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Author Topic: [Deck discussion] Madrid 1st - Nether Void w/ Bazaars  (Read 3305 times)
Hanzalot
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« on: February 15, 2004, 03:36:58 pm »

I want to direct attention to the deck that recently won a tournament in Madrid. From what I can tell from the top 8 the tournament was rather power heavy (6 of 8 lists), so I think this somewhat unusual deck deserves a bit of discussion.

First of all here is the deck list (from Morphling.de):

// Gul's Roul's by Alejandro Escribano

3 Ashen Ghoul
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Duress
1 Entomb
3 Nether Void
3 Zombie Infestation

1 Ancestral Recall
3 Circular Logic
4 Force of Will
2 Intuition
1 Mystical Tutor
2 Stifle
1 Time Walk
3 Turbulent Dreams

4 Squee, Goblin Nabob

1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
2 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
2 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland

SB:
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Coffin Purge
1 Duress
4 Energy Flux
2 Sickening Dreams
1 Stifle
1 Wonder
1 Zombie Infestation

Initial Thoughts: Well, a few things don't look too good:

1) It's a whooping 63 cards. Cutting down would surely be an improvement.

2) The mana base contains a record breaking 12 non-colored lands and has only 9 blue and 9 black sourcess, though 4 basic lands help a little. Also the opponent probably wants to save his wastes for bazaars and factories.

3) It has only moxen and Sol Ring for accelleration which combined with bazaars means Nether Void will hit rather late.

On the plus side there is clear synergy between the Nether Void element and the ghouls and zombie infestations in addition to the traditional synergy between the discard outlets and squee, ghouls and circular logic. Also Turbulent Dreams looks interesting...

So what do YOU think? Is this a "pile" that caught a lucky break or a deck list with potential? Any suggestions on improving the list?

Finally if Alejandro or any players that have seen this deck in action are here at TMD it would be great to hear from them.
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« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2004, 04:17:27 pm »

I'm just quite amazed that he was able to win with such a shakey mana base! I'm trying to figure out how he could have played spells with such little coloured mana.
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« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2004, 04:27:00 pm »

He's european, they all get away with such horrible mana bases somehow. We think it's thier water supply.

As for the deck, I'm very torn on it. It looks like a pile, but then it looks interesting at the same time. It reminds me of a deck I used to play with the Zombie Infestation. Though mine was purely fun and lacked any power/real testing. The Nether Void + Zombie Infestation is a very nice touch, especially with the ghouls. Being able to bring out more threats while still under a void is very solid. I think with a lot of testing and fixing of the mana base for non-europeans, it could possible work. Though it remains to be seen if this is actually better than regular Nether Void or not.

Couple quick comments, is the one Entomb worth it? Wouldn't a 3rd Intuition be better? Getting only 1 card to the yard doesn't seem all the very helpful in this deck, whereas getting 3 is much better. And Turbulent dreams? Just to bounce thier stuff before dropping the Void or was there enough aggro type decks to justify this?
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« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2004, 06:52:37 pm »

Quote from: Hanzalot
2) The mana base contains a record breaking 12 non-colored lands and has only 9 blue and 9 black sourcess, though 4 basic lands help a little.

Quote from: Petko
I'm just quite amazed that he was able to win with such a shakey mana base! I'm trying to figure out how he could have played spells with such little coloured mana.

Quote from: BrokenNut
He's european, they all get away with such horrible mana bases somehow.

If you analyze his card choices, you will see that outside of Turbulent Dreams, he will never be hard casting a spell with double-blue or double-black in the casting cost. No Mana Drain, Hymn to Tourach, Sinkhole, etc. Throughout most of the game he will simply need one blue or one black. And as Hanzalot mentioned, I'm sure his opponents were much more weary of a Bazaar or Factory then they were with his colored mana.

Quote from: BrokenNut
Couple quick comments, is the one Entomb worth it? Wouldn't a 3rd Intuition be better? Getting only 1 card to the yard doesn't seem all the very helpful in this deck, whereas getting 3 is much better. And Turbulent dreams? Just to bounce thier stuff before dropping the Void or was there enough aggro type decks to justify this?

At first glance, you might think another Intuition would be better, but most of the time he's probably Entombing for a Squee, Wonder, or Ashen Ghoul, and at a cost of only one black mana (as opposed to 3 mana). It comes off quicker and lets him abuse the Bazaar engine earlier in the game. It's also cheaper to cast under a Nether Void (4 mana, as opposed to 7). I've never even seen Turbulent Dreams, but in this highly customized deck I'm sure it's there for a reason, just to remove problematic permanents and taking full advantage of his Squees and Ashen Ghouls.

Quote
So what do YOU think? Is this a "pile" that caught a lucky break or a deck list with potential?

I think the deck has potential. I'm not sure what I would do with it exactly (having not played it), but I would definitely trim it down to 60 cards.
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Matt
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« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2004, 07:33:08 pm »

This deck looks ridiculously like this one I made waaaay back in April:

//NAME: Untitled Deck
// Other
        4 Bazaar of Baghdad
        4 Nether Void
        3 Intuition
        4 Standstill
        1 Time Walk
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Demonic Tutor
// Disruption
        4 Cabal Therapy
        4 Duress
// Suitable Win
        4 Zombie Infestation
        4 Squee, Goblin Nabob
        1 Wonder
// Mana
        1 Flooded Strand
        1 Bloodstained Mire
        4 Polluted Delta
        4 Underground Sea
        1 Island
        1 Swamp

        4 Mishra's Factory
        4 Wasteland
        1 Strip Mine

        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Jet

SB:  3 Control Magic
SB:  3 Withered Wretch
SB:  1 Wonder
SB:  3 Smother
SB:  2 Energy Flux
SB:  2 Null Rod

It's fun but it had serious problems with GAT so it was abandoned.
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Hanzalot
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« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2004, 11:34:40 am »

BrokenNut:
Quote
As for the deck, I'm very torn on it. It looks like a pile, but then it looks interesting at the same time.


This was exactly how I felt when I saw it and hence thought it would be worthwhile to discuss the deck.

JACO:
Quote
If you analyze his card choices, you will see that outside of Turbulent Dreams, he will never be hard casting a spell with double-blue or double-black in the casting cost. No Mana Drain, Hymn to Tourach, Sinkhole, etc. Throughout most of the game he will simply need one blue or one black.


All true. Perhaps it isn't all that shaky after all. One thing to notice is the lack of fetchlands compared to the list posted by Matt which has 6 compared to 2 in the Madrid list. While it is obvious that drawing lands is often good under a Void extra fetches could help against color screw. As it is there is actually quite a few permanent on-color lands (6 of each to be exact). This number is higher than what you find in a lot of other decks (e.g. there are usually only 4 taiga and perhaps 1 mountain in TnT).

Looking at Matt's list again, he has chosen to cut a couple of moxen which seems right since they are bad under Void. Also adding the lotus seems like a no-brainer since it allows early (broken) Intuition and Nether Void plays.

This frees up one or two slots depending on if we're keeping the Ruby or not and I think another slot can be found by cutting 1 Turbulent Dreams. Sure it's neat utility and a discard outlet for Ghoul but with UU in the cc I think 3 is at least one to many.

However, by cutting moxen we are in danger of becomming too land light - so any ideas on what else to cut? Duress? Stifle? Perhaps cut the 3 Duress in favor of the 3rd Stifle and the 4th Circular Logic which as a side effect gives us more cards that pitches to FoW? Duress is nice, though...

I'm also not sure if the 3/3 ratio between infestations and ghouls is the right one. Testing the 4th infestation seems obligatory.
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« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2004, 03:22:29 pm »

I'm not a big fan of the Circular Logics. They are really only effective once your graveyard is fat and setup, and with an active discard piece on the board. By that time, it should be just about game because you are setup and doing what you need to do. Would perhaps the freebie Misdirection be a better choice?

Without the logics does the deck really even need Bazaar? I'm looking at it and there are only 7 cards you really want to pitch to it, and with the intuitions/entombs, they will usually end up where you want them initially anyways. Dragon uses bazaar more as a combo piece than a draw engine. Madness uses it as a draw engine, but then, most of that deck is pitchable to it. This deck there is so few to pitch, it doesn't seem like a very effective draw engine. Especially when there are better uses for the squees, namely Zombie Infestation.

/me goes and does some testing and stuff now to see how it all works. Looks like a very interesting deck, especially for around here because of all the control hate that is possible to go into the deck, FoW, MisD, Logic, Duress, Therapy. Good stuff.
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« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2004, 03:53:25 pm »

BrokenNut,

I'm fairly certain that Bazaar is an integral part of this deck's engine. First, of course, it is good per se to draw cards using Squee. Beyond that, however, it allows the deck to set up its Ashen engine without needing to run all that many creatures. By continually dumping Squees into the graveyard above the Ghouls, it can recur them while at the same time digging deeper with Bazaar.

Does Bazaar have less than perfect synergy with Infestation? Well, perhaps. Even so, they are both good threat mechanisms, allowing the deck to generate creatures -- zombies and Ghouls -- despite being unable to cast spells due to a Void. Moreover, the deck will probably have a few cards to discard once a Void is in play. Finally, while Infestation is good once the Void is in place, the Bazaars will allow the deck to find those cards in the first place.

As for Circular Logic, there's so much graveyard hate running around now that this card seems like a fine choice.
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« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2004, 05:56:34 pm »

First of all, sorry for the somewhat random order of this post,  Confused

The deck also caught my attention when published on Morphling.de
At first some of the choices seemed really weird, but after trying the deck against some of the standard archetypes most of them started explaining themselves.

Quote
This deck looks ridiculously like this one I made waaaay back in April:


Yeah I'm pretty sure a lot of people have been toying around with decks like this, immediatly after the release of Infestation it was tried is various Void Builds.

When seeying this deck I also immediatly had to think of standstill, the synergy with the rest of the deck has to be recognized and, depending on the metagame, this card could deserve a place in the deck.

Old-Extended Benzo always fed Krovikan Horror and Squee's to the Infestation, and a single Horror seems like a good option for this deck too. It makes a nice entomb and intuition (with 2 squee's obv.) target. Having acces to this intuition option makes it easier to make a token every turn. Together with Bazaar the Horror also still has 7 other creatures to back him up, and make him a pseudo-squee. Not to mention the Horror offers another kill conditions with his ability and the high number of infestation tokens. At 3B is stays castable.

The mana-base already has been adressed by more people, and I think a good way to fix it is to include some painlands (rivers) instead of the fetches. This ups the actual count of coloured mana producing lands, and doesnt leave you too vulnerable to stifles. It does make you more vulnerable to Blood Moon though.

The Mystical Tutor seems like a very weird choise to me, a vampiric tutor does so much more in this deck. The only advantage mystical has it it's colour which makes it FoW fodder.

After playing against several decks I started wondering if the Voids really were neccesairry, they often were stuck in my hand, and also often turned into win-more cards. While they are great in some matchups they are near-dead in others. I don't want to dismiss them yet, but I'm not sure if they really should be seen as core-cards.

Quote
As for Circular Logic, there's so much graveyard hate running around now that this card seems like a fine choice.


Huh?
I hope you mean that they are great to counter the hate, otherwise you really got me confused here  :shock:

Quote
I'm not a big fan of the Circular Logics. They are really only effective once your graveyard is fat and setup, and with an active discard piece on the board. By that time, it should be just about game because you are setup and doing what you need to do. Would perhaps the freebie Misdirection be a better choice?


At 2U, they are probably easier to cast for this deck than UU spells would be, but is the madness that makes them worth playing, as soon as turn 2 they can become useful counters, and later in the game, they are just hard-counters. The deck is pretty light on blue cards, so misdirection doesn't really seem to belong.

Quote
Without the logics does the deck really even need Bazaar? I'm looking at it and there are only 7 cards you really want to pitch to it, and with the intuitions/entombs, they will usually end up where you want them initially anyways. Dragon uses bazaar more as a combo piece than a draw engine. Madness uses it as a draw engine, but then, most of that deck is pitchable to it. This deck there is so few to pitch, it doesn't seem like a very effective draw engine. Especially when there are better uses for the squees, namely Zombie Infestation.


Sometimes I also ran short on card you want to pitch, this made me consider Deep Analysis, but the high normal casting cost still makes me a little skeptical about the card, it does deserve some testing though.

Quote
I'm also not sure if the 3/3 ratio between infestations and ghouls is the right one. Testing the 4th infestation seems obligatory.


Exactly my though, Infestation proved to be a bullet against prison and aggro decks, well basicly against any non combo deck. And Ghoul is also an amazing card which probably would be better as a 4 of, too bad the deck is so tight.

Koen
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« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2004, 06:47:12 pm »

I think Turbulent Dreams looks pretty damn good in this deck. If a Void resolves and you get to bounce maybe 4 of your opponents permanents (for 3UU + 2 squee, 2 ghoul i.e.) it should seal the deal.

They can take care of troublesome enchantments/artifacts and strengthen your gameplan of slowing the game down to a grinding halt.

I think it looks interesting. Circular Logic fit in nicely too. An active Bazaar for just 1 or 2 turns, will (as already mentioned) practically make them hard counters.
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« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2004, 07:34:03 pm »

If he loses his squee... it just seems like this deck is so screwed. Sure a void can slow down everyone.. or a infestation can crap out 2 2/2s... or the horros can do their thing. But, isn't this deck too dependent on the squee man?
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« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2004, 08:42:01 pm »

Yes, my point on Logics is that there are quite a few cards which see play in the current metagame -- such as Tormod's Crypt -- which attack the graveyard. As this deck is very much based on its graveyard, having those Logics to protect it makes sense. The build of the deck ensures that there will almost always be a large number of cards in the yard, and with so few blue sources, they make more sense than Mana Drain.
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« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2004, 01:01:34 am »

Quote
a single Horror...makes a nice entomb and intuition (with 2 squee's obv.) target.

Actually, Horror makes a terrible Entomb target, because the Entomb will resolve itself directly above the Horror, trapping it.
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« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2004, 05:52:02 am »

Quote
Actually, Horror makes a terrible Entomb target, because the Entomb will resolve itself directly above the Horror, trapping it.


Yeah thats true, I tried the horror for some time, but never entombed for it yet, so this didn't occur to me yet  Embarassed

I still think Horror warrants a spot though.

Quote
If he loses his squee... it just seems like this deck is so screwed. Sure a void can slow down everyone.. or a infestation can crap out 2 2/2s... or the horros can do their thing. But, isn't this deck too dependent on the squee man?


But when you get an active bazaar with squee's you're opponent only will have little time to deal your squee's, or you will be overwhelming them with counters, and stifles can take care of crypts that were already dropped.

Koen
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