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Author Topic: Banned and Restricted List Announcement Awareness/Countdown  (Read 6893 times)
Raph Caron
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« Reply #30 on: March 01, 2004, 06:14:37 pm »

*sigh*

Another 3 months of having to defend T1 while having unrestricted cards that make the opening hand too important. Another 3 months of too frequent random losses due to a broken start enabled by unrestricted mana accelerators...

Too bad the other formats suck.
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Cards I wish were restricted : Brainstorm, Mana Drain, Dark Ritual, Mishra's Workshop, Bazaar of Baghdad. Down to four!
Dr. Sylvan
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« Reply #31 on: March 01, 2004, 06:33:18 pm »

My main T1 advocacy lately has been "Funner Than A Barrel Of Monkeys", and the people who try it seem to agree.

I'm way more upset when something "normal" like Keeper resolving Yawgmoth's Will happens than I am when someone goes all fast-mana-Workshop on my poor self. I've never yet seen a successful Workshop-Metalworker, second turn pwn3d hand that worked out as planned.

Then again, I haven't tested against Storm combo in a while. Anticipate my return to bitching the moment that Smmenen breaks the metagame.
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dandan
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« Reply #32 on: March 02, 2004, 01:14:01 am »

You realise that they could make Portal legal anytime as it is not specifically excluded by the DCI. It would just need Wizards to call it a Magic expansion. Ditto for Starter, although of course that actually IS a Magic expansion. To avoid confusion, they will probably try to tie any announcement in with the B & R list announcement. Remember you can't use Portal Magic cards as they aren't Magic cards and you can't use Starter Magic cards because they aren't Magic cards, even though they are.

In any case, they have already updated Oracle to include Portal which was as far as I dared hope for 2004. As they updated it so early, I had hoped that they would use the first possible opportunity to make Type I the format where you can use any Magic card you own (minus Ante, Unglued and manual-dexterity cards).

I am starting to suspect that this is all a plot to keep bad players like me from dominating the format with Jungle Lion-powered Stompy decks...
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Playing bad cards since 1995
Ric_Flair
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« Reply #33 on: March 02, 2004, 09:57:44 am »

I for one am glad that nothing got restricted, nothing got unrestricted, and Portal was not added.

First, both Dark Ritual and Mishra's Workshop did not need to go.  That is not to say that somewhere down the line they will not be restricted, but the time is not now.  The reason that both of these cards do not need to be restricted is simple.  Though they allow for explosive first turns they also create decks that, without acceleration, are pretty awful.  I am not sure how many people asking for Workshop's restriction have played a lot of games against Workshop.  Jacob and Jeff have both run Workshop decks for about a year now and they are certainly capable of amazing starts, but they are also capable of horrid starts.  The notion of building a deck around high casting cost permanents and highly vulnerable mana sources is not inherently broken.  A similar argument can be made for Dark Ritual.  Nothing is busted right now.  The balance in the metagame indicates as much.  They did the right thing and left well enough alone.

Second, the issue of unrestriction is one that like restricting a card, needs to be taken very seriously.  As I said before I think there needs to be some sort of burden of proof that those in favor of unrestriction must overcome.  With a huge cardpool the possibility of one of these cards busting out is just too great.  Furthermore, even if one of the cards (Mind Over Matter being the most likely candidate in my mind) did not bust out and lead to some crazy deck there is the issue of power creep.  If they unrestrict Fork and Stroke big deal.  But if they unrestrict FoF and LoA suddenly Keeper and Tog, two powerful decks already get another pair of good tools.  And then aggro will need help and so on.  Again, the metagame was balanced as it is, so they left it alone.  Good job.

Third, this issue of Portal is something that baffles me.  I understand the theoretical appeal in saying that EVERY card in Magic is legal, but I think adding Portal is a bad idea.  First, the vast majority of the cards are terrible.  Second, the cards that are good are watered down version of cards we already have, like Imperial Seal.  Why are we clamoring for a sorcery speed Vamp Tutor when Vamp Tutor itself is not all that hot?  The mania for completeness seems to be the only good reason why.  Third, and most importantly, adding Portal and then restricting the necessary cards, as bad as it is Imperial Seal is still restriction worthy, would simply compound the critical mass problem.  If Portal was legal and Imperial Seal restricted what does that do, really?  It means that there are 3 cheap full tutor effects in Vintage, negating the fact that each individual card, Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, and Imperial Seal, are restricted.  We certainly do not need two Vamp Tutors, two Mystical Tutors, and so on.  So while it would be cool to play with Zodiac Dragon and Jungle Lion, overall adding Portal is such a hassle.  Final thought on the issue:  how much of an administrative nightmare would it be to have three sets in which every card is essentially totally errated and having to restrict cards automatically with the introduction of the sets?  Too many problems, not enough incentives....keep Portal out.
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jpmeyer
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« Reply #34 on: March 02, 2004, 11:47:25 am »

Doomsday is a great example of cards that look unrestrictable because people are still thinking inside the box.  The Doomsday DECK might be shitty, but casting Doomsday for like Grim Monolith, Power Artifact, Stroke of Genius, Brainstorm, and Impulse is not necessarily bad.
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Team Meandeck: "As much as I am a clueless, credit-stealing, cheating homo I do think we would do well to consider the current stage of the Vintage community." -Smmenen
dandan
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« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2004, 02:09:49 am »

Quote from: Ric_Flair
I for one am glad that nothing got restricted, nothing got unrestricted, and Portal was not added.

Third, this issue of Portal is something that baffles me.  I understand the theoretical appeal in saying that EVERY card in Magic is legal, but I think adding Portal is a bad idea.  First, the vast majority of the cards are terrible.  Second, the cards that are good are watered down version of cards we already have, like Imperial Seal.  Why are we clamoring for a sorcery speed Vamp Tutor when Vamp Tutor itself is not all that hot?  The mania for completeness seems to be the only good reason why.  Third, and most importantly, adding Portal and then restricting the necessary cards, as bad as it is Imperial Seal is still restriction worthy, would simply compound the critical mass problem.  If Portal was legal and Imperial Seal restricted what does that do, really?  It means that there are 3 cheap full tutor effects in Vintage, negating the fact that each individual card, Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, and Imperial Seal, are restricted.  We certainly do not need two Vamp Tutors, two Mystical Tutors, and so on.  So while it would be cool to play with Zodiac Dragon and Jungle Lion, overall adding Portal is such a hassle.  Final thought on the issue:  how much of an administrative nightmare would it be to have three sets in which every card is essentially totally errated and having to restrict cards automatically with the introduction of the sets?  Too many problems, not enough incentives....keep Portal out.


1. The vast majority of cards are terrible
The vast majority of cards in Portal and starter are low in power level although this does not make them terrible cards as many have excellent flavour and great art.
Assuming you are only talking about the power level of the cards, are you suggesting that sets should only be allowed into Type I if the vast majority of cards in them are not of a relatively low power level? Surely Legions, Prophecy, Homelands, The Dark and many other sets would be excluded under this principle.
2.The critical mass argument
The critical mass argument you present says that we should not allow the sets into Type I because there are good cards that are very similar to existing good cards. Thus you suggest that sets that contain cards similar to existing cards should not be allowed in Type I.
So no sets with the vast majority of cards in them weak by Type I standards, no sets with good cards that are similar to existing cards should be added to Type I. Oh, Brave New World...
3. Hassle/Admin
All that is required is an announcement, ideally with the B&r list for clarity (although this is not strictly speaking necessary) and to be very very safe the addition of Imperial Seal to the B & R list.
The Oracle listings already include Portal and Starter so there is no further work to be done on card interpretation. In addition a retarded chimp can understand the working of Starter and Portal cards, suggesting that people would have to consult the Oracle list in order to use these cards is a bit daft, they were specifically designed to be easy to understand. There are a huge number of Type I cards that you would have zero chance of understanding properly if you read just the card without knowing the Oracle wording and pages of rulings. (Helm of Obedience anyone?)
Perhaps you are taking of Horsemanship? I believe players who can handle Flanking, Phasing, Double Strike, Trample, Banding and Rampage can figure it out. That combined with the fact that no Horseman will see the light of day in serious competition.

Type I IS the format where every card is allowed unless there is a good reason not to. Frankly there is no good reason not to allow these cards.
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Playing bad cards since 1995
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