Onean Decree

[defector]

Agreed with Orlove.  White needs to control proactively, I just can't handle it going any other route.  
defector

[Matt]

The challenge is quite simply, IF White were to get a limited counterspell HOW would it achieve the goal of stopping the spell from working.

IF white were to get a limited counterspell IT WOULD be [card]Illumination[/card]. Or possibly [card]Cho-Mannos Blessing[/card]/[card]Shelter[/card]. THAT is indirect countering - "countering-without-countering". Not your "dissipate" effect, which is totally a direct counter, which is something of a specialty, the same way that nonblack colors just do not get hand destruction.

[dandan]

Mindbomb, Amnesia, Matt?

Proactive?

Look at my alternative 1. That tells you in advance what the rules are, if you don't play by the rules, your spell might not be allowed. Isn't that exactly what you were after, Defector?

Note that I lowered the CC as it is far far less powerful without the element of surprise and I think the world can live with the Skull of Orm combo (also Replenish for that matter).

[Matt]

Resorting to design mistakes from 1995 will not get you anywhere.

[Jacob Orlove]

Resorting to design mistakes from 1995 will not get you anywhere.

Blue also had direct damage back then. So let's make some more now!

Or not. White counters just don't work. No matter how convoluted you make the card, if it still counters a spell, it's not white.

[dandan]

First I think that Mind Bomb, Amnesia and the Blue Guerrila Tactics were all fine, balanced cards. I have no problems with allied colours getting weak bleeds of a cards abilities. Even Desert Twister and its funky ally Tornado don't offend me.

It is clear that if you define a counterspell as being Blue then I cannot make a White counterspell. My problem is with that definition.

Is there a power level or gameplay problem with what I have suggested? I doubt it.

Quite simply there is only one way to counter any spell, denying that method to White is an option seems to be Jacob's and Matt's opinion, mine is clearly different. Is there any way out of this. To be honest I doubt it. I have suggested proactive versions but they still seem Blue to you.

Can we have an "Apart from that, what did you think of the play, Mrs. Lincoln?" approach to the card, ignoring the colour pie and opinions arising from it?

[Matt]

Is there a power level or gameplay problem with what I have suggested? I doubt it.

You could make:

8BBB
Instant
Destroy target enchantment.

and it wouldn't have a power level problem, but that doesn't mean it should be made.

Your card does have a gameplay issue though - it's a real pain in the ass to keep track of what mana you used to pay a spell, especially with dual lands. Obviously it doesn't matter with white spells, but if I tap a Tundra, a City of Brass, and an Island to pay for Repulse, you usually never, ever bother to wonder what colors of mana I'm making. And if you ask me "what colors are you tapping for?" then your element of surprise is basically lost. And you can't keep asking just to confuse me about whether you have this card or not, because that slows the game down tremendously.

Resource management is for accountants. Magic is meant to be played.



I have to ask, what sort of problems are making you think white needs a counterspell? Are you worried about Mind Twist, or are you tired of Upheaval, or what? If you're trying to protect your creatures, white has TONS of protection abilities. If you're trying to stop combo, well, white has that new Arcane Lab as well as other rule-making cards. The rule-making aspect of white can also be extended to cover things like Twist (Ivory Mask, True Believer) or Upheaval (nothing yet but you could make a card to stop this). If you want them all, well, tough luck, no color gets to do everything.

[Ocifer]

I have to ask, what sort of problems are making you think white needs a counterspell? .......
If you want them all, well, tough luck, no color gets to do everything.

Except blue apparently..?

[Matt]

Blue doesn't get everything. Lately, blue has been losing mechanics left and right to other colors. Flying is now as much white as blue, and the best flyers are also white. Red got Misdirection and Prodigal Sorceror, and counterspells are more and more likely to be soft counters.

[Aniodia]

Why not just re-word it to "Counter target non-white spell unless it's controller pays an additional W"? It becomes more like a white [card]Mana Leak[/card] then. Heck, you could make them pay WW if it floats yer boat, just to make sure they're playing white. I saw where you were coming from with the 'unless white mana etc...', but like someone said, book-keeping on whether someone used white mana to pay for a spell is a pain in the ass, so just restricting the counter to non-white spells keeps in with the whole flavor of 'White is good' as well as 'White taxes the hell outta you'.

Regardless, I think this is a great idea. Hell, I want to see Wizards print this. That way, maybe there would be a few more white-based decks in T1...

[skecreatoR]

"unless that player pays W, or 5."

Then it would be a lot more balanced, not considering the colorpie. It is just too darn good without the possibility to avoid countering unless you are playing white.

[Matt]

Why not just re-word it to "Counter target non-white spell unless it's controller pays an additional W"?

Because white shouldn't have Mana Leak either!

[dandan]

Changed it to 'target non-White spell' but added the option of 3 colourless mana to balance that out. It is now undoubtedly a 'soft' counter.

I can see that we will not ever have a consensus on the position of countering in the colour pie but this is neither unbalancing nor that far removed from the current colour pie (Matt has pointed out White effects that act as counters).

I strongly dislike the idea that I am suggesting this card because I have a pet White deck that needs it. Not true. I am suggesting it because I think it is a step in the right direction for White.

Because of the objections I have been trying to explore other 'non-countering' countering methods a la Matt's beloved Illumination. This one owes a lot to Meddling Mage (I know he is Blue too), Alternative 3 and Null Chamber:

Alternative 4
Onean Decree
WW1
Enchantment
When this comes into play, remove target non-White spell from the stack and return it to its owner's hand unless its controller pays an additional W or 3. If the spell is returned in this way, spells with same name as the spell targetted by Onean Decree cannot be played.
THIS can be played as an instant

I greatly prefer the current version as it is far far simpler although the above version is 'Whiter'

[stijndon]

That's a great Idea! Instant Null Chamber!

Onean Decree
2WW
Enchantment
You can play Onean Decree anytime that you could play an instant.
When Onean Decree comes into play, counter target spell. Counter all spells with the same name as that card.
As long as Onean Decree is in play, cards named Onean Decree can't be played.

The idea is that you get to counter something, and all of it's twins, but you only get to do it once, since this card barrs any name-sharing spells from getting played.

Null Chamber with a good twist. At first I had the last sentence as "Onean Decree can't be played," inspired by the wording of Meddling Mage "The Named Spell Can't be Played." But that would so sauvagesque confuse all n00bs, that I thought the wording as written above would be better.

Is this a good idea? It's a white counter, but a good one, and I would swear that it's in flavour for white.

[dandan]

My version is a 'soft' counter which was an attempt to pamder to the whims of the masses (well, Matt and Jacob anyway).  Your version is also good and is also rather White. It is probably better than my version and is almost good enough to see play in Blue if it were that colour. I feel a backlash coming.

I kind of like White not being able to counter White stuff as it mirrors the Black inability (somewhat diluted these days) to kill Black creatures.

Of course someone might point out that White is already unable to counter White spells.....

[Aniodia]

But dandan, White is already unable to counter White spells...  
[/obligatory whine]

Not bad, but there should be some agreement on which version to use. I like the effect of stijndon's, but with Alt. 4's CC, but that's just me, and I like broken white things . Otherwise, I think it could only be better if the enchantress mechanic was in white instead of green, but that's a whole other debate.

[Matt]

I think it could only be better if the enchantress mechanic was in white instead of green, but that's a whole other debate.

I TOTALLY agree, and I wonder why Wizards don't do this, since green is supposed to be the "truth" color - anti-artifice, anti-trickery...anti-enchantment.

[stijndon]

So how about the instant Null Chamber? It's a white counter, but quite flavourfull. Perhaps it could be made so that the spell gets put back on the stack when the Decree is destroyed.

And then make it an enchant world, so that you could play more of them, but each one 'releases' the previous one! I like it, but perhaps it is too wild.

[Matt]

So how about the instant Null Chamber? It's a white counter, but quite flavourfull. Perhaps it could be made so that the spell gets put back on the stack when the Decree is destroyed.

And then make it an enchant world, so that you could play more of them, but each one 'releases' the previous one! I like it, but perhaps it is too wild.

No, I like that too.

Onean Decree
1WW
Enchant World
Onean Decree may be played whenever you could play an instant.
When Onean Decree comes into play, remove target nonwhite spell from the game.
Spells with the same name as the removed card can't be played.
When Onean Decree leaves play, return the removed spell to the stack.

I think that's the simplest, and therefore nicest. Does it need to mention that cards aren't spells unless they're on the stack?

Note that it does have the "nightmare" trick, where you can sacrifice it before the CIP trigger resolves, and have the target permanently RFGd. I think this is fine - your spell got caught up in the bureaucracy of laws getting passed and rescinded.

Are there any problems with getting sorcery-speed effects at instant speed?

[dandan]

Latest version changed to Matt's wording above.

I can't see any major problems with spells appearing on the stack at odd times, Ertai's Meddling did that with no problems.

To me, the only question is if this is too good a 'counterspell' for White. Of course few things in life are as good as responding to a YawgWill-fuelled barrage of Dark Rituals with an Abeyance but that hardly counts as countering...

Incidently this thread has become a good example of how people with radically different points of view can come to a consensus.

[stijndon]

Incidently this thread has become a good example of how people with radically different points of view can come to a consensus.

By Dutch interferance.

Long live the "Polder-model"

This is good with Claw of Gix; this is good with Infernal Tribute; this is mediocre with Faith Healer, since Faith Healer sucks.

[Matt]

I wish there were a shorter way to word this, but there isn't. There isn't any room for flavor text now, though.

It's not too strong because a) it's still nonwhite-only, and b) they can get the spell back if they can disenchant/naturalize/boomerang the Decree, or play an enchant world of their own. That last part even gives black and red a way out!

[dandan]

LOL at strong with Infernal Tribute. Good to see casual love in full force.

Since nobody has managed to improve on perfection I think it is time to have that 24/72 hour clock thing.

[Matt]

Closed and added.[/color]