U/R Landstill, whats the best build?

[The M.E.T.H.O.D]

Ive been playing around with a couple of decks, and Landstill is one of them.  Landstill is a great deck to play in the new meta for many reasons.  I wanted to start a new discussion here in the open forum.  The full discussion is floating around in the archive but Shockwave's primer is here:
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=30

Here is the list im currently running, its almost exact to Shockwave's build, except the manabase is a little bit different and I only run 3 Disks.

//Mana
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Faerie Conclave
4 Island
4 Volcanic Island
1 Shivan Reef
2 Polluted Delta
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Dust Bowl

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire  
1 Lotus Petal

// Card Drawing and Utility
4 Standstill
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

// Removal
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice
3 Nevinyrral's Disk

// Permission
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
3 Misdirection
3 Stifle

// Sideboard
3 Maze of Ith
3 Tormod’s Crypt
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Energy Flux


I only card i added to this deck was dustbowl. The idea of dustbowl has been floating around in the threads for landstill, both u/w and u/r builds.  After trying it out for a little while all i have to say is it's AMAZING.  Dustbowl changes the outcome of control mirrors and landstill mirrors, and its a house under a standstill, because it forces your opponent to do something, (Breaking the standstill).

Nothing radically new here has been implented in this post, but I started the thread here to start a discussion with the Open Type One posters.

This thread is up to discuss the merits and disadvantages of the deck, and possible changes to the maindeck and the Sideboard.

[TheRock]

Even though Energy Flux is a great card against artifact decks, I really feel that Rack and Ruin is better because it is immediate and it takes out the bomb while Energy Flux can only hinder their progress.  Disk is just a loaded weapon against them because it takes out the real threat...and everything with it.  Rack and Ruin works the same.

In my honest opinion, the fact that you gave three slots to artifact removal would make me worry about only running three maindeck Disks over four.  Try to look and see if you need all four Lightning Bolts (since you run a 3/3/3/3/3 sideboard).

The only other major thing I see that you chose to remove Chalice for Chain.  Does Chain give you the same protection against Dragon and other aggro builds like Chalice?  I want to see your side of the story first.

[The M.E.T.H.O.D]

My board is for my local metagame, so it shouldn't reflect the general meta. My bad for not explaining

1. Energy Flux-  There for slaver.  Because Artifact destruction like RnR really doesn't work against Slaver because they will just gold fish, and slaver you anyway.  Combined with rest of your deck you can slow them down ith Energy Flux, killing welders, wastelands, then just rack and ruin.  The Energy fluxes might change if my local meta featured some other workshop deck then slaver.  

2. Chain of vapor- I run this because its a 1spot answer to Dragon, combined with stifles and the solid countermagic its amazing.  You need a quick solution when the decks like dragon usually go off pretty quickly.  I also didn't want to waste SB cards on BEB for bloodmoon, so chain of vapor doubles over as removal for bloodmoon, giving you an oppurtinity to make sure it doesn't resolve again.

I think four lightning bolts are nessessary, because thats 12 damage right there.  To play a disk you have to usually rely on draining something juicy so you can play it and still have mana left over to be stable. Bolts deal so much damage they can just speed the game up by so many turns, lowering the amount of manland swings nessesary.  Ive never not had a disk when i needed one with the ridiculous amount of draw that this deck has.

With the absence of decks like Long, TPS, Rector and cheap aggro like sligh, I really don't need the chalices anymore.  The only matchups where chalice might be used are against fish.  But thats not that great because there is no way you can lose fire/ice, mana drain, and all the other key spells.

[MarkPharaoh]

Since when did Workshops appear at GM?  Last time I was there, the only 4 Workshops in the tournament were mine.  This is what I have been running as of late:

// Mana
    4 Wasteland
    4 Island
    4 Volcanic Island
    4 Faerie Conclave
    4 Mishra's Factory
    2 Flooded Strand
    1 Strip Mine
    1 Library of Alexandria
    1 Shivan Reef
    1 Lotus Petal
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Sapphire

// Spells
    4 Force of Will
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Time Walk
    4 Fire/Ice
    4 Nevinyrral's Disk
    4 Mana Drain
    4 Standstill
    3 Misdirection
    3 Stifle
    4 Lightning Bolt

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Maze of Ith
SB: 3 Acid Rain
SB: 2 Chain of Vapor

I am testing the Acid Rains against Big O and TnT and thus far they have been very good against Big O and have done well against TnT as well shutting down SotF in case it slips by my counterwall.  I am gonna try cutting the 2nd Strand for a Dust Bowl and see how that works out.

[The M.E.T.H.O.D]

Acid rain is a very good card, but it's main issue relies on its casting cost.  Yes, you do have Mana Drain mana to sink it into, but for the most part id rather cast a Disk THAN cast acid rain.

EDIT: I Meant that i would rather run disk and no acid rains at all

[MarkPharaoh]

Against Big O, i'd MUCH rather cast Acid Rain then Disk.

[Pern]

You want the Disk first.
They don't care, the Troll regenerates.
Then Acid Rain.
Oops, it doesn't.

You need to be able to blow the disk
when they have no forests.
One forest and an ESG negates your Disk.

[Shaman]

Can't you simply stifle the ability? Troll can't be a target for you, but its ability can be stifled anyway...

[Pern]

Sure you can.
If they have forests, they can do it again.

[The M.E.T.H.O.D]

Yea PDude is right, but still think that rain/disk is a tech that requires too much mana, are you guys positive that there are no other solutions?

[Pern]

Humility, Moat, Darksteel Colossus, Darksteel Forge/Platinum Angel...

Oh, did you mean solutions that were good in Landstill?

[The M.E.T.H.O.D]

@Pdude.. LoL, I deserved that. Yes I meant Landstill.

Has dustbowl been working successfully for anyone else?

Its amazing to me.

Has anyone ever had problems is fairie conclave?  Like having it in your hand when you would rather have a land that comes into play untapped.  I wanted to lower the count of conclaves to three, but thats just stupid and it doesn't help the deck at all.  Anyone care to show some sample manabases that they are running?

[BreathWeapon]

Does anybody feel like the deck needs something to pull itself together at times, like Impulses or Brainstorms? After having playing U/w Landstill for awhile (4STP/4Impulse) I really miss having "the gathering" effect.

[The M.E.T.H.O.D]

I have never had trouble with the draw engine, standstill is a fine engine. I really don't know what you would cut because its a very tight decklist.  Are you running teferi's response or no?

[Gbj]

I am trying to change Misdirection for Cunning Wish in the the main.
Than i run in side Hibernation and some good stuff for Wish target.
Could be an idea  

[Shock Wave]

Cunning Wish is quite a poor choice for this deck, but I'll let your own testing draw that conclusion for those of you who think otherwise.

[The M.E.T.H.O.D]

Cunning wish is not really a great card choice for the following reasons.

1. Landstill has most of the tools to handle most of its situations maindeck.

2.  Adding cunning with is a huge mana + sideboard commitment in an already tight deck list.  Instead of playing cunning wish id rather spend the mana on a billion other things, casting disks, standstills, leaving the mana open for counters, getting some extra swings with manlands, etc.

3.  This deck operates with AND needs more pitchable cards like misdirection.  Removing them would weaken the counter/control base of this deck.  This decks inherently strong ability to just destroy your opponents’ game with the counterbase and stifles/disks/standstills, and how it spews so much card advantage in your favor.  You would probably jeopardize this effectiveness of this deck by cutting core cards and addling unnecessary wishes.

[The M.E.T.H.O.D]

Has anyone ever tried running the fourth stifle in the deck? Or anyone ever try MD chain of vapor?

[TheRock]

I think four Stifle maindeck is overkill unless you are going up against a lot of Keeper, Dragon, or mirror.  I see no problem with having the fourth as a sideboard card, but I don't usually want to have four of a card that I can't use in some matchups.

Chain of Vapor is cute, and that's the best way to put it.  It can do some amazing things, but unless you really need the bounce or your desperately need to be a "Disk bouncer", I wouldn't suggest making it a maindeck option.

[everythingitouchdies]

I have just recently started toying with this deck, and the most frustrating card for me is Faerie Conclave. How do you guys feel about the Blinkmoth Nexus in Darksteel as an alternative? It doesnt produce blue (which really hasnt been a problem) and it doesnt come into play tapped, and also it is only one colorless to activate... but its only a 1/1. It takes 4 lands to make it a 2/2. Overall I still think it may be a better alternative, and I am interested in the thoughts of others.

[Arvid]

How much mana do you guys play with, lands + artifact mana?
If I don't have power should I sub the mox/lotus for lands or
for other cards?

Is one loneyly Lotes Petal worth it? Seems to me as I am making
my self vulnerable to Goblin Welder trix on my disks.

[The M.E.T.H.O.D]

@ Avrid.  As shockwave stated in his primer, lotus petal is included over ruby or other moxen because it increases the chance of accomplishing a first turn standstill, or be able to first turn mana drain.  Additionally, you can waste a land and use the petal to lead off a stifle, which can do wonders in dismantling your opponent’s mana base.

The mana base can easily be corrected for the budget player, I recommend adding more land.  The two routes you can go are either fetchlands + more islands, or you can add Shivan reefs.  

As for welder, you should save yourself from situations like that by preventing welder from getting on the board, or remove it with one of the tons of removal this deck packs, and then play a disk.

@EverythingItouchDies.. Yea the coming into play tapped can be a problem, but the card isn't that out of place because you can usually play it first turn, or after you have achieved the ability to cast drain, or under standstill.  The new blinkmoth nexus isn't good because it doesn't produce blue.  The biggest drawback is that it’s a 1/1 which means it will take a ton more time to lower your opponent’s life total.  You just have to play conclaves correctly to avoid the coming into play situation.

@TheRock I agree with the no 4th stifle or chains, I just wanted to see the different combinations that other people tested.  Like you said the fourth stifle would be in a heavy combo/control environment.

[Pern]

Maindeck Chain of Vapor is huge.
Null Rod, Blood Moon, Back To Basics are popular cards that wreck you pre-side.
Chain answers them all, as well as killing Roar tokens,
bouncing turn one Morphlings (I did that) and Negators,
resetting Dryads, wrecking Dragons, and so on.

[Tempo matters]

I have been running grim lavamancers over the bolts in my build.
-pros
can multiple target over many turns
get rid of weldres and workers plus wennies
works under standstill
-cons
creature
a weak creature
can only do 2 dmg
it my preference unless this has already been covered i think it would be a valuable addition to the deck,even though it does dies to almost all forms of removal just my thoughts.

[Moxlotus]

Creatures are bad-Disk nukes them.  Bolts can also deal that 3 damage you need right now to that Juggy. Landstill also doesn't send a bunch of cards to the grave needed for Lavamancer.  I don't think he is a good idea for the deck at all.

[MarkPharaoh]

Both me and Shock Wave tried running MD Chain of Vapors and they weren't too impressive, but they did do their job.  I don't know if he still runs them but I don't because I missed my Bolts too much.  I am open to suggestions on how to fit them in the maindeck.  I was going to test -1 Disk, -1 Bolt.

[TheRock]

MarkPharoah:  You did say that your area had few Workshop decks (except your own).  Is that correct or is this strep throat giving me illusions?  

Out of all the cards I do cut to run Chain, the 4th Lightning Bolt is usually the first to go.  You could try placing the 4th Disk on your sideboard since you don't have to worry about artifact decks as much (or at least I think so), but still, I'm not that into the idea of only having 3 global removal cards when I usually want as many as I can get.

Pern:  Blood Moon isn't too horrible pre-side for U/R Landstill, but I sure hate Null Rod, Quirion Dryad, Dragon, and the Madness matchup.  Not to mention Masticore in Chalice Black and Sui builds.

I switch the 4th Lightning Bolt with a Chain of Vapor a ton since if I don't need that much burn, I usually want the bounce.

[Arvid]

Thanks, I've tested Lotus Petal now and it'll stay.

Say - what are your sideboards looking like?

I'm going to play:

3- possibly even 4 Maze of Ith [Aggro and Sligh]
4 Tormod's Crypt [I know both decks I side them in against can play around them, Rector-Tendrils via Hurkyl's Recall and Dragon via Abeyance. Although this means he have to get this card, which gives me a couple of extra turns to establish control]

...So please help me from here!

I'm thinking of 3-4 Arcane Laboratory. I'm thinking that if I can resolve one of these against Rector/TPS/Long or Dragon I have won. This is true because A> They can't storm and I'm not particulary afraid of Form of the Dragon. B> Dragon can't play Abeyance/Orim's Chant and an animate-spell the same turn. C> If I can counter one spell/turn I will win since my man-lands isn't spells (this may be true against more decks than just Rector and Dragon). What do you think about this?

Also, what do you think about Pyrostatic Pillar? Good against anything more than Rector/TPS/Long?

[MarkPharaoh]

No one here plays Workshop.dec, but I am not concerned about my meta, I am more concerned about the Lotus tourney at GM's this sunday since my main option is Landstill; however, I do have a few other options.  And I wouldn't run CoV in my meta, too much aggro here, I need all the burn and Disks I can get.

[TheRock]

Arvid:  Arcane Laboratory wrecks more than those decks.  As you had said, if you can get one threat at a time, you can do much better right?  

Apply that logic to most aggro and combo decks.  It will seriously affect how the game progresses.  Those are your bad matchups after all, but Arcane Laboratory is so generic.  If you don't know what to expect, it is a powerful card for Landstill.  Otherwise, I would stay with more specific cards like Maze of Ith, Flametongue Kavu, etc.

Just remember what Null Rod, Back to Basics, and Blood Moon can do.  

Pyrostatic Pillar isn't really that useful since there are other cards available for you that do even more damage to opponents.  I don't think even DeathLong is worried about it.

MarkPharoah:  I see, sorry about that.  Are you still running the two Chains sideboard though or are you looking to replace them as well?