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Author Topic: [Deck] Charbelcher Combo 2004  (Read 42270 times)
bebe
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« Reply #90 on: March 09, 2004, 10:28:36 pm »

Mana Cylix is a great idea but I never knew the tech until now. That said, I get a few uses out of the Gemstone before its used up and the land is useful as I sometimes use it to go off. I actually started my build in a vacuum and only recently became aware of Lucienspirit and Frimble's work on the deck. Their builds have influenced the development of this arch type quite a bit. The Dulmen decks are just more tech to absorb. I still believe that my meta requires three Duress main decked ( learnt the hard way) and I also use a single copy of Transmute Artifact as a pseudo tutor with Welder. Mons knows how I always have to put my own spin on things. Overall though this deck is going to break into the top tier of Type 1. You will need to know how to beat it. I like Duress as I've had my Grants countered, I've been Mind Twisted turn three and I've had three Rods played on me in one tournament. The deck thankfully is beatable ( unfortunately I had to be the victim last outing) and that is a good thing as we do not want the return of combo winter.
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« Reply #91 on: March 09, 2004, 10:35:14 pm »

This thread sure has exploded the last few days.........

My thoughts on chrome mox......

If you look at the number of cards in the belcher build that can produce mana with a 0 cc input (ie. lands, land grant, mox's, lotus) and if you exclude lion's eye and chrome mox you only have 18 sources of mana that can "start" a hand. Out of those 18 cards only 12 will lead to a mana source that can be tappped for mana on turn 2.  The #1 reason I've had to mulligan with this deck is because I had no mana or only a loan spirit guide to  "start" my hand (#2 is getting color screwed). Chrome Mox is probably the worst of these 0 cc mana producers, but, its vital because the deck really doesn't have much solid 0 cc starters to begin with.

What make chrome mox not so bad....... you don't really lose card advantage to it if you use it to cast a draw 7. I also find myself putting spirit guide under it allot. Think of it as drawing an extra spirit guide your next turn. Land grant makes a great chrome mox target. You only need 2 of the grants in the deck at most anyway. Another advantage is that you don't HAVE to put anything under chrome mox. You could just put it out there to sac to tinker, weld something into play, or up your storm count for the tendrils kill. One more advantage, although limited, is you sometimes have a choice in what color chrome mox will produce. I've put yagmoth's will under chrome mox because I needed black mana to go off. Out of all the cards I would cut from this deck chrome mox is definately not one of them.  

My thoughts on channel......

That card is SOOOOOOoooo broken in this deck.
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Mathman07
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« Reply #92 on: March 10, 2004, 12:26:27 am »

@carlosb

I know that Channel is restricted.  This deck is (or at least should be) the reason why.

@bebe

Quote
I like Duress as I've had my Grants countered, I've been Mind Twisted turn three and I've had three Rods played on me in one tournament


Duress doesn't help you resolve Land Grant unless you have black mana sources to cast it first.  In this case it doesn't matter as much whether grant gets countered (unless you are using lotus/petal) because you still have mana to go off with.

As for the Mind twist, which deck were you playing against.  If you let control survive until turn 3, you have probably lost.

Null Rod is a powerful hoser, but Oxidize handles it better than Duress.

Of course, I don't know your metagame, so if Duress works for you then that is fine.

@Lucentspirit

I, too, like Chrome Mox.  However, sometimes you just get screwed with one card of each color in your starting hand + chrome mox as your mana source.

Channel, when combined with Chromatic Sphere and Mana Cylix lets you go off with Draw 7's.  I haven't lost yet after resolving a Channel.
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frimble
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« Reply #93 on: March 10, 2004, 07:58:43 am »

Quote from: Mathman07
I, too, like Chrome Mox.  However, sometimes you just get screwed with one card of each color in your starting hand + chrome mox as your mana source.


True, I have had this problem on occasion, too.  What would you rather have the Chrome Mox to be in that hand to let you keep it? (Other than a dual land, that is.)  I haven't been able to come up with anything.  I was going to drop the C Mox for a 3rd Brainstorm, but that still won't help this opening hand.
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bebe
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« Reply #94 on: March 10, 2004, 09:17:07 am »

Quote

As for the Mind twist, which deck were you playing against. If you let control survive until turn 3, you have probably lost.

Null Rod is a powerful hoser, but Oxidize handles it better than Duress


To begin with Oxidize is in the sideboard and once a deck with the Rod is out you will not get to wish for it without a Duress or two. Yes, i was twisted playing control and never recovered. A turn slow, I know but you do not always go off turn two.

I have been stuck with Sol Ring/Chromatic Sphere openings, Petal/Mox openings etc. where a land is important. If I have the Grant I usually will not mull but against control it can be a problem.

I( know the Dulkmen philosophy. Rely on pure speed. But look at Dragon. It uses either counters or disruption to protect itself. I do not advocate playing any combo build without some disruption and as good as Welders are, I feel th4e deck needs a bit more.  I'm not analysing this theoretically. I've played the deck at large venues.

As to our meta - well. Take a look at the tournament section for the Ontario meta. Shockwave, Razor, Myself and a few other tmders did not top eight. The results are a bit misleading as Fish, control, Slaver, O. Stompy, Madness and landstill  were all played but knocked eaqch other out allowing aggro decks like Sligh ( lets exclude FCG here) and some rogue tech to finish better. I managed to hit Fish and Trinisphere decks early to end my day. Too much hate.
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« Reply #95 on: March 10, 2004, 10:15:48 am »

@frimble

I couldn't find anything that was better than Chrome Mox.  It stays.

@bebe

Against control, I find that if you havent resolved either welder or belcher by turn 3 then you lose.

Sol Ring / Chromatic sphere requires mana to begin.  You won't get this mana until AFTER you grant.  But I see your point.

Oxidize is a great SB option against Null Rod.

Dragon should not be compared to this deck.  Long.dec should.  Long did use disruption, and so can you.
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carlossb
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« Reply #96 on: March 10, 2004, 12:10:54 pm »

Quote
I know that Channel is restricted. This deck is (or at least should be) the reason why.

Sorry Mathman07, I didn´t understand you Rolling Eyes


Quote
Dragon should not be compared to this deck. Long.dec should. Long did use disruption, and so can you.


I think this deck cannot compare to Long, as (old) Long was a different and innovative deck to play. With it you played every game around Yawgmoth´s will.
Belcher is also very different to play compared to old combo decks, as it can´t be compared to a draw-7 or wish-long, or tps. It´s a similar idea to 'get as fast as you can 7-8 mana (If you can´t do it, mulligan more agresively).

Quote
I couldn't find anything that was better than Chrome Mox.


In many many games, I cast Land Grant 2 or 3 times, and sometimes I don´t played any lands but Tolarian Academy, or the Workshop in the sideboard, via Living Wish.
My question is:
Is it possible to run a Mox Diamond?
(it seems funny to run a Mox Diamond in a deck with 2 lands, I know. It´s only a suggestion)

Sometimes I feel that the deck needs 1-2 blue sources Confused


It´s fantastic to discover/develop new deck ideas... Razz
(Congrats to everybody who participates in this thread)
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Jhaggs
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« Reply #97 on: March 10, 2004, 01:07:45 pm »

Quote from: bebe

I( know the Dulkmen philosophy. Rely on pure speed. But look at Dragon. It uses either counters or disruption to protect itself. I do not advocate playing any combo build without some disruption and as good as Welders are, I feel th4e deck needs a bit more.  I'm not analysing this theoretically. I've played the deck at large venues.


Well said.  If/When this deck breaks into the "top tier" and people really start playing this at tournaments it will eventually need some sort of disruption mechanic.  I think that the sheer speed route is effective due in large part of this archtype's newbie status.  Once people start accounting for this combo deck, the sheer speed balls to the wall strategy won't work in my opinion because players will be looking for it.  Further, I think the build does allow for some type of flexiblity.  Amazingly, you can MD disruption and still consistently explode right out of the gate.  Knowing this, why not just run the disruption?  I think it is important  for this deck to be able to address threats that would otherwise completely shutout any chances of winning.  Taking the chance of an auto-loss due to a threat isn't worth it espically when this deck does have some inherent flexiblity.
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« Reply #98 on: March 10, 2004, 01:25:46 pm »

Quote from: Jhaggs
I think that the sheer speed route is effective due in large part of this archtype's newbie status. Once people start accounting for this combo deck, the sheer speed balls to the wall strategy won't work in my opinion because players will be looking for it.

And they are going to do exactly what? Only Workshop decks have the mana for a 1st turn Trinisphere (or Chalice for enough), and they play it already anyway. Only U-based control decks have the Force of Will, and they play it already anyway. Duress does not stop this deck unless you go first and snatch their only mana source, which will not happen because the Belcher player should not have kept an opening hand with only one mana.

The only thing I see coming at the moment is that players will start mulliganing for Forces/3Spheres more aggressively (which a good player will do after the first game anyway), and people playing more Null Rods, which are the only real problem if encountered in higher numbers.

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« Reply #99 on: March 10, 2004, 01:56:40 pm »

Quote
The only thing I see coming at the moment is that players will start mulliganing for Forces/3Spheres more aggressively (which a good player will do after the first game anyway), and people playing more Null Rods, which are the only real problem if encountered in higher numbers.


yes, you´re right.

Nothing is new here, Jhaggs, when playing a combo deck, the opponent will 'always' mulligan to a hand with Force of Will. It has been so for many years.

The Null Rods came only post-sideboard in most cases, and a lot of decks simply cannot sideboard them (Slavery...)

The duresses question has been answered a few post ago by Mon

Quote
The only slots used for disruption should be the 3 Welder Slots and the 2 Living Wish slots. A way to remove Atifacts is mandatory because of Null Rod and Matrix, IMO, so Wish can't turn into Swarms or Duress.
As for Welders, they allow you to disrupt control as well as Stax (once they've got any artifact in their yard, they've got a problem), which can't be said for Swarms. They also can act as combo-parts in themselves even if no Belcher was countered (generating mana or recurring a Belcher discarded to Wheel or LED).
Duress is simply worse than both cards.
In a metagame without any Stax I might probably play Swarms over Welders, as they also protect my Land Grants and Draw7s. In a mixed meta, Welder has my vote.


However, it´s a matter of personal preference in building your version of a deck.

I personaly think that with this deck, the only form of 'protection' would be Force of Will (that is, a 0 cc counterspell), but by the moment, speed seems enough (and the deck with the current colour configuration doesn´t admit them).
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Jhaggs
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« Reply #100 on: March 10, 2004, 01:59:39 pm »

Dozer,

   You cited a great example with the more agressive style in mulliganing hands into needed combo hate.  Sure good players should pick up on this after games 1 but in my tournament experiences many players improperly mull.  But if this deck is discussed more prevelantly, these players will eventually pickup on how to correctly prepare for this matchup.

In addition to this, I do think that existing decks can make upgrades in order to combat losing extremely early.  Take for example both styles of slavery (workshop/control).  To the best of my knowledge, these decks aren't MD chalice.  However, if combo starts running rampant it is logical to conclude that this could be a warranted new addition.  I think both decks could sucessfully use the chalice.  Chalice of the void is a great tempo killer for combo decks like Long and like Belcher.  Since the decline of long, I think that players have been shying away from its use.  However, if combo roared back, MD chalice to cast it for 1 could be seen again.
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BreathWeapon
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« Reply #101 on: March 10, 2004, 02:52:32 pm »

@Jhaggs,

Your above post seems a little convoluded. Are you trying to say that Workshop Slaver doesn't use 4 MD CotV? I haven't seen a list yet that didn't MD 4 Chalice.
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Jhaggs
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« Reply #102 on: March 10, 2004, 04:10:26 pm »

Quote from: BreathWeapon
@Jhaggs,

Your above post seems a little convoluded. Are you trying to say that Workshop Slaver doesn't use 4 MD CotV? I haven't seen a list yet that didn't MD 4 Chalice.


Blah.....Thanks for catching that Breathweapon.  Brain Fart.  However, my point still remains the same.  Basically what I am saying is that if this style of combo comes back into the meta (which I think it can), decks that can run chalice but aren't may decide to MD them.  Another example of such a deck besides control slavery is Razor's Oshawa Stompy:

http://zherbus.proboards19.com/index.cgi?board=tourny&action=display&num=1072478309

This is a type of build that can get a chalice set at 1 relatively easily on turn 1.  It can pack rootmaze and chalice if needed.
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BreathWeapon
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« Reply #103 on: March 10, 2004, 08:39:25 pm »

No problem,

Speaking of Root Maze, how does Belcher operate under one dropped first turn? Has anybody put any testing into it? Should we consider it a scoop card, or is it only a major annoyance?
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anyhcanyhc
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« Reply #104 on: March 10, 2004, 11:01:49 pm »

What up Clyde, this deck is nuts, it having kicked my ass all over the place.
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Mathman07
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« Reply #105 on: March 11, 2004, 01:28:12 am »

To my knowledge, only Oshawa Stompy plays root maze.  Maze alone just slows you down, but you are in no danger of losing outright.  Their only hope is Root Maze followed by Null Rod or Naturalize.  All Root Maze does is slow you down by 2 turns (mana + belcher each CITP tapped).  Also, if you are on the play you can just play all of your mana and stuff on turn one and win after that.  In this case Root Maze doesn't affect you at all.  Only if you lose the die roll is Root Maze a problem.  Root Maze is a major annoyance, NOT a scoop card.
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« Reply #106 on: March 11, 2004, 06:37:12 am »

Not to mention that it also slows your opponent down a little, as it is symmetrical. Also, ESG's are gold against Root Maze, as well as Tinder Walls (which do not come into play tapped). Answering a first turn Root Maze with Tinder Wall off ESG plus any other mana source (wich will come into play tapped, though) usually sets you up for a lot of second turn action and can enable a third turn kill.
Root Maze slows Belcher down, but without anything following up, as Mathman07 rightly says, Root Maze decks will lose anyway.

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Machinus
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« Reply #107 on: March 11, 2004, 07:20:15 am »

Duress seems really unnecessary. In drawseven, there is quite a lot of blue, so countering and disruption are available to take some limited measure of control over the game. However, belcher's set of conditions for winning are, as has been stated before, generate seven mana, instead of play nine spells. One of the reasons duress worked in long was because long was focused on storm and HAD to get rid of stifle. Belcher doesnt really give a crap about stifle, oxidize, abeyance, or whatever, because there are four belchers and welders, and you will just tap your artifact next turn to kill them. Long/Draw can't afford to do that, because its spell stack wont be around next turn. Belcher doesn't need the disruption because it has recursion, and much disruption in other, less straightforward ways. Its speed is a major factor, forcing the opponent to aggressively mulligan. Then, if they get that accomplished reasonably well, belcher can twister their hand away or xantid them post SB. If they counter or kill your belcher, well you will weld it back.

Brainstorm also can be dangerous. I would say three brainstorms should be the most you put in the deck. If you start out strongly, and then BS is your last draw effect, if you can't win right then or have a shuffle effect, you are dead in the water. There are no fetchlands to smooth things out, so you have to have a shuffle effect as part of a spell.

Tendrils maindeck is a good idea, certainly.


1x Bayou
1x Tropical Island
4x Land Grant
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Pearl
1x Chrome Mox
1x Lion's Eye Diamond
1x Black Lotus
1x Lotus Petal
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Sol Ring
1x Grim Monolith
1x Channel
4x Dark Ritual
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Tinder Wall
4x Chromatic Sphere
3x Goblin Welder
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Tinker
1x Spoils of The Vault
3x Brainstorm
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk
1x Timetwister
1x Windfall
1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Memory Jar
1x Necropotence
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Tendrils of Agony
4x Goblin Charbelcher


The mystical, spoils, or third brainstorm could potentially become wishes. If burning wish found its way to the maindeck, consult could be used. This manabase is really difficult, but I don't think cylix is efficient. Living wish for academy is a much better idea.
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« Reply #108 on: March 11, 2004, 10:04:00 am »

More blue cards (3rd Brainstorm, and Mystical Tutor) could be a problem, as the deck has too little blue sources; sometimes I had problems with that.
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Jhaggs
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« Reply #109 on: March 11, 2004, 11:26:28 am »

Quote from: Mathman07
To my knowledge, only Oshawa Stompy plays root maze.  Maze alone just slows you down, but you are in no danger of losing outright.  Their only hope is Root Maze followed by Null Rod or Naturalize.  All Root Maze does is slow you down by 2 turns (mana + belcher each CITP tapped).  Also, if you are on the play you can just play all of your mana and stuff on turn one and win after that.  In this case Root Maze doesn't affect you at all.  Only if you lose the die roll is Root Maze a problem.  Root Maze is a major annoyance, NOT a scoop card.


My point was that Chalice could be maindecked in addition to rootmaze.  Oshawa and Control Slaver are two examples of decks that could decide to MD additional combo hate.  Having multiple stall cards could really hurt any combo deck, which is why I feel that if Charbelcher starts popping up everywhere chalice may comeback for other builds.  Root maze is an annoyance but maze followed by chalice at 1 a null rod is much more formittable.  At some point charbelcher is going to have to run some sort of protection (i.e. Duress/Swarm/whatever).
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« Reply #110 on: March 11, 2004, 11:37:22 am »

Jhaggs wrote:
Quote
Having multiple stall cards could really hurt any combo deck, which is why I feel that if Charbelcher starts popping up everywhere chalice may comeback for other builds.


You´re right. When people started to realize that Long was a combo-machine, we saw Chalices popping out of nowhere into almost every deck or sideboard to deal with the power of Long.
Then Long started to maindeck artifact hate (like Hurkyl´s and Chain of Vapour).
After the restrictions, Chalices where put into the sideboard, and as weeks passed without any combo deck in the top8 lists of tourneys, people started to don´t fear combo decks.

But now...
...now once again it seems that combo decks (in the form of the Smmenen Draw-7 deck and a few TPS decks, and now with the Belcher deck) are becoming tier-1 decks, so we´ll see again lots of hate...
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« Reply #111 on: March 12, 2004, 05:42:24 am »

I think duress works well against counterspell style control decks. However, I think its use in a belcher build is limited when it comes to dealing with other kinds of belcher hate.
     Decks like stax will either go first and prevent belcher from casting anything (including duress) or Belcher will go first and most likely be able to drop a belcher on the table or maybe even flat out win. In any case duress won't help much against staxx. It will either slow you down giving the staxx player more time to take board control or staxx will take board control before you even have a chance to use duress in which case there is probably nothing that would have worked anyway. Also keep in mind you can't duress away a mishra's workshop and the stax player is likey to have more than 1 lockdown component (wire, sphere, 3sphere) in hand.
     If you already have 2 mox on the board would you really worry about a chalice for 0?
    Another problem with duress is that against decks that pack null rod duress is only valuble on turn 1. As soon as they can drop a null rod on the board they will. After that, the duress in your deck serves no purpose. I think if null rods start to run rampant and you are going second vs. a null rod deck, duress may be an option, but, I personally would side it out while going first.
     With the exception of counterspells and posssibly ESG/root maze/null rod any kind of belcher hate that would allow you to play duress would also allow you to just go off.
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« Reply #112 on: March 12, 2004, 09:22:57 am »

Quote from: Machinus
The mystical, spoils, or third brainstorm could potentially become wishes. If burning wish found its way to the maindeck, consult could be used.

Why is Demonic Consultation dependent on Burning Wish? I suppose that you want to be able to retrieve removed Draw-7s, but why? If you go for Belcher, you are likely not to need another Draw-7. If you go for any other card, who cares if you remove one of your Draw-7s, because the card you are going for will propel you forward anyway. And as Demonic Consultation is clearly at the same level as Spoils, which you play, I don't see a reason not to play Consultation too:

Both Consultation and Spoils of the Vault are doubling as a Demonic for Belcher and can, in case you REALLY need it, also go for other cards. I have seen Consultation for Necro in a test game once. It's a risky proposition, but it works better than Brainstorms. As you correctly say, Brainstorms are prone to fizzle your development, so in my view two tutors are better than below-average card drawers (which the Brainstorms are in this deck).

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« Reply #113 on: March 12, 2004, 09:59:35 am »

@ Dozer: I use neither Consultation nor Spoils.  

Spoils of the Vault - I just don't like the idea that a small percentage of the time it is a suicide card.  One black to unknowingly kill yourself.  This is a deck designed to play the statistical odds.  I don't like any card that lowers those odds.   Sure, it will work wonders also. Which is why the replacement for it must also be strong, but without the potential drawback.  May I suggest Mystical tutor?  It gets Tinker for the win. It gets Ancestral/Wheel/Twister for the card drawing. It gets Dark Rit for the extra mana.  With the Chromatic Spheres in the dek theMystical Tutor's drawback is lessened.

Demonic Consultation - I removed this for the 2nd Welder main deck.  I have fewer quams with Consultation than Spoils.  I still have not found room for it again.
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« Reply #114 on: March 12, 2004, 02:56:54 pm »

If this deck is going to support any form of Disruption, it should be FoW. Its the only card that protects against the major problems of Prison, and thus the only card that should be considered IMO.
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« Reply #115 on: March 12, 2004, 05:03:52 pm »

I'm inclined to agree with breathweapon, FoW is the only card capable of protecting belcher the way it needs to be protected. Unfortunately I don't think there is enough blue present in the deck to support it.


@ Frimble

Don't forget, mystical tutor gets channel too!
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« Reply #116 on: March 12, 2004, 06:42:47 pm »

Well,

4 FOW
4 Brainstorm
1 Timewalk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Timetwister
1 Windfall
1 Tinker

Granted the Brainstorm count is a little high for the deck, but thats 14 for FOW and Mind's Desire is also a thought. I think it can be done.
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« Reply #117 on: March 12, 2004, 07:31:17 pm »

I never thought time walk really worked all that well in belcher. I dropped it pretty early on when playtesting. (I think I may have talked about  this in another thread.) You don't gain a whole lot in belcher by having a chance to drop "another" land. Also, Time walk may replace itself by giving you a second draw step but so many of your mana sources are 1 time use only. The resources needed to cast time walk may very well cost you card advantage.
   Brainstorm is my least favorite draw spell in the deck. It can really help you smooth out a bad draw but, once again it takes resources to cast you may not get back. It also adds little to the overall kill mechanics of the deck. I only run 2 in my build.
    Windfall is a card I'm still up in the air about. Right now I don't feel that it pulls it's weight enough to be in the build. It is however blue and if you were to run FoW it would probably give it enough merit to make the deck list.

So, that makes

4 FoW
1 Ancestral
2 Brainstorm
1 Timetwister
1 Mystical tutor
1 Tinker
1 Windfall (maybe)

11 blue cards total that I would run

I personally don't feel that's enough to merit FoW in the deck, but, it isn't completely out of the question. I think if someone were to try and go the FoW route they might want to experiment with putting a second Tropical Island in the deck along with perhaps running a card like diminishing returns like Twister.dec.
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BreathWeapon
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« Reply #118 on: March 13, 2004, 01:04:56 am »

I think we have to accept that in order to run FoW that we will have to include "Fluff" Blue Cards. Besides, you'll probably be pitching that extra Brainstorm, Time Walk and Windfall anyway to FoW. Chain of Vapor and Hurkyl's Recall come to mind ... perhaps they would be the best inclusions to support FoW.

Ofcourse, I still insist on playing with Yawgmoth's Bargain and Mind's Desire in this deck ... so take my comments with a grain of salt. I have too many pet projects to playtest Belcher extensively, but I am feeling spunky so i'd try this:

Setting Up (10)
4xForce of Will
4xBrainstorm
1xTime Walk
1xAncestral Recall

Draw 7's (5)
1xMemory Jar
1xTinker
1xTimetwister
1xWindfall
1xWheel of Fortune

Win Nows (4)
1xMind's Desire
1xYawgmoth's Bargain
1xNecropotence
1xYawgmoth's Will

Tutors (4)
1xDemonic Tutor
1xVampiric Tutor
1xDemonic Consultation
1xMystical Tutor

PWNz (4)
4xGoblin Charbelcher

Juice (33)
4xLand Grant
1xTropical Island
1xBayou
1xTaiga
1xSol Ring
1xBlack Lotus
1xLotus Petal
1xMox Emerald
1xMox Saphire
1xMox Pearl
1xMox Ruby
1xMox Jet
1xChrome Mox
1xLion's Eye Diamond
1xGrim Monolith
1xMana Vault
1xMana Crypt
4xDark Ritual
4xElvish Spirit Guide
1xChannel
4xChromatic Sphere

I'm not sure if its any better than Twister.dec, but I bet it would be a good laugh all in all. Let me know how bad it is Rolling Eyes
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Dozer
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« Reply #119 on: March 15, 2004, 05:48:59 am »

Quote from: frimble
@ Dozer: I use neither Consultation nor Spoils.  

May I suggest Mystical tutor?

You may. Wink
Your arguments have shown me that Mystical Tutor has a lot of merits that I overlooked, like going for Tinker, which I completely forgot about.
My post, btw, referred to Machinus' build, who has Spoils and Mystical - which is a somewhat funny combination, regardless of which angle you regard it from.
The Mystical, however, appears to be the more versatile search, as it can get Channel, too, as Lucentspirit kindly pointed out. Spoils will almost never go for a restricted card, which is Mystical's prime. I also agree that the Drawback is easier to handle with Chromatic Spheres and Brainstorms (of which I still think 2 is the right number) in the deck.

Still, you say:
Quote
Demonic Consultation - I removed this for the 2nd Welder main deck.

The Dümen decks had 3 Welders main and sported both Consultation and Spoils. I can see Spoils being replaced by Mystical, even though blue mana is harder to find and the speed-setback from the Mystical-Drawback needs to be tested. I tried to find your decklist in the thread, but found only Lucentspirit's, so I can only assume you are playing 2 Mana Cylix/ 1 Welder instead of 3 Welders. Is this correct? If so, would not Demonic Consultation also be able to act as a mana fixer by looking for a mana source (or a Chromatic Sphere), and be more versatile than Mana Cylix?
If my assumption is wrong, please feel free to correct me.

----

The Force of Will-debate I have also read with great interest. I still am not convinced about the necessity of any disruption, but I would prefer FoW over Duress myself any given time, the reason being that FoW is by far less time-consuming than Duress.
I want to point out that if you don't have enough good blue cards to support 4 FoW, you might  want to try 3 FoW instead of stuffing subpar cards into a deck that does not need it. 4 FoW need about 14-16 blue cards to work, and 14 is already a little low in my experience. So, 3 FoW should easily come online with about 11-13 blue cards, which Lucentspirit's configuration can support (including Windfall, which is a Pseudo-Draw-7 most of the time).

3 FoW
1 Ancestral
2 Brainstorm
1 Timetwister
1 Mystical
1 Tinker
1 Windfall

That is ten cards, maybe a little on the low side, but still a functional amount. I like this way better than diluting the deck with Brainstorms and Time Walk, on which I completely agree with Luc, but which would be the next card to add if ten card for 3 FoW turns out to be too low.

Having only 3 FoW decreases your chances of drawing them, I know. But as you can either tutor for it before going off, or draw it in a Draw-7, or even rip it off the top with Chromatic Sphere, having "only" 3 appears better to me than having 4 and a deck that is not working properly as it should.

Dozer
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