How do we tank Trinisphere?

[Hi-Val]

After getting just flat-out owned by Trinisphere in a tournament, I was thinking of ways to stop it. Obviously, the Sphere gets played in Stax decks. Now, Rack and Ruin costs 2R to play, and that isn't bad at all. R&R is the standard in artifact hate. However, it needs acceleration usually to hit Workshop decks before they can drop Smokestack and eat permanents. It becomes a very hard lock to keep permanents on the board in the face of massive denial like Sphere.

So how do we get rid of it? A first-turn Sphere ends up being only stopped by Force of Will and the crappy pitch counters. Too often, it drops down and that's game. There must be some way to stop the card, and I am determined to find it.

At the height of jankiness, we find Blinkmoth Well. For 2, you can tap a noncreature artifact, which shuts down Sphere. This is, of course, if you can hit your 3 lands, and if you can do that, why wouldn't you be casting Rack and Ruin?

Has anyone found a solution for Trinisphere?

[Smmenen]

More Moxen?



Steve

[TheFram]

Running Elvish Spirit Guide helps.

[The Atog Lord]

If they go first, and they have Workshop, and they have Sphere, and you do not have Force of Will, there is not too much to be done; but, this will happen only (very) roughly 1/(2^4) = 1/16 games, assuming you have a full set of Forces.

If you get the chance to go first, there are a number of options. One option is to counter the sphere, using either Annul or the ancient Artifact Blast. The other option, assuming you get some acceleration, is to play a first turn Seal of Cleansing or Viridian Zealot.

Knowing more about your particular deck would help in finding more specific answers to the Sphere.

[Blackest Lotus]

How about relying on the fact that Workshop based decks won't always be able to play 3Sphere. They won't always get the Trinisphere in their opening hand or have the mana to immediately cast it first turn. If you go first you can drop your acceleration, and basically make 3Sphere useless. These are pretty obvious. I dont think any special strategy needs to be made.

You aren`t going to get that promotion you really need, your apartment will burn down and Stax will crush your tempo with Trinisphere, thats life. Not much you can do about it.   :lol:

[Wollblad]

There are som solutions other than playing Workshop decks yourslef. You could include a few Ancient Tomb and use more spells that cost 3 mana. Then you get 3 mana faster and when you do cast a spell you get a 3 mana effect, not one for 0-2 mana. There is also the possibility to include Annul which is actually not a too bad card in todays meta game. Works against both Workshop decks and Dragon. Might be an option at least in sideboard.

[Gaea]

I think 3sphere can be a problem for most decks, but we can stop it in may ways:

If we have to start:

-start with land and some mox, sol ring, bop or other stuff playing 3sphere won't help cause we have mana to pay ist cost
-start with duress on trinisphera can stop it
-start with goblin vandal and you can't play it if you're a little bit intelligent
-start with pernicious deed and you can't play about nothing...
-start with an active counter can stop it (force of will or daze or land mox sapph with drain or lotus with drain)

and after side we can start with other good stuff, like land mox disenchant, land mox mox rack and ruin, annull or everything we're playing against artifacts...

If he starts:

-force of will is always ready  
-if i play waste on his land and he doesn't have another is not so easy for him to play under 3sphere

And if I play a ws deck 3sphere is not a problem

[Tempe]

Clarification: A first turn Trinisphere via Workshop happens about 21.8% of the time. The chance that you don't have Force of Will, assuming you run four, is about 11.5%. I'd say that I'm not too worried about it a that point.
*This is when the Workshop player plays first.

Even if they manage to get a first turn Trinisphere out, Elvish Spirit Guide is a great accelerant that isn't slowed down. You can also run lands that accelerate, although I admit most of them are subpar, such as Ancient Tomb. Still, with 2 mountains and an ESG you can Rack and Ruin by the second turn, knocking out not only the Trinisphere but the Smokestack, for instance, that they play as well, putting you in a possibly winning position.

But the best answer changes between which decks you are playing. Some decks can run FoW or ESG, and others can't. Some can run Ancient Tomb, and others can't. It all depends on the deck.

--Tempe

[jazzykat]

I think that if you are really worried then: duress if you go first is also very powerful (It isn't that hot for the matchup in general but if you are really worried about it...)

[Matt]

duress if you go first is also very powerful

If you go first, Trinisphere does little or nothing, because you can go land+mox and be able to have a turn one play, AND a turn two play (when you drop the second land).

[BreathWeapon]

ESG and Ancient Tomb are the best budget solutions to the problem. You could also try Aether Vial or Goblin Lackey/Vandal.

[SpencerForHire]

For every problem Trinisphere causes there is an equal or greater solution.  
Keep in mind 3Sphere will be like no card advantage at all in some matches.  Mask will run it through.  Landstill will laugh in its face.  3sphere is another tool, whether it is better then previous options or not doesnt matter.  Its just another tool that you just have to find your own way around.  BTW, did you ever think blinkmoth well could be a good solution to it in T1.  It could actually prove quite useful.

[jazzykat]

duress if you go first is also very powerful

If you go first, Trinisphere does little or nothing, because you can go land+mox and be able to have a turn one play, AND a turn two play (when you drop the second land).

Sure if you have moxes and draw one.  I suppose it really depends on what Hi-Val was playing.

[Matt]

If you're not playing Moxen or ESG, your deck is ill-equipped to win against any number of things. Sad, but true. Workshop-Trinisphere is only one more hurdle.

[Rico Suave]

Waste their Shops.

[DEA]

If you're not playing Moxen or ESG, your deck is ill-equipped to win against any number of things. Sad, but true

you imply that every deck should run esgs  

[Gaea]

sorry for my question i think is so stupid but what means esg?

[MadManiac21]

Elvish Spirit Guide. The current choice for mana acceleration of almost any green deck (Big O, GPR) and many combo decks.

[Matt]

If you're not playing Moxen or ESG, your deck is ill-equipped to win against any number of things. Sad, but true

you imply that every deck should run esgs  

No, I imply that every deck should be running Moxen, unless you have a damn good reason not to (such as 3-4 maindeck Null Rods) and even in that case, you still need acceleration (ESG).

[ump]

If Trinisphere with Smokestack becomes too popular then I suspect more people will try to run Darksteel Citadels along with Wastelands.  Since it's indestructable, it will stall for time before you can get to three lands.  However, that's quite a bit of commitment to colorless mana.

[Edit]Ignore this post.  After re-reading the text on Smokestack, it causes you to sacrifice and doesn't do any good against indestructable.

[defector]

Run Tog, almost all your nasty is 2-3.  Trinisphere is very similar to sphere of resistance then and it's still a good match up for you, tog and deed and wish are unaffected, at least sphere made you pay more for them.
3Sphere is strong, but so are a bunch of other cards.
defector

[RedACE]

Waste their Shops.

If you wasteland their workshop after they've dropped a sphere (even assuming they didn't drop any moxen 1st turn), you are really behind if they have another workshop. Other than both of you having drawn a card, its as if you're back on their first turn, but they just dropped their 3sphere for free.

I know if they go workshop 3sphere and you have a wasteland, then 90% of the time you will wasteland their shop, but if they drop shop #2....

[Dante]

Clarification: A first turn Trinisphere via Workshop happens about 21.8% of the time. The chance that you don't have Force of Will, assuming you run four, is about 11.5%. I'd say that I'm not too worried about it a that point.
*This is when the Workshop player plays first.

Just a clarification on the math here, if you have a 60-card deck and 4 of a certain card, say FoW, your odds of drawing at least 1 in your first 7 cards are 40%.  Those are your odds of drawing at least 1 FoW in your opening hand, not 88.5%.

Bill

[RedACE]

don't forget, you need force and a blue card in your opening 7 cards... decreasing your changes slightly.

[Rico Suave]

Waste their Shops.

If you wasteland their workshop after they've dropped a sphere (even assuming they didn't drop any moxen 1st turn), you are really behind if they have another workshop. Other than both of you having drawn a card, its as if you're back on their first turn, but they just dropped their 3sphere for free.

I know if they go workshop 3sphere and you have a wasteland, then 90% of the time you will wasteland their shop, but if they drop shop #2....

Yea, but that's still a lot more appealing than just running Rack and Ruin.  Giving them 3 free turns isn't exactly a winning situation either.

[RedACE]

Rico, I know you gotta do it. But can we come up with some better ways of handling the situation?

[Hi-Val]

A lot of these strategies rely on "Win the coinflip". No good.

(Good) Stax players will lead with targets like Welder and SoR to suck up FoWs and then drop sphere. That's brutal. In those three turns you give them, they drop Smokestack and you never hit 3 lands. That's the hard lock in the deck, and Tog can't wish in Artifact Mutation if it never has three mana on the board.

There has to be some strategy or deck that dodges it. Something maybe to do with making it tap (i.e., janky Blinkmoth Well).

[Matt]

So it's a problem when they get a Welder AND a Trinisphere AND a Smokestack AND three mana AND you lose the coinflip AND you don't have a FoW? I'm somehow not worried.

[LoA]

I realize this might strike some as heresy, but I'm not yet convinced that Trinsphere is strictly better than Sphere of Resistance.  Yes, there are decks and scenarios in which Trinsphere is better, but there are a lot of common decks out there (Hulk comes to mind) where I'd rather have Sphere of Resistance.  Sphere is also cumulative, which makes a big difference in my mind for 4-ofs in any deck.

People seem fixated on the Workshop-Trinsphere opening hand.  This can be a rough hand for a lot of decks to deal with if they aren't going first, but that requires the other player to get pretty lucky fairly often.

[Hi-Val]

Matt, it's more like they drop a Mana Crypt and a Workshop and then bait with a SoR. When/if that hits, it stops the FoW on the coming Trinisphere. And I don't know about you, but the Stax decks I have seen all run draw, meaning that they will hit Smokestacks or Wastelands long before you hit 3 mana.

Yes, it does happen, and it happens too much. Play against some Stax with Trinisphere and you'll see what I mean.