Darksteel Colossus and rule 217.1c (and Welder)

[Dante]

It would seem that rule 217.1c and the text on Darksteel Colossus would prevent weldering a colossus, but I don't believe it does...

the relevant rule:

217.1c An object that moves from one zone to another is treated as a new object. Effects connected with its previous location will no longer affect it. There are two exceptions to this rule: Effects that edit the characteristics of an artifact, creature, or enchantment spell on the stack will continue to apply to the permanent that spell creates, and abilities that trigger when an object moves from one zone to another (for example, “When Rancor is put into a graveyard from play”) can find the object in the zone it moved to when the ability triggered.


Obviously the important part is "...abilities that trigger when an object moves from one zone to another can find the object in the zone it moved to when the ability triggered."

But the fact is, if you try to welder the Colossus, the card is moving away from the zone that triggered it, not TO the zone that triggered it.

so the way I see it:

Step 1 - Colossus moves to the graveyard (moving to graveyard zone), triggering its effect and putting that effect on the stack.
Step 2 - Activate welder, choosing the Colossus and some artifact in play.  That ability resolves first, putting the Colossus into play.
Step 3 - Colossus "moving to graveyard" triggered ability resolves, but the Colossus is not in the graveyard anymore (the zone that it moved to when the ability was triggered), so the effect fizzles.

This also seems to be supported by 410.10:

410.10. Trigger events that involve objects changing zones are called “zone-change triggers.” Many abilities with zone-change triggers attempt to do something to that object after it changes zones. During resolution, these abilities look for the object in the zone that it moved to. If the object is unable to be found in the zone it went to, the part of the ability attempting to do something to the object will fail to do anything. The ability could be unable to find the object because the object never entered the specified zone, because it left the zone before the ability resolved, or because it is in a zone that is hidden from a player, such as a library or an opponent’s hand.


I only go through all this because I have had several people tell me you can't welder the colossus back into play and I believe, according to the rules above, that you CAN welder it into play, provided you have an active welder.  In all the rules above, the graveyard is the zone the Colossus moved TO when the triggered ability happens, and by weldering it, it is no longer in the graveyard when the ability resolves on the stack, so nothing would happen (see 410.10).

Can the actual certified judges comment on this?

thanks,

Bill

[Matt]

Colossus' ability isn't triggered. It's a replacement effect, not a triggered ability. Colossus can never be in the graveyard, for any reason - anything that would put it there is replaced with "Shuffle D.C. into your library."

Example: Colossus in play, Ornithopter in the garveyard, Welder in play.

Welder's ability reads:
: Choose target artifact a player controls and target artifact card in that player's graveyard. If both targets are still legal as this ability resolves, that player sacrifices the artifact in play, then puts the other artifact from his or her graveyard into play.

And Colossus':
If Darksteel Colossus would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, reveal Darksteel Colossus and shuffle it into its owner's library instead.

So when you attempt to Welder the Colossus, the Colossus' replacement ability replaces part of the Welder's ability. After applying the Colossus' effect, you treat the resolution of the Welder's ability as if it said:

Choose target artifact a player controls and target artifact card in that player's graveyard. If both targets are still legal as this ability resolves, that player reveals Darksteel Colossus and shuffles it into its owner's library instead, then puts the other artifact from his or her graveyard into play.

It's not EXACTLY like that text-splicing, but you treat it the same. A difference is that the Colossus is still sacrificed, so if there was a card that said "Whenever you sacrifice a creature, gain 2 life" in play you'd still gain life.

[RoadTrippin]

Step 1 - Colossus moves to the graveyard (moving to graveyard zone), triggering its effect and putting that effect on the stack.

I don't get it. The bold part never happens. Can't it all end there?

Edit: well, Matt's explanation kicks ass.. too late :/

[Dante]

Thanks Matt, I see the replacement effect now (I totally missed the word "instead" at the end of the Colossus's text).

@ Road Trippin' - don't take this personally, but your posts will be better received if you explained them (as Matt did), instead of "no, that's wrong" and not explaining why...

Dante

[RoadTrippin]

Err.. I did explain, but after I submitted the post I noticed Matt was explaining it better and his was submitted before mine (or however the timing works) so I just edited it out. Would you mind PM'ing me a link to another such post where I've done this, so I can be more careful in the future? Thanks.