so i'm probably savagely ripping off that milan deck...

[jpmeyer]

4 Mishra's Workshop
        4 Volcanic Island
        4 Polluted Delta
        3 Seat of the Synod
        1 Island

        3 [card]Sword of Fire and Ice[/card]
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Grim Monolith
        1 Mana Vault
        1 Memory Jar

        4 Goblin Welder
        4 Juggernaut
        4 Su-Chi
        1 Platinum Angel

        4 Force of Will
        4 Brainstorm
        4 Mana Leak
        3 Thirst for Knowledge
        1 Tinker
        1 Time Walk
        1 Ancestral Recall

SB would probably be like 3-ofs of Stifle, REB, BEB, Rack and Ruin, and Fire/Ice.  I'm not sure what I'd side out to bring those various cards in though.

Sword of Fire and Ice is really, really good.  It's like a 4/4 creature with echo for 3 or a creature with haste for 5.  It won't stop StP but it does get around Rack and Ruin and Psychatog, which counts for something.

The reason that I like this deck is because it takes the speed of TnT (it loses the Anger kills but gains Sword kills) but gives it more draw (granted, the draw might not be as powerful over time.)  More importantly to me anyway, actually counters seem like they would be more useful than stuff like Pyrostatic Pillar.  Counters help a lot too against Tog because even if you lose the counter war over their Cunning Wish, if you make them Force it will reduce their damage by about 6 points (with Berserk) which buys you an extra 2 turns or so on average.

I really just thought about this today so I obviously haven't gotten to test yet but I got so excited by this that I couldn't resist posting it.

[ReAnimator]

that deck looks like a ton of fun to play,
however i'm wondering why no mana crypt? and could mana drain find its way in here or would it just be to hard to cast?

[Smash]

Swords is pretty cool. They can still rack and ruin the sword away, so it won't totally save the day...

[Magi]

The first time I saw Sword of Fire and Ice I thought: NEGATOR


Sword of Fire and Ice is pretty housey, I was wondering when people would start using it.

I haven't had much time to try it out because I've been playing the fishies.

[Hyperion]

The other nice thing about Sword of Fire and Ice is that it should be a monster against other Workshop decks because it keeps their Welders off the table and even if they can keep it active, it makes it harder for them to Weld away your threats. Thus, it'd make Su-Chi a lot better.

Mana Drain would be really hard to support...Drain and Workshop are almost mutually exclusive because they have such diverse requirements/effects on this mana base.

I feel like Chalice might be preferable to Mana Leak but I guess you need those extra blue cards for Force of Will.

[The Hamburgler]

With the most common removal of the era being Swords to Plowshares and the lack of Swords of Fire and Ices protection against don't you think this deck is to susceptible to it or any other basic artifact or creature removal. As you pointed that out as well as how the deck is alike TnT besides the speed of Anger and the amazing engine Survival of the Fittest. You might want to try out Lightning Greaves; it voids Swords to Plowshares and makes faster, harder to kill beats. Along with this idea, I think Myr Enforcer may be a very viable option. Although this deck looks much alike Broodstar Runner.dec (unaffiliated with the original that actually ran Broodstar) I feel that speedy aggro with basics might be the correct route for the current environment. I despise any artifact lands due to a showing of six different copies in a top eight I tried it out in, and in my opinion make the deck much weaker to the ever popular Null Rod and various artifact destruction. I think the Sword of Fire/Ice is an amazing card, and the deck will sure-fire beat tog two out of three. Here is a recent build on a similar based idea:

The Mr. Ts of MTG
4 Myr Enforcer
4 Juggernaut
4 Su-Chi
1 Platinum Angel
1 Triskelion

The Engine:
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Memory Jar
1 Ancestral Recall

The Toolbox:
4 Goblin Welder
1 Tinker
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister

Protection:
4 Force of Will
3 Lightning Greaves
3 Sword of Fire and Ice (this is your tech- no credit taken)

The Mana-base
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Island
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring
1 Grim Monolith
1 Black Lotus

Sideboard
3 Rack and Ruin
3 Stifle
3 Fire/Ice
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Platinum Angel

Explanations (for sideboard, if you have any questions or want to play test on mws/ apprentice IM me at XoX BuboniC XoX)

Rack and Ruin
Obvious hate against artifact prison, annoyance and tubbies that block yours. Rack and Ruin, although with no draw effect has utility. It is two effects for one card in hand. A negative one card in hand and with two effects emits a positive effect on the playing field. I personally favor these type cards, especially Solemn Simulacrum.

Stifle
All around a tool has very seldom matches where it isn't useful. It ruins dragon’s game plan and can disrupt fetches and waste effects, which are ever popular.

Firce/Ice
Mostly it has served its purpose in killing other Goblin Welders. In a rare occurrence it can have even juicier targets to fester on, Phyrexian Negator, mox monkey and the occasional Basking Rootwalla. Xantid Swarm can be evil when playing against combo, when a surprise Force of Will is critical.

Tormod's Crypt
Goblin Welder, Worldgorger Dragon, Academy Rector, a big Yawgmoth's Will, Mindslaver and any other animate effects are shutdown by this and a Goblin Welder. Tormod's Crypt is easily one the best removal of graveyards. Even though it is a one time state-based effect, it can slow Dragon and Rector-Tendrils enough for you to get the heavy beats on.

Platinum Angel- the silly
A favorite against TnT. Out races their fat and is a tool against Tendrils and dragon. If you can muster a first turn Goblin Welder/ Lightning Greaves with Welder it is a near auto-win against Dragon. They mill your library and you bring in the Platinum Angel. I was at -1,000,000,000,000 and had -1,000,000,000,000 cards in my library and was still alive. If anything were hard to achieve in Magic, it would have to be that.

Conclusion
I started thinking as well as discard/ draw effects. Contenders would be Fact or Fiction and Frantic Search. I don't like Brainstorm at all; I believe if the deck had to strive to get this engine then TnT already beat it with the ever-spectacular Survival of the Fittest. Mana Leaks are feasible if you play in a very heavy combo filled environment or with allot of TnT/ other fast beat down decks. It is a metagame call, and it definitely doesn't fit here. Good luck, and I will see you at the championship tournament hopefully.
                                                        - The Hamburgler

[Dr. Sylvan]

Until I saw the "or player" and "draw a card" abilities, I thought that card was total crap. But damn if I'm not intrigued. (And it has a pretty picture! Heehee!)

I don't know if I like the Forces and Leaks. Pyrostatic Pillar is calling to me for this deck since you've got the potential for such huge swings by a lone Juggy; you want their life down just that little bit more. Blood Moon also, for the usual reasons. Also, Lightning Greaves to replace the Anger speed.

[Androstanolone]

I like the idea of the deck, I think you need to run a little higher creature count to get the most out of sword of fire and ice, a few myrs wouldn't hurt, their CC comes down to 4-5 pretty easily and they can be damn near free later.  The swords also means you don't need quite as much card draw, but I'd say the lack of anger and survival would neccesitate lightning greaves since your creatures don't hit quite as quick, aren't as easily replaceable via survival and, again, sword just sits there without a creature.  Can you think of how insane a greaved, sworded juggie would be?  O_O.  I donno if a plat angel is really necessary or not... I really doubt it but it's worth testing.  Mana leak vs. pillar, after resolving a greaved and/or sworded fattie a resolved pillar is basically game.  I'm a little slanted torwards the idea that aggro should focus on proactively killing the opponent rather than reacting with a counterspell.  Pillar would have more synergy with the deck than leak I think, though leak can snatch bombs or bait counters.  The blue base also gives you access to the godly Fow in addition to Thirst, a pretty good draw engine.  

Finally, running 6-8 equipment (swords + greaves) is kinda iffy, but perhaps they can make your creatures potent enough to just bash your opponent into the ground.  Either way, I'd test a blue based version with leaks and fows and a red based version with pillars and greaves, and try out anywhere from 2 to 4 myrs.



- androstan

[jpmeyer]

Back in 2000, when Tubbies decks were all the range after Stacker broke, people tried mono-blue and U/R versions that ran Mana Drain but you could almost never get it active until turn 3.  Mana Leak can usually go online whenever you want/need it to be, whether it's turn 1 against something or turn 2 after you drop your threat.

Lightning Greaves is more like a direct damage spell than a creature like SOFI.  Greaves will do 4 once while SOFI will do 4 every turn and draw you a card.

One of the reasons that I really wanted to play Force and Leak in this deck is because it just seemed too easy for me when I was playing Tog against TnT to just go "Mana Drain, win!" or "Deed, win!"  At least now they have to work for it.  Also, it royally messes up Berserk.  If they Wish for Berserk, you Leak the Wish, and they Force back, they're now short like 5-6 damage (factoring in the Berserk) from where they werer before so that buys you a good 2ish turns.

[Androstanolone]

You're right jp, greaves is inferior to swords.  I'd still consider upping the creature count so you have a better chance of fat+swords.  Also, resolved pillar is a huge bomb against tog, it doesn't just slow them down usually it wins the game.  I'd definitely test a pillar version vs. a leak version.  Congratz on the nice idea jp!  I'd never even seen sword before today... just goes to show that there's always some good tech laying around uncovered in T1.  Anyway, keep us updated on how the deck goes, I'm gonna mess around with my pillar + myr version, later.  



- Androstan

[DEA]

greaves inferior to swords is actually quite debatable
this really depends on which decks you run them in
for aggro like tnt, sofi is better because you're concerned with dealing dmg
the card draw is gravy
but for weldermud, greaves protects your key assets, which swords will not (farming goblins are not funny)
i've won many matches based on the fact that my opponent had no removal for a greaved welder

that said, i've always wanted to use the sofi ever since i saw it
the pic rox, and it's just so flavourful
we once joked about putting the sword of light and darkness on a sabertooth nishoba *giggles*

[Tim the Enchanter]

SOFI protects your guys against bounce and burn, that cancels out a lot of the most common removal - If you really want to you could protect your welder with it from Fire/Ice, bolts, etc. Too bad Null rod kills it, otherwise it would've been awesome in fish.

[DEA]

that is true, but like i said, plow is another very common form of removal in my parts
one more thing is that you need 2 to equip while greaves takes zero, and haste on a welder means i can weld in sundering titan to rape keeper's lands immediately instead of risking a balance on his main phase

[Matt]

So did you guys see this thread?

[Dr. Sylvan]

So did you guys see this thread?

Shannon rocks our world. I wonder how many regulars typically check the Budget Forum.

You're right about Sword. In goldfishing, it was cool, but outside of that, its just too slow. On the matter of countermagic, I think that adding Pyrostatic Pillar would be stronger against control and combo (assuming you get a turn) since it gives youl a nother must counter threat.

I'd be fascinated to know how close to viable SoFI was. If the difference is something that can be fixed with Moxen, the idea can still work.

[Zherbus]

Actually I read the budget forum because those guys sometimes try the hardest. When I need off the wall tech to try out, thats where you can find it.

[Gothmog]

I also have found the Sword is pretty slow.

Also, none of the creatures you're throwing it on have any evasion, and you are playing no burn making the path to your opponent very cluttered.

God forbid someone play a River Boa.  

In playing around with the Sword, I've found it really loves evasive creatures.  Ironically, my favorite creature to throw it on is a Serenbid Efreet, they are beating machines with a Sword.  Blue of course opens up Mana Drain as a possibility also to fuel getting the Sword out, but I haven't yet found the pieces to hang around this skeleton.

[jpmeyer]

derfTolarian Academyderf.  -1 Seat obv.

The Sword is only slow in a version like that budget one because they don't have Mishra's Workshop.  The 3cc of Sword makes it curve really well with the Workshop.

[Vegeta2711]

Sword is fucking awesome, even if it doesn't work here. I'm def. running 2-3 in normal mono R stacker 3 now.

I still find the Leaks to be shitty, but that could just be because I'm playing the deck overly aggresive.