Solemn Simulacrum (I know you said it wasnt good, but it is incredible with just a welder out, you draw a card, and get land advantage. What about Wonder? Whats wrong with nothing being able to block you, and having levitating Goblin Welders   .

[Willforce]

if u play tricolor version simulacrum is useless u only draw and tap a welder. in a bicolour version is nice but you have to tap a welder,

when u draw with the ability of the simulacrum u usually think.. i hope to draw a fat guy.

so...i prefer to tap my welder to put in juggy or trisk or colossous, and for drawing i watch 3 card and chose...than i shuffle or by fetch or by survival.. and if i have survival + green mana+ welder active i have win vithout simulacraum

and simulacrum as i sayd is useless without welder and survival...

a stange loop  

[Lord of the Goats]

coth is sick, imo it clearly takes the place of utility creatures, and at the very least it's better than tangle wire.

on simulacrum, if you haven't tested it i strongly suggest you do. it may look like it needs welder to be good, or that it's just not a fast enough clock... but that's suprisingly misleading. however, the free land that simulacrum gets you accelerates you to 6 mana on turn 2... which turns trisk into a turn 2 drop and lets you drop turn 1 simulacrum, turn 2 survival and jug... something that you previously had to choose between. besides, my testing from when hulk was dominant showed that a first turn 4/4 wasn't enough as a clock and it needed to preform some sort of other function as well in order to be effective. so if a 4/4 isn't big enough we need something bigger or something that provides another valuable function.

out of your list of things that make simulacrum good...

a) having "x" can be argued about any given card, including su-chi
b) welder isn't necessary although having welder is a nice bonus
c) who fetches simulacrum when you can just win? anger, squee, trisk, welder will all be gotten first. if anything survival is better because of simulacrum because it's easier to find your green sources. just like welder, running survival is a nice bonus but you don't need it in play to make simulacrum effective
d) yes, you do need a good number of basic lands... but i'd consider 3-4 plenty because if you want to fetch more, you're winning, and 4 lands will let you hard cast your fat.

and unless you forgot to list something major in your list, ancestral, walk and tinker aren't worth the loss of simulcrum imo. also, sice you currently have niether wire nor cotv, yo have a lot of room... you could run su-chi and simulacrum...

[Smash]

You used to play TnT a lot didn't you? Do you have any ideas of a post Mirrodin build?

I have tried 4 tangle + 4 cotv... but that really clogs your hand too much. So it looks like I would run 4 cotv, and 4 su-chis for tangles. I do like 3 Jens in there somewhere.\n\n

[Jakedasnake]

I've been playing around with TnT a bit, and Jens are just AMAZING. Quite often you can accelerate one out turn 1(like mentioned) to get a huge boost. No matter how you look at it, he still swings, every turn too. If he dies in combat, you can weld him back soon enough, and that's where it goes crazy. I've really never had a time that I don't just love having a Jens. Including 3 is almost mandatory in my opinion.

[Willforce]

well...
if i have a simulacrum in play and i have a triskelion in hand...to put down on turn 2... to make 4 damage... and a welder ...maybe my oppenent is sleeping.

i prefer to have a 4\4 down on first turn (not very difficult) and a welder or a survival or another juggy\su-chi at least a time walk or a Silvan Loibrary  to win on turn 2..

i don't want to wait for kill, and i always want my welder UNTAP to preserve my fat guys to attack the next turn, i'm not scared by drawing with 6 fetch and 2 sylvan i have always the guy or the utility in my hand, and i can draw 2 just for 4 lifepoints...my tnt is not a control deck is an aggro that every turn put down or a fat guy or a welder or a survival... to make you under pressure...other things are useless

[Lord of the Goats]

Quote (Willforce @ Dec. 12 2003,07:16)well...
if i have a simulacrum in play and i have a triskelion in hand...to put down on turn 2... to make 4 damage... and a welder ...maybe my oppenent is sleeping.

i prefer to have a 4\4 down on first turn (not very difficult) and a welder or a survival or another juggy\su-chi at least a time walk or a Silvan Loibrary  to win on turn 2..

i don't want to wait for kill, and i always want my welder UNTAP to preserve my fat guys to attack the next turn, i'm not scared by drawing with 6 fetch and 2 sylvan i have always the guy or the utility in my hand, and i can draw 2 just for 4 lifepoints...my tnt is not a control deck is an aggro that every turn put down or a fat guy or a welder or a survival... to make you under pressure...other things are useless

the point about simulacrum is that it lets you play multiple threats on turn 2, which stretches a control players resources. it's half of the reason tangle wire was good in the first place: you could drop fat first turn and then welder/survival and wire on turn 2. it doesn't matter that they don't both resolve, it matters that you've made them expend resources that are very costly to expend that early in the game (like fow is 2 for 1 card advantage, or that they'll need to cunning wish before thay have enough mana to cast whatever they get which leaves them open to chalice).  being able to drop a turn 2 trisk is only important because it means you're not sitting around waiting to hit 6 mana as was often the case in the past so that means less dead cards.

putting down 1 threat per turn isn't enough anymore. before hulk came out it was, but since then control has evolved and that's no longer enough to beat it. thus acelerating your mana and playing threats faster is more important than playing fat threats, or drawing cards. tnt can no longer be an aggro deck, it needs chalice, and it needs some other form of disruption as well. in addition it needs to reliably be able to cast hate on turn 2 to beat dragon. also, turn 2 is the fundemental turn in type 1 so if we can't stall until after that, fat isn't an issue because it just isn't fast enough.  

fnally, just because you run simulacrum doesn't mean you have to weld it as a first priority, i'd say, collussus/trisk/platinum angel/jug are all better things to weld in. so keep your welders untapped to save your guys, it's a much better play than trying to abuse simulacrum

[Deadpool]

No artifact lands???

I think they would help speed you up. They do pretty much the same as basics, and they are weldable. Which keeps other artifacts around... like not haveing to weld out Su-Chi's... and stuff.

Also, I think the Solemn is not needed and all arond not that good in the deck.

[Hyperion]

Artifact lands get hit by Wasteland and Null Rod, and don't let you operate as well under a Blood Moon. They also make fetch lands and Solemn Simulacrum less useful / useless, respectively.

I initially threw out Simulcrum as well but have really come around to it. The format has sped up too much for the old TNT's purely aggressive strategy to work anymore, so it has to make up for that by shifting to a more aggro-control approach - which is what Lord of the Goats was getting at.

[ctthespian]

@Willforce:  You realize that you have no basic forests for running under a blood moon.  With so much non-basic hate in many environments that could be a problem.  Now maybe you don't have that much non basic hate in your metagame, but the 3 Moons in your side could cause problems.

@Lord of the Goats:  How are chalices that great?  I don't see the use in TNT.  I can see them being good after you succesfully cast a survival and being set at 2.  Maybe I'm overlooking the way to use them.  Enlighten me...

Solems are a good choice.  Much better than Su-Chi in my opinion.  They do help smooth out a shaky mana base and even accelerate your mana if nothing is destroyed by your opponent.

Pyrostatic Pillars are a house.  They own control and help win games.  Against most any T1 deck other than MUD variants (which TNT should have a better win ration against) pillars are a damage dealing fiend.  I think running 3 pillars is key.  I feel that they either deal damage in a much superior way to inferior fat like Su-Chi.  Or slow your opponent down in a simialr way to Tangle Wire.  Either way the goal of dealing the 20 damage necessary to win is eased with pillars in play.  In short I think pilliars have incredible synergy with TNT.

Taking that into consideration I feel that you can run less fat and more tech against decks in your metagame.  Dragon being the worst matchup for TNT these days.

[jcb193]

If you are going to play Tinker, i would seriously consider Memory Jar or Platinum angel.  I played a lot of R/u/G TNT and i can't tell you how often i Tinkered for Memory Jar (with Triskelion being the only other target in most cases).

Good luck!

[Hi-Val]

Memory Jar = Sexy.

Welders and Jar, combined with huge fat creatures ends games pretty quickly.

Along the lines of Wonder, have you thought about Mindslaver? Somewhat radical idea, but if you are alpha striking with everything, you can have the opponent choose not to block, and it offers a bit more utility than Wonder at times. Problem, of course, being that it cannot be Survivaled out and you have to use Tinker if you really want it.

Btw, your English is pretty good! Welcome to TMD!

[Smash]

Why do people run wheel over jar? Even with no tinker, jar is a better card to hit than wheel.

[Willforce]

hi all, thank you guys for the replies... this work really helps me.

ABout Blood moon : i side in only against manlands deck, combo, atog...in this match the blood moon is something very near to "match winner" i prefer (against this deck) to don't have green mana and lock down my opponent.

about Wonder: really nice card, but it is a wood too much times, and i have to tap 2 for survival to activate it, and i need an island...well to much condition...i have only 2 island

about Jar and Wire: nice cards these too, but when i play against a stack welder mud or smiliar i don't want to put any artifact in my graveyeard, so my opponent can't swap my fat guys, this is the condition to win against prison.dec... i swap you no

otherwise i have played wire when i win my first tournament...but...the coming of a lot of stax had make it out.

i have thought about mindlaver! but it's simply an artifact; ok i have tinker, and i have silvan to draw and find...but i prefer something else instead, just because i cant it tutorize by survival.

Platinum angel is actually in test, this sunday i have a tournament (we aspect for 120 players) and i have to chose about angel or not.

[BreathWeapon]

If you are running Tinker, 1xMindslaver is really THAT good. It allows TnT to win outside of Aggro beat down or buys a lot of time vs the opponent with an active Welder.

[Lord of the Goats]

Quote (ctthespian @ Dec. 12 2003,10:45)@Lord of the Goats:  How are chalices that great?  I don't see the use in TNT.  I can see them being good after you succesfully cast a survival and being set at 2.  Maybe I'm overlooking the way to use them.  Enlighten me...

well, while i am still testing chalice, you reliably drop it for 2 on first turn. that cuts off all of dragon's reanimation except necromancy which leaves them with 2-3 animation spells. against tog that cuts off mutaton, drain, ak, naturalize scroll, smother, fire/ice. basically, if tog runs deed (which a lot aren't) then they have removal... if not then they just don't. it can also cut off things like plow even when it's imprinted on a scepter.

the fact that you have to trade survival for 2 cc stuff can be really annoying, but if it takes out most of dragon's reanimation, it's worth it... you don't care about survival anyway. likewise, rtrading survival for all of hulks draw and removal seems like a solid idea to me. even though setting chalice for 1 to take out their removal deny's you wellder, it also eliminates the need for it since they cant kill your stuff.

all in all, they're solid and help as disruption, they're better than wires so far although they do take more getting used to. they'll get sided out a lot i'm pretty sure but they're a house against some of your tougher matchups.. namely hulk and dragon

[Willforce]

Hello, i'm here just for say that with the list i've post with 2 sylvan 2 cotv and the platinum i made the 4th place in a 110 people in Ms.

i've defeat 3 combo (1 rector trix 2 dragon), 2 monoblack chalice, 1 gay fish,

i lose only by tnt and in semifinal by TPS

[Maxx Matt]

@Hi Will. I think that if you add S. Simulacrum to the deck you can rise the win rate against a deck ( CHalice-Sceter Keeper ) agaisnt which you CAN'T really win after siding (oh, yeah.. you can lose, if you don't Mull to 5 agaisnt a SuperGollum and draw 2 Decree in 3 Turns and he resolve a 3 turn COllossusus... ).

Any of your treats are ridicoulous if compared to
2 R&R
2 Disenchant
8 COunter
1 F/I
3 StP
2 Shaman
2 Wish

Youronly REAL treat is the evergreen Blood Moon. After resolving ut you can win. If not you lose.

Solemn Simulacrum let you thin you deck, capitalize the Welder ability to SwapThings and maybe use them as a SubstitutiveDrawEngine agaisnt deck that can lock and smash you ( HUlk and Keeper).

and 4 Su-Chies are usually 8-12 damages during your own combat phase from my artfact removals.

I sugest you to test them. If they didn't function, then, i'll glasly hear all you results.

Very Very Very good job smashing 3 combos during hte tourney!

[Lord of the Goats]

Quote (Willforce @ Dec. 16 2003,07:41)Hello, i'm here just for say that with the list i've post with 2 sylvan 2 cotv and the platinum i made the 4th place in a 110 people in Ms.

i've defeat 3 combo (1 rector trix 2 dragon), 2 monoblack chalice, 1 gay fish,

i lose only by tnt and in semifinal by TPS

very nice, it's always nice to see tnt do well. are you going to put a report up, i'm fairly certin we'd all like to see it.


maxx matt, he's running a full complement of strips. you can't rely on being able to cast all of those all the time. besides, if he's any good (which top 4 in a 104 person tourney seems to state) he knows how to play around mana drain,and  rack and ruin. in addition, chalice is very key in avoiding such removal.

anyway, i agree with your sentiments about runing simulacrum.. but i think you've overstated in that it is a winnable matchup post sb regardless.

[Maxx Matt]

@LordofGoats. Of course you couldn't have known this, but beiside the fact that I knew Willforce personally, due to the fact that we fight each other during a lot of tourneys, I in primis Knew All His Good Playing Abilities.

The point is Even if he is a good and talented player He Can't be able to handle all the treats that I can produce for his deck, even with the complete set of strips. Many intimate tests reveal that. After side OR any Workshop.dec resolve a Blood Moon And/Or prevent me from using any Mox more than "One Shot" or "normally" he should lose.

What is your point about CotV against the Control Player?
Post Side if he set a cc from 1 up to 3 I can work around them using one of my differents cc solution to them, explode with some broken spell and slowing his victory getting rid of Welder.

Even if I realized on my skin that beating a TnT as the one proposed by Willforce is more difficult than beating any other Workshop.dec because of his aggro nature, I think that something have to change in the build not to have a win/lose rate at least of 1/2.

I assured to all TnT players all aroudn the world that having, even for 1 or 2 turns a Welder and a Simulacrum is far better than beating with Su-Chi.

Even if the TnT player want to compare S.S. with Su-Chi, all the abilites that it packs in are really good and not only on chart.
Beating the opponent should be the goal of TnT, but I see too much players die because of their strong starts ( Juggy turn 1, Sichi turn 2 or SotF and or Welder.. ) and then merely lose to a countless chain of Bad Draws. Many times any control player WON'T counter or fear a first turn tnt fatties . He focus himself on trying to fight the TnT real problem ( Welder and SotF ) taking 1 o2 attack from it and getting rid of it only after gaining some INEVITABLE card advantage. At this point the TnT player usually can only Topdeck well... and So.SI could help on this porpouse.

Sylvan Library help you to dig and Draw ( without su-chi you can really abuse of it without any fear.. ) an SO.SI. is IMHO, the right card to fill the Su-Chi slot nowadays.

Tell me if I'm wrong or if you have different test results

[Smash]

Jens is nice. He replaces tangle wires. So you are left with

4 Jugs
4 Su-Chis
3 Jens

then 4 metagame spots to either wire or COTV.

[Willforce]

the only thing i was thinking about in these days  was...which card can i cut for So.Si.

these are: Ancestrall time walk tinker and a su chi.

Ancestrall is always a good Feint (argh i don't know the english world for "abbocco" )
Time Walk...ok is Time Walk
Tinker let me find the artifact i need especially after siding in my anticombo artifacts (null rod, sphere.)
-----------
after this:
I'm searchin SO.SI. to try them in playtest.
------------
about keeper...the only reason because i play 4 REB in side is Keeper, and even if your treats are white or red, i can prevent yoour for draw...my only way? i don't know...

[Smash]

You don't want blue if you run jens. You need at least 1 mount. and 3 forests in there... and strip effects > anything blue gives.

Blue was cut from most builds like a year ago...

[Maxx Matt]

@will . glad to see so much respect, but I fear that the ReB are not no autolose to Atog too..

Aside joking, I think that if you cut the blu entirely the Job should be done and really effective, even not substituting Su-Chi with SoSi.

the only reason to keep blu is Walk.

If you play with this goal in mind I think that this manabase should work, even if I haven't tested it yet ( maybe tonight with the Team... ):


4 Fetchland
4 Taiga
4 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Tropical
4 Workshop
7 SoLoMoxen
4 Strips

In this way you should be able to fetch the needed blu for the lone Walk and not to have a bad sinergy with SoSi.

---------

Not to mention that your choice to run 4 Wire is perfect even in a fullcombofield, I recommend you to test a "MoreBlu" with Brainstorm as fuel for your draws.

I suggest
-2 So.Si. ( thinking about his 4of use... )
-2 Sylvan Library
+4 Brainstorm

about the lands count, you can keep 3 basic lands and with the use of  brainstorms you can reshuflle them via SotF or Fetch, if they popup in your hands, not to vanify the work of the Good SoSi.

Not sure if it would work. Just some thoughts predinner


---------

Why null rod in the side instead of CotV? you can cast them up to 2 without losing so much and potentially even on your first turn

---------

[Willforce]

@smash: even if blue was cut a years ago with this build i and a mine teammate made wonderful results. Remind that we have a different metagame and a different play\way

@Maxx: as u can see i have 2 cotv maindeck ,null rod ase usefull just for their mana cost, mox monkey doesen't eat them so easily, and they stops sol ring and mana vault. and i can't cast 2 cotv at the same M.C. so if my opponent plays chain i take it in my ....buo del culo... so i usually try to cast first a cotv at 0 and then a null rod.

ABout brainstorm...i prefer to have an "all turn choice" like sylvan, especially if i cut blue.

the manabase you suggest i think is pretty good
thx