The following is a quote from a post that a brand new bas...

[shorinryu12]

Quote (Flurp™ @ Dec. 14 2003,11:30)I know that this has been discused before, but it never really ended in a clear answer.  Should GAT run red?  Mostly red gives good SB options and Fire/ice, but it hurts the mana base.  In GAT Most of your lands are going to be non-basics anyway so even without red waistlands will always have a target, but things like bloodmoon and PoP will become better against you.  In my build I run scepter so red has been working very well because fire/ice is one of the best scepter targets.  Red really improves your workshow matchup, because you now can run Rack and Ruin and Atifact Mutation in the side.

I agree flurp.I see red becoming stronger and splashed into more decks every week. Does mox monkey belong in GAT? Or is it to weak to earn a MD slot. how does the scepter work ?

[Flurp™]

Mox monkey Is hard to fit into GAT, but if you play in a heavily powered meta then 1 or 2 might be worth it, Its mostly a metagame choice.

[Godot]

Quote but it never really ended in a clear answer.  Should GAT run red?

Mainly since there is no clear answer.  I think this is purely a metagame decision.  Do you face enough artifact prison that you need rack and ruin or similar such things?  If you answer yes to that, well then you either splash red or play a different deck.  Furthermore considering the recent resurgence in Blood Moon use, I think the 3-color version will be more stable/safe.

As for mox monkey, I think if you wanna be playing with mox monkey then you should probably be playing hulk.  It might just be the way I play the deck, but the last thing I wanna do is spend time and resources slowing my opponenent down.  This deck wants to put your opponent back on their heels quickly through big fast beatz or developing your own board, not by slowing them down.  If you play the deck as though its keeper, then the mox monkey might work, but to me it goes against the basic premise of what GAT tries to do.  Granted, GAT got more controllish with the loss of Gush, but I dont think it needs be played like its keeper quite yet.

Its for these same reasons that I dont like scepter(in theory), although Im still testing them anyway.  Sometimes they're the hizzouse other times they aint.  Frankly, Im gonna look for a more consistent option.

[Flurp™]

I have been doing very well with scepters in my build.  But you have to take into consideration that I play in an aggro heavy meta, where scepter is best.  As for red the red splash is just as much for Fire/Ice as it is for artifact destruction.  With scepter Fire/Ice is such a house, and even though I dont see any workshop decks (people in my area cant afford workshops, Its all unpowered) I see lots of artifact decks that make the red splash great.

[David Hernandez]

GAT builds ran red.  It was/is called "GAT/r".  VERY strong.  You will find it discussed in the following link:

http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin....hl=gatr

it is worth studying.

When players started using GAT/r, they were winning more, which is impressive considering that GAT was the best deck already.  I'm not sure where it went after the restriction of Gush...mostly, GAT players started running Hulk (if they wanted to continue playing with Psychatogs).  Others went on to different decks entirely (like Long and Dragon and Rector Tendril's and Stax/WelderMUD etc.).

Look through the links that i posted...some of you guys are going around in circles, repeating what has been said in other posts (and in other threads).  You should be building on what was there before, and moving the deck forward from today.  

If you love playing GAT, then opportunities for it to be a championship deck again may be around the corner, since some decks are going to suffer with the loss of Burning Wish and Lions Eye Diamond.

Also, to see some of the theory behind Hulk, look at this post by Zhalfirin (he won the Nationals T1 Side event when he beat me with GAT in the final round): http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=1;t=8715

EDIT: there is another thread in the Vintage area, located here: http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin....y164020

Grand Inquisitor is running 3 Dryad's, 2 Intuition, and 2 Stifle's.  He knows this deck, so look at what he has to say and then test it for yourself.  Just because I'm not comfortable with certain cards doesn't make me right.

dave.\n\n

[Caelestis]

@David Hernandez:

The thread is quite informative - for a metagame of the past. The metagame has changed a lot since, the most fundemental of that the restriction of Gush . I am not sure that there is any point referring to that for GaT/r.

Regardless, GaT/r remains a strong option, as seen in the new Vintage thread. However, as it was noted before, it is mainly a Metagame concern.

I think you are probably wrong on the Stifle issue. It is pretty much an all-purpose card. The potential that it has to save you from a strip effects, they hurt a lot when they come in multiples, even for a 3c build. As well as hose several other cards that are commonly seen in this metagame.

However, I do side with you on the Intuition issue - I don't quite like it....

@ Grand Inquisitor (if you even look at the unreggies section)

Why did you consider the Intuition? Yes, I saw the explaination given, however, I am not quite satisified with it. The Deep Anals can be quite effective in conjunction with Intuition, and there can be nasty choices for your opponents to make, but I stand by the point that I have given before...you can accomplish a lot more with other cards, Mystical/Scroll both gives you a better option. Besides, now that Tog is no longer such a great focus on the deck, I think that the possibility to use Skeletal Scrying (SB wish option, for now, I suppose) is coming back. You still get a gain for Tog, but it is more efficient than Deep Anal in that you are not dependent on the Drain or the Intuition.

Also, while you did give an opening for 4 Dryads, why are there not 4 in an aggro heavy metagame? In my experience, they grow fast enough to become something to be reckoned with in a matter of a turn, at worse two. Perhaps cutting back on the Cunning Wish and killing the Intuition, and leaning for a more Dark Seed like build (such as the one that placed in Dulmen back in October). The mana usage there seems to be a lot more efficient.

At last, the 4c, how stable is the manabase? I have done testing with 4c builds (Red, to be exact) when I was trying out Scepter, however, I have nearly no experience for it without Scepter. Is it much different from your deck in Waterbury?

[Flurp™]

I think that the mana base can support red, I have been doing it for a while now, and its almost no different than the 3c version.  But my deck is unpowered so it has more room for lands (I am running 4 underground sea, tropical island, and volcanic with 6 fetches and 2 islands).

Quote  I think that the possibility to use Skeletal Scrying (SB wish option, for now, I suppose) is coming back

I really dont like scrying as a wish target, even though the deck is less focused around tog many games are still finished with it.  I think that for a wish target Fact of Fiction should be enough card drawing.

[Ultima]

As the thread in Vintage is going to; Red improves Control and Workshop matchups while White improves the Aggro matchs.

Honestly, the 3-color version is viable but is vastly improves with red.  The 3-color version is viable enough in fact that there really doesn't need to be any red MD.  Red tends to come in games 2-3 and is usually enough to push GAT over the top against control, workshop, and aggro-control.

GAT worst matchup right now is madness.  This is the thing that is consuming my and GI's time in trying to resolve.

The White splash beats Madness, Stompy and the rest of aggro in the end but now the deck loses to Workshop, so the issue is trying to find the medium.

[Grand Inquisitor]

As is self-evident, yes, I do check the Basic User forum, however not as frequently as others.

Many good points have been brought up by Caelestis:

Quote Why did you consider the Intuition

This started when I played Hulk for a tournament in November.  The deck performed very well, and what became extremely clear to me, was the power of Intuition when combined with Deep Analysis.  Think about the consequences of this.  For 3 mana at instant speed this play allows you to draw 8 cards over the next few turns.  I would argue that this play is on level with resolving Future Sight and Yawgmoth's Will in the control mirror.  It is quite obviously the weakest of the three, however, it is also significantly better than ancestral recall, AK for four, or fire/ice->scepter.  This single option makes me confident post-board against control without any REBs.

In addition to this, Intuition also makes sense in any deck running AK's, where it acts as an expensive Ancestral Recall, or sometimes even an asymmetrical draw 7 if you're holding another AK.  Depending on the build it also fetches counterspells, cunning wish, or a creature at instant speed.  Given that you've built a mana-base that supports it, these effects are powerful enough to warrant its inclusion.  Obviously I'm not saying its optimal or even recommended, but I've been testing it for the last few weeks, and I've liked the results.

Quote now that Tog is no longer such a great focus on the deck, I think that the possibility to use Skeletal Scrying...

Skeletal Scrying shouldn't go maindeck because there are plenty of better, lower costing alternatives.  I can see how it would be attractive as a sideboard target, however, I think I'd rather get Gush (if not main), or Fact or Fiction.  There's a reason why both of these are restricted and Skeletal Scrying isn't.

Quote why are there not 4 in an aggro heavy metagame?

First, I do not play in an aggro heavy metagame.  I do however, feel much more confident against control than against the few aggro decks I may run up against.  I am always considering putting the 4th dryad back in (among numerous other changes).  The version I posted with maindeck stifles and swords is extremely good against aggro, in my opinion (or at least a significant improvement over previous bulds).

Quote Perhaps cutting back on the Cunning Wish and killing the Intuition, and leaning for a more Dark Seed like build (such as the one that placed in Dulmen back in October). The mana usage there seems to be a lot more efficient

Can you post the decklist you're speaking of, and elaborate on how it its mana-usage is different?

Quote At last, the 4c, how stable is the manabase? I have done testing with 4c builds (Red, to be exact) when I was trying out Scepter, however, I have nearly no experience for it without Scepter. Is it much different from your deck in Waterbury?

So long as other maindeck decisions are made correctly, this deck can (and should) support four colors.

My four color mana-base typically looks like:

6 Solomoxen (-off color mox)
4 Blue Fetch
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island/Tundra
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Island

Depending on other cards, I may run 21 or 23.  For example, when running stifles, I'm more likely to run less lands, but if I'm running 3x Wish, Intuitions and Deep analysis, I may go up to 23 to support the higher curve.  The 23rd source is usually one of: blue fetch, island #2 or City of Brass.

Quote As the thread in Vintage is going to; Red improves Control and Workshop matchups while White improves the Aggro matchs

Actually, white's StP's add quite a bit to the Workshop matchup.  Probably not as much as red, but much better than the 3-color version.

Quote GAT worst matchup right now is madness

Actually, I don't feel this way at all.  Madness doesn't run strips like Stompy, Suicide, TnT, Sligh and some Mask, so it can't disrupt you early.  Madness may be the fastest aggro deck out there, but given the upcoming restrictions, its not nearly as high on my radar as TnT, Stompy or Mask for aggro decks.

[Caelestis]

I argue against Intuition from the point of view of Hulk. When Hulk was at its peak, the lists all covered quite a bit of counter/disruption.

3~4 Duress
0~1 Mind Twist
4 Mana Drain
4 Forces

upon inspecting your list, we have

2 Misdirection
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain

It is quite a bit weaker, and it is a lot harder to resolve the AK with less counters, and counting on the Intuitioned AK to draw you the cards.

To compare resolving a post-Intuition AK and resolving a FS/Yawgwin, is, imo, incorrect. Those two are played when you have a moderate control of the board, unless it is your last gamble. Intu-Ak also follows that principle, but in Hulk you had Duresses to clear your way, here you have nothing leading the way. In turn, you are more likely to resolve the third AK if you had AKed for 1 and 2 previously, given that you have more cards availiable.

While I am not suggesting that Intuition is pointless to run (it is quite potent with Deep Anal), I believe that Scroll or Tutor is a more optimal choice when it is given that you have no proactice disruption.

As for the Scrying, I loved it so much in Keeper (where FoF is like a given   ) it was my first thought, FoF slipped my mind, quite stupidly.

Quote First, I do not play in an aggro heavy metagame.

I could've swore that you said that somewhere in the Vintage post...must have got posts confused, sorry.

I do nod in concurance with the Stifle and Swords improving the Aggro Matches. However, I feel that an additional threat is quite useful here. You cannot have control sucker you into its pace, you must push the tempo to your own favor, and Dryad often accomplish that for me.

4th place

When I paid attention more to the field, it was quite readily apparent that it is much different from what we see now, and the differences is quite obvious as a result.

Anyhow, I misworded it when I said that its mana usage is more efficient...well, not exactly. That is mainly directed at the Intuition and Deep Analysis. Personally, I believe that cycling AKs is a much better way to utilize your mana, given that your threats grow exponentially with each AK resolved. While Intuition and Deep Anal does not offer that exactly, and Intuitioning for AK can be a flawed strategy for this deck against Control, as I tried to show before.

With regard to the manabase, is the Sol Ring particularly needed without Deep Anal or Intuitions? I do not see many things that it'd fuel, and I believe that an additional land in that spot can help prevent colorscrewing, which I occasionally experience with this. Perhaps I am not playing correctly...

With the Workshop matchup, I found much less wMUDs about lately, and mainly it is the aggro variant that has been returning. In turn, Swords should perform just as well as Rack and Ruin...well, it won't, but it would do near that. Besides, white also offer Seal of Cleansing (a personal favorite from Super Gro   )

As for Madness...I play U/G for Extended quite extensively. Stifle really hampers the strategy behind Madness, while the Vintage version is by far faster and more explosive, GaT also offer more card advantage and ability to deal with the opponent's threats than U/G Madness from Extended. I feel that with Swords and Stifle, the matchup should not be particularly difficult. Though Flying things are a pain.

That said, I must ask why Coffin Purge is used over Crypt. Though I have heard of various NE Dragons packing Stifle, Crypt does offer a way for you to hamper their draw engine and all much faster than Coffin Purge.

[eddavatar]

Caelestis: You are missing a very important thing about running intuition: The "feel safe" factor.

The real main reason that i run intuitions is because when I see it, I always know it's not dead weight. It obviously fetches AK. It also acts as desperation tutor as i always have contended and a great Yawg will set up. It also does other subtle things like fetching land when you really need to, thinning the deck, growing the dryad and the tog, a mana-drain sink, a counter bait, and a lot more. The AK it fetches is way more explosive than the gradual drawing of the
AKs one by one. Trust me, try it, it won't disappoint you. I found it so indispensable that I keep it in even when i take deep anal out of the deck all together. You shouldn't compare intuition with Future sight because FS is 3U.

Madness' not a bad matchup. You dryads can outgrew the wurms easy. The biggest problem is just wonder in grave and that can be dealt with by wish->coffin purge. Even Deed does wonder.

GAT's true enemies are Wasteland and workshop, and masknaught. Wasteland hits the weakest aspect of the deck: the mana. Workshop also defeats your mana in a different way. Naught's a horribly hard threat to handle. One of the reason i've been contemplating a white splash again is because of naught, but i just can't find a way to make it work with the already horrible mana base.

As of Skeletal scrying, why choosing a card that would knowingly be working against the deck when you can avoid it by running something else like Fact or Gush main?

The reason that the purges are used over crypt is because they're cunning-wishable. That's huge for game 1.

I'm really surprised that my opinions have always been regarded as incorrect as I've been playtesting with GAT extensively. Just curious, does anyone have GAT as their primary deck? Because it is in my case, and I've been quite successful with it.

[David Hernandez]

@Ed:
I don't think that your opinions are "incorrect".  I just like to build GAT a little differently than you do, and offer constructive argument for what I like vs. what you like.  That doesn't make me right...

For example, I like running Regrowth and Gush (main deck). Others disagree with this.  I'm always happy to see the Regrowth, and I prefer to save my Cunning Wishes for utility cards and Berserk, not Gush.

Others disagree, and have good arguments that i pay attention to.

Dave

[Flurp™]

Regarding Intuition:  I origonaly ran one in my build, but quickly took it out because of its speed.  The deck is already very tight on mana and lots of times dosent have enough to play intuition (especally against a deck with 5 strips).  Also the deck likes to play things with effect the turn it is played, if you are playing intuitions it hurts your tempo.

[Caelestis]

@ Ed

Yes, I am quite aware of the fact that Intuition is never a dead card - Nor is Merchant Scroll and Mystical Tutor, for a cheaper price, to boot. While Intuition carries a wider range, as you said.

Quote It obviously fetches AK. It also acts as desperation tutor as i always have contended and a great Yawg will set up. It also does other subtle things like fetching land

While those two cards cannot serve as a Yawgwin setup, nor can it do tricks like thinning deck via fetching land, the deck is very tempo based, and taking your time like this can be a tempo disadvantage. More often than not, if your 3rd AK from Intuition is not going to resolve, your Yawgwin would have an even lesser chance of resolving due to the lack of cards for a counter backup. Even as a counter bait the Intu-AK call is also a potential huge card disadvantage, especially with Chronic and Landstill going around in the meta.

Quote The AK it fetches is way more explosive than the gradual drawing of the AKs one by one. Trust me, try it, it won't disappoint you

That is absolutely correct, cycling of AK is quite slow. However, as someone pointed out, the focus of this deck is not the Psychatog. If it is, we'd be playing Neo-Tog. The point is more behind the Dryads and their growth. Intu-AK doesn't accomplish that particularly nicely, nor does it give you the counter that you would need to resolve larger AKs, as I previously argued.

Quote You shouldn't compare intuition with Future sight because FS is 3U.

I see them both in the same niche. The point is not the CC as much as it is the function.

Quote i just can't find a way to make it work with the already horrible mana base.

I squeezed some time for some playtesting online yesterday with a build similiar to GI's (Can I sue WotC if I mess up on the SATs because of the lack of studying here?  ) With the Stifles and the Misds, not even Suicide or Bloody Suicide was giving me a particularly hard time. They are still a pain in the back, but the Stifles help out quite some.

Quote As of Skeletal scrying, why choosing a card that would knowingly be working against the deck when you can avoid it by running something else like Fact or Gush main?

Shh...I forgot about Fact  

Quote The reason that the purges are used over crypt is because they're cunning-wishable. That's huge for game 1.

You can easily run Purge + Crypt.