Proxy Discussion

[MarkPharaoh]

As for the "if people can proxy, they'll all netdeck" idea, this is total bullshit. I play Apprentice, where everyone has power, and I rarely face netdecks. More often I see Enchantress, Chalice Black, weird LandStill builds, Yawgmoth's Oath, etc. Access to all the cards means you can play whatever the hell you want, not that you're going to netdeck automatically.

This is another reason why I have a problem with unlimited proxies.  I play a shit load of games online, probably more then anyone else on this site.  And even with a full card pool, I mostly run into horrific decks or good decks piloted by horrific players.  I finally went out to my first power tourney a few months ago at GM's with five proxies.  I had more competition with just five proxies then I ever do in online play with the entire card pool.

I know someone will say "yea, but IRL your playing for Power and online your playing for nothing".  This isn't completely true.  A lot of my online games were in tournaments/league games where people are actually competitive and TRY to win and I still ran into a lot of bad decks or bad players playing good decks.

[Smmenen]

As for the "if people can proxy, they'll all netdeck" idea, this is total bullshit. I play Apprentice, where everyone has power, and I rarely face netdecks. More often I see Enchantress, Chalice Black, weird LandStill builds, Yawgmoth's Oath, etc. Access to all the cards means you can play whatever the hell you want, not that you're going to netdeck automatically.

This is another reason why I have a problem with unlimited proxies.  I play a shit load of games online, probably more then anyone else on this site.  And even with a full card pool, I mostly run into horrific decks or good decks piloted by horrific players.  I finally went out to my first power tourney a few months ago at GM's with five proxies.  I had more competition with just five proxies then I ever do in online play with the entire card pool.

I know someone will say "yea, but IRL your playing for Power and online your playing for nothing".  This isn't completely true.  A lot of my online games were in tournaments/league games where people are actually competitive and TRY to win and I still ran into a lot of bad decks or bad players playing good decks.

I think this is totally true, but it cuts the other way.

If people who proxy, for the most part, are worse players with the decks, they are not a threat to those who have power, and thus, there is no reason NOT to allow proxies becuase the people who own the cards have less to lose.

Steve

[SpencerForHire]

A reason alot of netdecking exists is the pure lack of power.  Most people who run netdecks are running budget "netdecks" that work well against power (since not much does).

The apearance of power via proxies could allow the inspiration of a normally unqualified tourney player to make the next revolutionary deck.

[st00mie]

I am of the opinion that Wizards will never allow us to proxy even the most scarce of cards, as they have made clear on several occasions. I think as long as we are talking about proxying cards at all, we need to disregard the idea that Wizards will ever allow us to use them. Once we are outside the boundaries set forth by Wizards policies toward sanctioning, the problem becomes more clear; there are not enough power cards in existance to support the growing Vintage community. Even if the cards are availabe at the moment (albeit for ludacris prices, considering some of our potential player's budgets), they will not be two, three, five years from now. Sanctioning concerns should be reserved for events like the Vintage World Championships.

The issue at hand here isn't wether people will netdeck or not any more than it is Wizards allowing us to sanction with proxies.  In Standard, all the cards are widely available, and people netdeck all the damn time.  Hell, people who DO own power netdeck.  I don't see why this is an issue.  We are trying to make the crucial Vintage cards available to everybody, so cost issues aren't negatively affecting the metagame.  Netdecking is/will be no more of a problem in Vintage than in Standard.

[Nameless]

Well, I certainly got a few responses to my own post, so let me address and correct a few ideas that may exist about my point of view...

As I said earlier, I do play in tournaments that ARE sactined and DO allow proxies.  3 to be exact.  Yea, it's a breach of the rules, so what?  Go ahead and prove it happened, you're gonna need a hell of a lot more then just my word.  Anyway...

This is done so people don't cry all day long about how they just lost because they didn't have any broken power cards.  It's also small enough that people that DO own the power are not just wasting money.  It's fair and it's balanced.  If you need more then 3, play another deck chief...

This is a collectible card game.  Collecting the damn cards IS part of the metagame, and it IS part of your Magic skill.  Know where to look and get them.  I'm not going to go into details, but I've said it before, you CAN get every damn card you'd want to play with in T1 without skipping meals.

I understand exactly who is saying what in every aspect of this thread, Smemmycakes, I simply believe it is utter horse shit and mainly excuses for being lazy.  If I go shoot a man of a particular race for his color of skin, then turn around and marry a woman of that race, does that mean I'm not a racist?  Shit, it's the same thing.  Don't sit back and tell me it's OK to have uber proxy tournaments because you do and you just happen to own all the power cards so it's OK.

My stance is that while I do not in any way shape or form like having proxies in sanctioned tournaments, it very much does improve turnout, and 3 is bad enough, but when I hear about decks and tournaments using 10 or so then it just makes me ill.  I get sick because I know so damn many people that worked for thier cards, and then I have to listen to bitching from people too lazy to get thier own about why they don't have them.

Or maybe it's all because of the Germans, right?  I mean that MUST be why power cards in the US are so damn scarce, right?  All the cards made it to Germany somehow, that surely explains all the Vintage tournaments with great turnouts they have all the fucking time, right?  Stop me where I stand then.  Tell me I'm wrong, I dare you.  If you want to step up to me though, bring proof.  That goes for anybody...  Don't sit back and tell me how you can't find this or that, or you just can't get ahold of it...

So what other reasons you guys got?  So far the biggest complaint I've heard for proxies has been something along the lines of why they just can't get them.

The only other reason I've heard about using proxies is to encourage participation in the format, and to improve the metagame.  Sadly, both of those answers are just horse shit being sold as chocolate ice cream.  Metagame my ass, one again, the Germans have a fucking fruit loopy nutbar metagame in thier Vintage, and it kicks ass.  The problem?  I find it hard to beleive that everybody who plays in those regular, and HUGE, tournaments all are packing full power.  If they are then shit, maybe the Germans DID buy up all the damn power, in which case I would sure as shit stand corrected.

Peace.

[Smmenen]

I'm glad that you think having fun in competition is utter horse shit and being lazy.  You can play in your shitty sligh and suicide black infested metagame.  Magic is a game more than anything else and I would rather play in a stronger field, than preserve the integrity of my collectables.

On this side of the Ohio River I'm going to play in a cool metagame with Workshops, Combo, and Tog aided and abetted by proxies.  

Steve

[DEA]

what, that means you're ok with a random t2 scrub deciding to pick up the flavour of the month and proxying everything, AND winning by the sheer randomness of a god hand which he even BUTCHERED but still managed to kill you by virtue of power?

THAT is what irritates me
losing to a good player, powered or not, that's ok
broken shit happens
losing to a dickwad who doesn't know the first thing about T1 and can't be fucking bothered to get even the freaking fow, that's not ok

proxies are good
idiots proxying, that's not so good
you say it makes the field stronger
yes, to a certain extent
you get budget players who know what is going on and CAN become more competitive
but more often than not you're going to see the a/m dickwads
maybe it's the area i'm in, because i see a lot of the a/m dickwads

my 2 cents, ymmv, the usual disclaimers

[Jacob Orlove]

T2 is not a scrub format; the best T2 players are without a doubt better than most, if not all, T1 players. Letting people like that play in T1 events can only be good for the format.

Besides, if he has proxies, then we, by definition, have all the power of the format at our fingertips. If we can't win two games of three, then maybe we have to admit that he has some skill, or that we picked a suboptimal deck for the metagame. And don't forget that magic is, in many ways, a game of luck. From the pairings to the die roll, to the opening hand and the topdecks, luck  amkes itself known in our format. I, for one, wouldn't have it any other way.

Like Smmenen, I have the cards I need to play (most of) the decks in the format, but I still support proxies. I don't go to type one tournaments so that people with power can masturbate while the people without power sit back and watch--I'm there to play type one, and the fairer the playing field, the better. I'd rather have fun playing real games of type one than watch over half the field be crippled because some cards are just too scarce.

[Smash]

I'm glad that you think having fun in competition is utter horse shit and being lazy.  You can play in your shitty sligh and suicide black infested metagame.  Magic is a game more than anything else and I would rather play in a stronger field, than preserve the integrity of my collectables.

On this side of the Ohio River I'm going to play in a cool metagame with Workshops, Combo, and Tog aided and abetted by proxies.  

Steve

All the proxy tournaments I have been to still had tons of shitty sligh and suicide. They just have shitty sligh with a lotus and a mox, instead of straight up shitty sligh. Some people are just shit, and no matter how many shitty proxies you give them, will still play shitty decks.

I have found that no matter the tourney format... the first few rounds of a t1 tourney tend to be random. Rounds 3 and up will be real competitive decks. So weather you smash shitty proxied rasko keeper, or shitty sligh, you will play worthless decks early on. As much as you make it out to be a problem with type 1, it is not exclusive.  I judged several 1.x PTQs this season, and you would be amazed how many HORRIBLE decks were out there. We are talking ernem & burn'em, battle of wits slivers, and balancing tings. Inevitable, they get beat up in the first few rounds and play among themselves, and the later rounds are REAL people with REAL decks.

[jpmeyer]

The post above jor_love's just about sums up why I love Type 1 players :<

[Gradek]

Nameless, your arguments appear to lack any amount of logical reasoning.  Outside of the Northeast US, metagames lack power and it is not due to lack of desire, it is due to the distribution of power.  Remember, WOTC sold A/B/U all over the country, which means power were (and to some extent still are) spread out, making most metagames like ours in Ohio with a few powered or semi-powered players and most without any power.  Dulmen is a bad comparison that is always thrown out simply because the Europeans have a cheap, fast, and well connected mass transit system that allows many more players attend tournaments than is feasible here in the states.  Also, each piece of power that goes overseas due to the exchange rate will probably never come back, further limiting a "true" metagme from ever developing here.  Unlimited proxy tournaments are a great way for everyone to experience type 1 and to provide a venue for a truly competitive metagame.  Of course, some bad players will show up with all proxy decks and annoy us, but for every bad player, you will have 2 or 3 excellent type 2 players that will play (and test) and provide a new level of competition.  Your argument that if you want to compete, you should get power harkens back to the Negro Leagues in baseball, you want to disqualify potentially great players from competing basing your argument entirely upon a rule (the no proxy rule) that was created not under competitive pretenses, but financial ones (obviously the baseball analogy was racial pretenses instead of financial).  So I say let everyone who wants to have unlimited proxy tournaments have them, and see which area turns out the better players in a year.

[zero]

Ivan, having read your posts and response, english may not be your first language, so I'll try to go easy on you. You have no idea what I'm talking about. What I said doesn't mean I want the prices to continue spiralling because I personally own power. I said that a free market is the best way to determine what the price for power (or any expensive magic card) should be, by being the best (i.e. most equitable) way for that price to be determined. And I did get away from this game, 8 years, and the price of the cards I had lying around on my floor ballooned. An extra 25 bucks isn't going to mean anything to me at this point, they're already worth more than I could have ever hoped. If you can't do a competent rebuttal, then flaming doesn't really accomplish anything. Prove your statement (understand that they need to get past their own petty differenes and relize how much better an enviornment there would be out there if evey one had all the same opportunoities, sic) to me. What does my nick name have to do with that? I'm in Smmenen's boat, I have everything, it's not about me swinging my big fat greek cock (the sequel to wedding) around. It just doesn't matter to me. I just like it when people earn it. I got 5 bazaars of baghdad in july/august when they were around $35/40, because I traded stuff that's basically still in print or extended legal for something that's been out of print for a decade. I lucked out, and the price blew up, but my point is that I've always traded that way, and it's worked out for me. I firmly believe that it could work for others also. And ebay makes everything accessible, if somewhat painfully on the wallet. That's a free market, and it's available to everyone. You are entitled to use it, you aren't entitled to a price less than someone else would pay just because you feel like it.

Zharaddan, where did I say I didn't want proxies? I already stated that I was OK with 5 for practical reasons, and feel it's a good enough compromise for both sides. It allows some to spruce up their decks, or play decks they couldn't because they only owned a few of the P9 or whatever. I'm just against the whole hand everything to everyone on a silver platter idea. Take a basic economics course and find out what price floors and ceilings do to any particular commodity, whether it be magic cards, crude oil, or housing. It screws everything. I live in new york, where all the rules and regulations and price floors means that there is a permanent housing shortage, because it's not worth it for anyone to build an apartment building only to be told what the max price they can rent apartments should be. The end result is no one builds housing, and the prices for people whose rent isn't "stabilized" continues to skyrocket.  Meanwhile, the building owners get screwed when their expenses rise 20% and they can only raise the rent 2.5%. Logically, does this benefit anyone?

Maybe I'm overanalyzing, and the same sort of destructiveness will not translate into the magic metagame. Some of my favorite magic articles are the ones by muzzono and bebe (I think), whose cleverness in making good unpowered decks never fails to amaze me. Are we against this type of creativity? I go out of my way to help optimize other people's decks when they show up at NG to play type 1; hell, 2 months ago I was in some way responsible for 4 out of 7 decks played at a friday night type 1 (my own, lent 2 out, and lent someone a sapphire, time walk and LoA). I lost to the guy I lent the big blue to (westredale on TMD), not because of the power, but because he's a better player than I am.
I point people to this website and tell them to read. It took me 2 months to figure out what was going on after i came back in 2003 and I used to have to look up cards on starcity to read them because I didn't know what anything printed after visions was, and yet they still refuse to come here and do the basic minimum needed.  No amount of proxies will fix this. Hell, NG stopped running 5 proxy tournaments because no one came to them, and it's also frustrated me quite a bit. I want more people to play, but my idea of magic "charity" is to help others out and point them in the right direction, not hand them everything on a silver platter. That's what I meant by socialism, not fiscal parity, and you're smart enough to know that, Steven. There's a reason the US economy always ends up growing faster than Europe's, even though the EU has a similar population, GDP, and technical knowledge. It's the huge costs of their socialist network knocking off 1/2 their GDP % increase each year, along with less need for creativity, because you have that net under you. I use economic analogies, because in most cases they allow you to figure out the rational decisions, and are applicable to real life events. Like I said, maybe it won't stifle growth the way it does in real life, but I've found economics rearing it's ugly head too often to dismiss it.

Smmenen, if we're lucky, your experiment will help out the metagame and increase competition. That hasn't been my experience so far, but if it proves to work I will be thrilled. I've seen JP Meyer once @ NG, and he proxied his power, but that didn't stop him from being a good deckbuilder, and maybe you're basing your ideas on the fact that he's able to make competent, rational arguments and decisions without owning P9 (If that wasn't him, d'oh, my bad). I will eagerly await the results of your tourneys; perhaps a future starcity article on this issue, along with your empirical evidence,would be helpful?

P.S. A crazy idea just popped into my head (no, really). How about we shut down TMD, stop writing articles and printing T8's, and let large proxy tournaments be the norm? Then we could see true creativity, with an all inclusive metagame. I was a ton more creative in making my own shit up, rather than netdecking someone else's work. I truly had to know my deck's weaknesses and put the right cards in my sideboard accordingly, because i didn't know what the hell I might be facing that day, but I did have to know my deck inside out. Just a thought experiment, beats whacking off to my beta lotus while someone without power sits back and watches...

[Smmenen]

what, that means you're ok with a random t2 scrub deciding to pick up the flavour of the month and proxying everything, AND winning by the sheer randomness of a god hand which he even BUTCHERED but still managed to kill you by virtue of power?

THAT is what irritates me
losing to a good player, powered or not, that's ok
broken shit happens
losing to a dickwad who doesn't know the first thing about T1 and can't be fucking bothered to get even the freaking fow, that's not ok

proxies are good
idiots proxying, that's not so good
you say it makes the field stronger
yes, to a certain extent
you get budget players who know what is going on and CAN become more competitive
but more often than not you're going to see the a/m dickwads
maybe it's the area i'm in, because i see a lot of the a/m dickwads

my 2 cents, ymmv, the usual disclaimers

It seems to me that what Jacob is alluding to is that if you are losing to scrub X with random good deck, that's your fault, and I completely agree.  If you have a full proxy tournament, and you decide to play Fish, or Big O - both good decks in a normal environment, but you take them to a proxy tournament (with UNLIMITED proxies), then you deserve what you get.

I completely agree with Gradeks post.  Well said.  

Steve

[MarkPharaoh]

All the proxy tournaments I have been to still had tons of shitty sligh and suicide. They just have shitty sligh with a lotus and a mox, instead of straight up shitty sligh. Some people are just shit, and no matter how many shitty proxies you give them, will still play shitty decks.

It's mostly like the point I tried to make earlier.  Even with the entire cardpool at your fingertips, you will still see the random bullshit decks.

[skecreatoR]

Some time ago, my local T1 tournament, which is nonproxy, was going to be held, and of course I wanted to join in. I had a choice of two decks; that being Stompy & Ankh Sligh. Stompy and Ankh sligh?! That is almost an insult. I play several MWS matches a day, sometimes I play around 20, if I got the time. I love to play Keeper, wMUD, Death.Long, GAT and so forth. I am a combination & control player. I do not really enjoy playing decks which only asset is simple aggro. It is simply no fun being beaten up by every good deck around, which is the case about 90% of the time. I realized after that tournament, that I myself had to create fun & powerful budget decks. I created Belcher, The Gro & Artifax (A wMUD look-a-like) decks, used a lot of time creating these and tested against every viable deck (I know a bunch of guys having more then one full power set, so we did a lot of testing there). Sure, the explosive start of Workshop & Mox > Lock was to much to overcome, but I quickly realized two things.

1, that I could with a fine tuned deck go 50/50 against them.

2, that it is the mana acceleration that powered them.

The first might look amazing, some people will probably think they are bad players, that is not the case, and I know it does, but budget can be fast. Very fast. My charbelcher deck can, without disruption take turn3 almost all the time. That is fast enough to compete at our meta. We have the usual guys running their fully powered decks; being Keeper or Tog. We have a Long, a semi powered Dragon & some other powered players. These guys are our local elite, playing what Paragon, Yellow Bus & Mean Deck create. Then we have the rest. Oh god, horrible to think of. We have White Weenie, bunches of decks I never figure out why to build in the first place. This is truly annoying. Sure, there is a lot of innovation, some times, but other times you are just bored by the lack of meta'ed decks. I enjoy a match against Keeper more then a match against URG Beatdown, with Mountain Goat in the sideboard.

Point being, there is a crossroad. One way is to allow a 5/10 proxy tournament, this was turned down with a 65%/35% vote, and let people build the decks they want to play. Yet, 60% of the meta would have no idea what to play, and would just make URG/Goat.dec a little faster with power. Hooray. So in my case, proxies isn't a sure way to make T1 more competetive. We have a bunch of talented players who are on a budget, more or less tight, we have FoWs at best. We also together pack about 60 duals, with a little luck, and enough cards to create most viable in budget. We would love a Proxy10 or Proxy5 rule. Just the idea to create my belcher deck with one land, instead of 3, makes me wet. It would surely turn our meta into a more TMD'ish meta, the dream meta. Otherwise, it could go horribly wrong.

That's why it is somehow still most logical to let each tournament decidede their own rules concering proxies, then create a worldwide union or standard for proxy rules.

On the other hand, just as much as I would love proxies, one thing strikes me. That being that I would like to actualy have power. To throw a mox down would mean so much to me. Just to have 4 drains is so much more to the game of magic. It is another dimension to me. Thats why all the discussion whether to include them or not somehow lacks the dimension of pure love to the real cards, also how well equipped & knowing the meta is - Goatdec is actually a viable competetitor here. I am 15years of age, and is just lacking the money to invest in power. But I learned after countless hours on MWS and TMD that T1 is about speed and owning power. It is just a fact. And it can only be worked on to a certain extinct. But as long as we can work us around that extinct and develop new decks, I will continue to play T1. And with a little luck I might end up with the power, but who knows...

Just my $.02

[Nameless]

"Lots and lots of awesome shit..."

Just my $.02

Awesome...  I pretty much love everything you had to say there.

To everybody else:  Screw you!

No, I'm kidding.  

...

No, I'm not.

...

No, no, seriously, I'm kidding.  

Or, maybe not...

Anyway...

Alright, lemme' put it this way.  Can anybody actually show me some real results that using 5 proxies or so actually improves the metagame and player turnout somehow?

I'm willing to submit to the viability of using a few proxies...  But, 10 or more is just too many.  It's just plain stupid really, but I suppose that's more opinion then fact.  People always have Apprentice if they want to play entirely proxies decks.  Hell, they can even get prizes, there's always eLeague out there, right?

The thing is this, I'll buy that it's a little more fun for those without power to proxy up a few peices and get a better shot at some heads.  I don't think it's right, or in any way shape or form to the masses, that people arbitrarily whip up decks consisting primarily of fake cards.

[dandan]

I think it is fairly clear that although allowing 5 proxies making Type  much more open to newer players, allowing more proxies opens it up even more. Where to draw the line?

I think that the proxy rule is aimed at introducing newer players to the format. Many of them have had their ideas filled with strange notions about Type 1, one of the strongest pieces of misinformation is how the Power 9 make any deck better. Hence make 9 the magic number and let people see for themselves if they want to use those precious 9 proxies on the Power 9 or whether there are better cards that the Power 9.

To be honest, I doubt if it would be too hard to show that the more widesprease of proxies has occured at a time when Type 1 tournaments, interest and Type 1 card prices are rising. Cause and effect is harder but I know it would be impossible for anyone to sensibly claim that the widespread use of the 5 (or more) Proxy rule has led to a decline in the cost of 'power' cards. Having a deck with a proxy in it makes you want to have that card. Not having a deck because you can't afford a card in it is far less likely to make you buy that card.

[Ivantheterrible]

Zero I do understand what you are saying, english is my first language but I am the suck at spelling, and I am sorry if you are pissed or cionfused by my use of jokes/insults.

I understand what you are talking about I just dont agree with it. I think that the goal her should be having fun playing the game and (as long as they are nice prints proxys shouldn't take away from the fun of the game.

I understand that those who own power might get pissed off if it drops because of a proxy rule  but I think overall the fun of the game shouldn't come from saying I played the market the right way and got a beta lotus now everyone should, the fun should come from the actuall game.

Remember you are only buying a card. You wouldn't pay $300 for a piece ofcardboard if it didn't mean something more then that which is to you what it means in the game.

If I were willing to   pay the money for the power it would be because I love the game not because I cum when ever I see the picture on that small piece of cardboard (although black lotus dose have awsome art.)

My point is our thoughts shouldn't be on the market(piety diferences) but on the game and having fun.

[Smash]

But like many others, you seem to avoid the ENTIRE point of the fact that magic is not meant to be a game like chess or monopoly where all people have equal pools. That is what apprentice is for.

Magic is meant to be two people using the resources they have, and using that to play. I doubt that anyone has a) every card ever printed in big enough quantities and b) such a perfectly organized collection that they always find what they want. Even with my fairly large collection, I often lose a random dual land here and there, and have to shove in something else for a tourney. Its part of the game. I couldn't care less about the secondary market, it will take care of itself. I don't want proxies because this is a CCG, not a CG.

[ctthespian]

@Ivan:  Some of us with very nice collections, despite the love of the game, see our collections as an investment.  Reprints hurting my cards values I can live with.  The decision to allow greater proxying to avoid putting money into the game which will then hurt my collections prices I can't live with as easily.

This comment is aimed at nobody in particualr.  If you want to play in type 1 suck it up and invest.

-Keith

[Ivantheterrible]

Kieth think about this:
 If for some reason 10 proxies(what I think there should be)  causes prices on power which semmen man has said probably won thappen due to Dci santcioned tournments existing if proxies do make power prices go down then they will eventaually be gotten rid of because all of a suden they are at a lower price and they will then go back up again.

Also remember that investing in magic cards isn't like investing in a bank it is more like investing in a drug deal. It is temporary and not to relaible these cards could go down at any time or the game could just stop!

Imagine shelling out 2 grand in a bank the money grows slowly but steadily and reliably investing in a beta lotus for 2 grand however is different it will grow at a faster pace but eventaually the game wll probably fall apart and those cards you once payed thoushands upon thoushands of dollars will be good for only one thing: Burning to keep warm

This shaky investment idea is another argument for proxies this game will probably eventually fall apart so why shoud so many people just starting the game be asked to pay the ridiculos prices these days for power. They should be allowed to proxy them

[rhecht]

While following this debate over the past couple days I remembered a short article on the wizards web page about where the pro's get their cards for constructed tournaments.  You can find it here:  http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=sideboard/askpros/0903

I found it interesting to see how out of this small sampling of players, several of them do not "own" the cards they use in professional tournaments.  They are not purchasing product and they do not have extensive collections.  I don't know what percentage of pros actually have collections, and the "professional" status of course includes sponsorship as in any sport.  But I think that with all of the talk about ownership this is relevent.  I also think that professional magic has a well defined and interesting metagame, this is because they have "free" access to any and all cards in the constructed formats.

-Reuben Hecht

[Ric_Flair]

There are more specious arguments in this thread than there are in a middle school lunchroom.  What the hell happened to the quality of posts here?  Steve, Jacob, and Nameless are the only people that have reposted that are even semi-coherent.  Let's raise the bar a bit and try to make some headway here.

First, I think both sides have one thing in common:  they like competition.  Nameless mentions the fact that acquiring Power is part of the competition in Vintage.  And Steve mentions the fact that he would rather have a competitive metagame than a shitty one.  This dedication to competition is important.  It is why we play this game.  It is the central element of Magic, be it from a collector's point of view or a player's point of view.  Competition is the name of the game.

But Nameless's argument is based on an implicit misunderstanding.  He claims that our ability to collect the Power is part of the Vintage game.  This understanding places equal weight on two aspects of Magic that are, in fact, not equally important.  Time and again Wizards has proven that function and the game element of Magic trumps the collectibility issues.  But that is Wizards and not us, so perhaps that argument fails in the Vintage community.  

But in the end, even Vintage players value playskill over collection.  If we are to say that our collections demarcate the limits of our decks then we must eliminate proxies, borrowing cards, and lending people decks.  After all, all three things are playing cards we don't have.  Magic is a game first and a collectible second.  That does not mean that is a game exclusively, but until we tally victories by measuring the value of our decks or collections, the collectibility aspect of Magic must be a secondary consideration.  

If collections were truly equally important than pimp decks should be mirror non pimp decks.  Who cares if a person doesn't have a card they play with in a tournament?  Ultimately it what they do with that card that matters.  Its not lose 20 life or play a $4,000 deck.  

As a second argument, what do people lose by allowing other's to proxy?  They don't lose an edge in the game, because everyone has the same card pool now.  They don't lose money, because they have something of value, and the last time I checked Power was still going up in price.  They don't lose the ability to do cool shit with Power.  It just doesn't make sense.  Allowing other people to proxy cards costs people who have power nothing.  No loss of skill or money.  

The only GOOD reason to limit the number of proxies is for administrative reasons.  Other than that the game aspect of Magic should and always does trump the collectibility aspect.  

As a curious side note to all the chicken littles, the price of Power has in fact increased at is fastest rate EVER since proxies were allowed.  Since Wizards will never let them in sanctioned events, there will always be demand.  I still want a Lotus even though I have a proxy that works just as well in 90% of tournaments.  If your truly a collector you will collect the cards even if you don't need them for a deck.

@Nameless:

I'm willing to submit to the viability of using a few proxies... But, 10 or more is just too many. It's just plain stupid really, but I suppose that's more opinion then fact. People always have Apprentice if they want to play entirely proxies decks. Hell, they can even get prizes, there's always eLeague out there, right?

This is the bald paradox.  If I am totally bald and one hair grows in am I not bald anymore?  What about 2 hairs?  10?  50? The issue is where do we rationally draw the line?  3 is clearly too few.  No top tier deck can run with fewer than 4 cards worth more than $100.  Moxen and Lotus are automatic.  That's 2.  Now every other deck runs Bazaars, Masks, Workshops or Time Walk/Ancestral.  That is 4.  Most decks run three colors, which means 3 Moxen, 1 Lotus, and then either Walk/Ancestral and/or Bazaar, Mask, or Workshop.  5 is not enough.  There are rational reasons to set the limit higher than 5 and none for setting lower.  Proxies are not causing cards to lose value.  The facts prove otherwise.

[Zharradan]

Take a basic economics course and find out what price floors and ceilings do to any particular commodity, whether it be magic cards, crude oil, or housing.

I'd rather have a strong environment at a tournament that truely tests the skill of the players than worry about how much a Lotus will cost tomorrow. In my opinion, this can only happen when every player has the abliity to put together any deck they want.

We obviously have different priorities.

[Nameless]

There are more specious arguments in this thread than there are in a middle school lunchroom.  What the hell happened to the quality of posts here?  Steve, Jacob, and Nameless are the only people that have reposted that are even semi-coherent.  Let's raise the bar a bit and try to make some headway here.

First, I think both sides have one thing in common:  they like competition.  Nameless mentions the fact that acquiring Power is part of the competition in Vintage.  And Steve mentions the fact that he would rather have a competitive metagame than a shitty one.  This dedication to competition is important.  It is why we play this game.  It is the central element of Magic, be it from a collector's point of view or a player's point of view.  Competition is the name of the game.

But Nameless's argument is based on an implicit misunderstanding.  He claims that our ability to collect the Power is part of the Vintage game.  This understanding places equal weight on two aspects of Magic that are, in fact, not equally important.  Time and again Wizards has proven that function and the game element of Magic trumps the collectibility issues.  But that is Wizards and not us, so perhaps that argument fails in the Vintage community.  

But in the end, even Vintage players value playskill over collection.  If we are to say that our collections demarcate the limits of our decks then we must eliminate proxies, borrowing cards, and lending people decks.  After all, all three things are playing cards we don't have.  Magic is a game first and a collectible second.  That does not mean that is a game exclusively, but until we tally victories by measuring the value of our decks or collections, the collectibility aspect of Magic must be a secondary consideration.  

If collections were truly equally important than pimp decks should be mirror non pimp decks.  Who cares if a person doesn't have a card they play with in a tournament?  Ultimately it what they do with that card that matters.  Its not lose 20 life or play a $4,000 deck.  

As a second argument, what do people lose by allowing other's to proxy?  They don't lose an edge in the game, because everyone has the same card pool now.  They don't lose money, because they have something of value, and the last time I checked Power was still going up in price.  They don't lose the ability to do cool shit with Power.  It just doesn't make sense.  Allowing other people to proxy cards costs people who have power nothing.  No loss of skill or money.  

The only GOOD reason to limit the number of proxies is for administrative reasons.  Other than that the game aspect of Magic should and always does trump the collectibility aspect.  

As a curious side note to all the chicken littles, the price of Power has in fact increased at is fastest rate EVER since proxies were allowed.  Since Wizards will never let them in sanctioned events, there will always be demand.  I still want a Lotus even though I have a proxy that works just as well in 90% of tournaments.  If your truly a collector you will collect the cards even if you don't need them for a deck.

@Nameless:

I'm willing to submit to the viability of using a few proxies... But, 10 or more is just too many. It's just plain stupid really, but I suppose that's more opinion then fact. People always have Apprentice if they want to play entirely proxies decks. Hell, they can even get prizes, there's always eLeague out there, right?

This is the bald paradox.  If I am totally bald and one hair grows in am I not bald anymore?  What about 2 hairs?  10?  50? The issue is where do we rationally draw the line?  3 is clearly too few.  No top tier deck can run with fewer than 4 cards worth more than $100.  Moxen and Lotus are automatic.  That's 2.  Now every other deck runs Bazaars, Masks, Workshops or Time Walk/Ancestral.  That is 4.  Most decks run three colors, which means 3 Moxen, 1 Lotus, and then either Walk/Ancestral and/or Bazaar, Mask, or Workshop.  5 is not enough.  There are rational reasons to set the limit higher than 5 and none for setting lower.  Proxies are not causing cards to lose value.  The facts prove otherwise.

Now THAT was 100% solid.  I think I was insulted there, but I'm not sure...  I like that!  

But towards the end there you came closer to what I guess I'm really trying to get at, and I applaud your sense of understanding, wether you intended it or not...

The question I want answered is where DO we draw the line?

You state that we burn up two cards right there in using a proxy for the Lotus, and a Mox.  Well, crap man, shouldn't 3 be enough then?

Look, I know what you're trying to say.  You think everybody and anybody should be able to play any deck they want, no matter what.  At that point we'd have a true metagame to recon with.  And you know what?  I almost agree...  But, now this is where I want you to turn the table, please.  You see, I'm willing to see your side of it, now I want you to see mine.

I started Magic, quite litterally, when it came out, in Rolla, MO.  For those Magic history buffs you can do quite a bit of tracing back to that place, but that's for another time...  When we played nobody had all the cards.  We made the best we had out of what we had, and that was that.  Shit, most people didn't even know what all the cards were, much less have a complete collection!  I learned to play the game like this, and decks evolved in a way I cannot possibly describe...  But, I'll try.  

I've owned more power cards then a dozen of the average Mana Drain readers have ever had comebined, and I sold them off.  I was barely 20 back then, and when I got myself into a slump I'd sell off all my cards for cash, and part for a few months.  The thing is, the game has always drew me back in, partly because of that allure...  I make the best with what I've got.  Now, lucky for me, I had friends that were as loaded, if not more so, then I was before with power.  When I needed a deck I'd sit back and think up something, borrow all the power cards I needed, and play.  The thing is, I won those tournaments, and rebuilt my collection from there.

Now, I know what you're thinking...  Well, damn, Nameless, isn't that exactly what we're saying?  Only we don't need friends to borrow from then?

OK, that's a fair point.  The thing is, I needed those cards I won, to stay competitive.  Then my friends could loan out power to other people, and they'd get into it, just like I did a dozen times over.

You see where I'm going with this?

If you don't need the power, then why keep them.  Why play in the tournaments when they don't offer anything you need.  Then you're just playing for the fun of it.  Well, shit man, you can have fun at home with your friends.  You don't need to drive a dozen hours in a musty car with half a dozen guys that forgot to shower to do that, do you?  What's the lure?  Who wants to win a Mox if you don't need it to play?  Sell it, you say?  Why?  They don't have any value anymore, because people don't need them.  If people don't need them, then what are we giving away as prizes then?  A box of the new set?  Why?  People can just proxy cards they don't have anyway, so what use is that?  To promote Standard?  Standard doesn't need any promoting, the money grubbers and vampiric stores do that for us.

What is the lure?  Why are you playing for nothing?

Maybe...  Maybe I just miss that lure, or at least would miss it if this proxy thing gets out of hand.  I WANT to let a reasonable number of proxies be allowed, but obviously what I consider reasonable and what many others think it is are two (or more) different things.  I want everybody to have access to those friends that loaned me cards, in a manner of speaking.  I want people to be able to enjoy the game...  And...  I want my rewards for winning.

Maybe that makes sense, and maybe it doesn't...  I mean hell, it makes sense to me, but then again I said it.

So does anybody get where I'm commin' from then?  Or, maybe, I'm just out-dated...

[Metman]

I can not believe the level of arrogance here.  

Magic is supposed to be a game of fun and social get together.  Yes, it is very competitive, and yes people take it very seriously but those people should not keep players that want to play the game from playing.  

It is absolutely no skin off your back if a twelve year old boy that isn't allowed to work nor comes from a family that can support a five thousand dollar card game hobby wants to play.  You don't think he respects what you have laid out in front of you?  Do you think that he doesn't wish that he had a full set of power,  workshops, bazaars, loa, drains, masks, and duels...a real set?

Not allowing him to play because you have an ego is absurd.  Not everybody has a full time job and can afford to spend the kind of money that Vintage magic demands.  

You know what?  I say this as a fully powered player, and the reason I'm fully powered is because I started playing Magic when I could take the pop cans in the house to the store and buy a Mox with the money I collected.  You all think that you belong to some kind of elitest group.  You don't though.  Don't turn your back on people that can't afford the game.  They make up a lot of the competition that you beat to win the power you already own.  Show them some generosity.

[Zharradan]

Nameless, I don't think anybody has said that every tournament should allow proxies - instead the point being made is that there is a place for some tournaments to allow proxies, and even to allow a large number of them.
The prizes for winning these tournaments allow you to build your collection, and then enter tournaments with more restrictive proxying rules.

Should (or would) something like GenCon ever be a proxy tournament? No. Should people be able to play the game in competitive environments locally to practice and aquire needed cards to enter "big name" tournaments like that? I say yes, and can't really think of a convincing argument for the "no" case.

So far, all I've read from this thread backing up the "no" side summarises as "I have power, so nobody should be allowed to proxy anything anywhere, ever". T1 will never grow with this attitude.

[Magi]

there should be a limit though


Unlimited proxies is just dumb. Someone has to proxy a $5 rare?

Proxies should be just for those cards which have reached retarded status (Workshops, Bazaars, Drains, and the power).

Every hobby has a basic cost to play. You can't proxy a Snowboard, can't proxy some woodworking tools, can't proxy a set of turntables or bla bla bla...you want to play T1? Get the basics (Duals, Forces, Fetchies, staple rares/commons/uncommons).

So I'm kinda on the fence here. I think some proxies should be okay, because of the ridiculous price hike of some cards which are becoming staple in lots of decks (I'm looking at you Bazaar and Workshop). 10 is a good limit, allows you to proxy a set of LoMox's and 4 of either Bazaar, Workshop or Drains (I don't think there's a deck that will use shops, bazaars AND drains, yet ;p ) but at the same time unlimited amount of proxies is kinda stupid, I mean, why buy cards if you can just proxy them!

Also, I really don't see why some people get so riled up. If person X who lives in Y wants to run unlimited proxy tournaments, why should that affect person Z who lives in X1 who has regular 3 proxy tournies.

[Ric_Flair]

For the people that think all proxies is magical socialism, shut up.  If you want a political fight, let's go to some other forum, not TMD, and I will make you look like the unlearned, retard that you are.  This is not meant to be a flame, just to end the veiled political discussions RIGHT NOW.   They are off topic and inappropriate.  Allowing proxies is not socialism and not allow them is not elitism.  Don't use those loaded words here.  Stay on topic, or this thread will be closed by a smart mod.  

If we can have a civilized, not partisan discussion about the issue I think we can solve the problem and help put in place a new solution.  So let's stay focused.

@Magi:

Proxies should be just for those cards which have reached retarded status (Workshops, Bazaars, Drains, and the power).

Magi and others point out Nameless' problem.  We need a specific, administratively simple solution to the proxy problem.  "Retarded level" is not said workable standard.  Price is also not a workable standard, because prices flucuate and there is no one standard price guide.  Plus, using price fails because it is not a good standard.  Standards are designed with stability and predictibility in mind.  People cannot count on prices staying the same for cards and thus cannot proxy those cards in decks.  Pre-Legends is a good idea, but there are problems here too.  What about City of Brass, as an example?  It is a pre-Legends card, but has been reprinted many times.  How do we handle this card or cards like it.  This leaves the card neutral solution of a fixed number.  I think that in the end this is the best solution.  Let's not look at cards and deem them proxy worthy.  This will engender debate and expansion or contraction of the proxy list, like the B&R list does not.  With a card neutral proxy policy we will have the stability and predictibility desired.  Now the question is what is the right number.  I believe that the right number is 10.  10 will allow people to build Workshop decks and still preserve the value of cards.  This is, of course, up for debate, so have at it.

@ Nameless:

First, no veiled insult.  I promise.  If you took it as such I am sorry.  Respect and a well thought out response are the only things I intended.  Second,

If you don't need the power, then why keep them. Why play in the tournaments when they don't offer anything you need. Then you're just playing for the fun of it. Well, shit man, you can have fun at home with your friends.

This quote belays your committments and shows why you can't see this issue in the same light as Steve or myself.  It is not about Power.  It is not about cards you need or even the prize.  It is about the highest level of competition possible.  Why play in events if you don't need anything?  Because you want to test yourself and your skill.  This is the heart of the game as far as I am concerned.  The prizes are there to lure those people who have the skill but would otherwise not be motivated.  If there was no prize and good competition I would still play in an event.  Ultimately a Lotus or a Mox or cash is a secondary concern.  I play this game because I like the mental challenge.  The rest is bonus.  And staying at home just does not offer the competition that a Waterbury or a Regionals does, hence the events.  If, however, you believe that collecting is the heart of the game, obviously unlimited proxies are anathema.  

Supposing, however, that this conflict is unresolvable, I still think there is another justification for proxies insofar as depreciation is concerned.  As I mentioned in my first post, so long as Wizards bans proxies, the real cards will have value.  Furthermore, time has shown that since proxies were allow the value of the real things has risen, not falled.  These are the facts and they are not contestable.  Unlimited proxies MIGHT affect that formula, but the fact that they are banned in official tournaments precludes the collapse of all prices.

[Dr. Sylvan]

We need a specific, administratively simple solution to the proxy problem.  "Retarded level" is not said workable standard.  Price is also not a workable standard, because prices flucuate and there is no one standard price guide.  Plus, using price fails because it is not a good standard.  Standards are designed with stability and predictibility in mind.  People cannot count on prices staying the same for cards and thus cannot proxy those cards in decks.  Pre-Legends is a good idea, but there are problems here too.  What about City of Brass, as an example?  It is a pre-Legends card, but has been reprinted many times.  How do we handle this card or cards like it.

Nitpicking time. I think we agree on the overall need for proxies, Tony. In fact, I don't care if it's the 10-px standard, the pre-Legends standard, or a specific proxyable list...I just want to point out that I think there's more than one solution.

I dispute the unworkability of either the "retardedly expensive" or the time-sensitive tests. Our format has some three score card names which we're all required to know are banned or restricted. Having a specific list of proxyable cards, even if it fluctuates over time, is not unworkable. The time-sensitive criteria would impose the same burden of information on a proxier as would the simple act of playing in a format that doesn't include all sets--every Extended player is responsible for knowing what's been reprinted recently enough to be allowed. This is simply reversing the issue to know what *hasn't* been reprinted. Neither of these solutions is impracticable, the only issue (which is present in any method of permitting proxies) is what the specific delimiter is.

That said, I don't understand opposition to proxies. The supply of certain cards is artificially super-low, and they will always be in demand either from collectors or from people who play sanctioned, regardless of people running proxy tournaments. Proxies are a way to *boost* the investment's value through expanding the player base, not to reduce it. And this from a rabid, heartless capitalist of the most extreme character, who also owns three pieces of Power and a set of Mana Drains.