[Single Card Discussion] Arcbound Ravager

[Vegeta2711]

[card]Arcbound Ravager[/card]

For only 2 mana, he comes down first turn and can grow into a sizeable threat by just sacrificing random artifacts.

Now by itself just sacrificing things could seem rather stupid for just +1/+1 counters, but add even a few other Arcbound creatures or Skullclamp to the mix. Now suddenly you have a creature that will grow very big, very fast and will be drawing you a decent number of cards along the way.

Also note the Modular ability, though normally this would be too big a deal, for a creature with no form of evasion or protection this becomes very important. When Arcbound eats it, he can move all his counters (and there will probably be a signficant amount) to another artfiact creature. Also note with his sacrifice ability, you can simply sacrifice him yourself to dodge plows or to move the counters around without needing a Welder or him to die.

I've already seen a few lists use him in the budget forum and I've seriously been considering a Stacker variant based around him. But I wonder what your guys thoughts are on the Ravager.

[BrokenNut]

I like the little bugger, I would test him if I had any. His ability looks very strong, allowing any artifact on the board to dodge swords, not just himself, so they can be welded back later if need be. And being able to move his counters to something else is really strong. Especially if that something else happens to be a Triskelion or Pentavus. Then it's very busted. He's like the little Atog that could, hehe. And he fits nicely in the mana curve, 2 mana, so if you can a no workshop hand, you go land, mox, ravager. He would also probably start getting people to play Artifact lands, since he can just eat those when need be. People should really start playing those things more, they are very solid, with just welders and metal workers alone, but now with this guy as well, even more use for them.

I think the Ravager like the Sword of Fire and Ice could be really strong additions to Stacker decks, just need to find room and test them to see if they actually work. My first reaction though is they are both very strong. Anyone have testing data? I know there is that Milan tourney I think where a guy got 2nd with a deck that used both of these cards.

[TheFram]

He's definitely spectacular in my Aggro/Slaver budget deck, but that is because the deck is built to abuse his synergy w/ Skullclamp, Su-Chi and Goblin Welder, and Arcbound Slith.

For reference, here is the listing from the budget board.

Critters - 20
4 Goblin Welder
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Arcbound Slith
4 Juggernaut
4 Su-Chi

Cool Lockies/Tools - 7
2 Mindslaver
2 Lightning Greaves
3 Skullclamp

Draw - 7
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Wheel of Fortune

Mana - 26
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Mountain
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Strip Mine
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Grim Monolith
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal

Sb
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Platinum Angel
1 Pentavus
1 Anger
2 Rack and Ruin
3 Lightning Bolt/Pyrostatic Pillar
* Board made expecting Dragon


Without Workshops, this deck cant afford to have too many heavy drops, so Arcbound Ravager and Slith are really helpfull since I can cast them turn 1, and still clock control at the same speed as a turn 1 Su-Chi. Slith allows quick counter accumulation, while Ravager allows for Skullclamp, Su-Chi, and Slith abuse, as well as making excellent welder fodder. The counters dont go away when he dies, which is SWEET.

Basically the point of the deck is aggro synergy w/ late/mid game Mindslaver lock as a second win condition. For this deck Ravager is the shit, but i think that mostly because it is budget. Workshop and power make earlier more costly things really much better. Its possible ravager has a place in powered vintage, but I think that it might very well be relegated to budget.

[The Hamburgler]

I think it would fit in with effects like Yawgmoth's Will, Diminishing Returns and Timetwister, where it should serve as the new slaver.dec combo for workshop biased decks. I think it is a cool idea, but is shut down easily. With Swords to Plowshares still being the best removal, the deck is kindered. Second off, why not TnT? It has a better engine (Survival of the Fittest) and can kill at a temperate same speed with fast beatdown.

[BrokenNut]

TnT generally has better things to be doing with its time and mana. Especially for a non workshop 2 drop. It doesnt want to go with the whole sacrificng route, its got better utility critters than the ravager. Perhaps as a 1 of, but even then I would rather be survivaling for something more effective for the current situation. In the Stacker decks, they are more focused on the beat down and the end the game now plan than TnT. TnT is very much a control deck compared to Stacker. The Ravager really helps out with the beatdown, so it flows with stacker decks a lot better.

[Smash]

Ravager is not a single card disccusion. You either design a deck around him like affinity, or he is very poor (like in TnT).

[Rico Suave]

No.  Stacker was not designed when Ravager was even in existence, yet it could very well fit nicely there.

[The Atog Lord]

I'm not certain that it can be translated into Type One, but the Type Two scene in Providence is being torn apart by Ravager Affinity. Using artfiact lands and inexpensive artifacts, it is built around Ravager and Atog. As terrible as he may seem, Disciple of the Vault is very strong in the deck as well. Myself, as my screen name implies, I'm just happy to see Atog in a  deck again.

What has surprised me -- and why I mention this at all -- is that I have been beating a large number of Type One decks with this deck. Therefore, I think there might be some potential for a deck designed around Ravager in Type One. Here's the Type Two list that I've been playing; hopefully it will lead to some ideas for how the Ravager might be best utilized in Type One.

// Creatures
        4 Disciple of the Vault
        4 Arcbound Ravager
        4 Frogmite
        4 Myr Enforcer
        4 Ornithopter
        4 Atog
        4 Arcbound Worker
// Spells
        4 Chromatic Sphere
        4 Shrapnel Blast
        4 Skullclamp
        4 Welding Jar
// Land
        4 Vault of Whispers
        4 Great Furnace
        4 Darksteel Citadel
        4 Glimmervoid

[RoadTrippin]

I've been playing the deck since right after Mirrodin came out.. thinking I was original and all with my t2 deck "Revenge of Old School"    I used Lightning Greaves since the only massive animal I had was Atog, and I think Greaves is something to consider even in T1. Although they can obviously send 'tog farming in response to equipping, the deck has serious disruption problems anyway- solving one problem will solve the other, so yeah. Just an idea.

[ganandorf]

What has surprised me -- and why I mention this at all -- is that I have been beating a large number of Type One decks with this deck. Therefore, I think there might be some potential for a deck designed around Ravager in Type One. Here's the Type Two list that I've been playing; hopefully it will lead to some ideas for how the Ravager might be best utilized in Type One.

embarrisingly enough, I lost to a build very similar to the one you listed when playing my Mask deck. this definatly has potential, but do you think that it will be able to stand any hate at all? the deck scoops to null rod

[The Atog Lord]

This deck scoops to Null Rod and Pernicious Deed. However, most aggro decks have some Achilles' Heel which can lead to their downfall. The theory behind a deck like this is that it may be so fast that it can win before the opposing deck can draw and cast the hate. Perhaps some disruption would be needed. I'm not saying that there is a definite Type One deck waiting to be constructed here; however, seeing the Type Two deck in action has made me realize that it is probably worth further investigating.

[Vegeta2711]

Eh... the only changes worth making really are cutting out the crappier 0 mana stuff for solomoxen, crypt and vault. Maybe if you have some room throw in Will, DT and Wheel. There aren't too many changes worth making, because you start to destroy the synergy with the better cards you use.  :lol:

[The Atog Lord]

The recent Dülmen results are in, and a Ravager-based deck took second.

http://www.morphling.de/coverages/top8decks.php?id=110

As for the list itself, I just played half a dozen games with it, and was less than thrilled. In particular, as interesting as Arcbound Crusher is, having such an expensive spell forces the deck to run Metalworker and Workshop. In the games I played, these cards really seemed to clog up the deck; it did not feel as consistent as the Type Two version.

These results show that a Ravager deck is capable of doing well. Though, I do miss the Atogs.

[ThanksBarn]

Maybe this deck would be better if it could find room for the 4th chamber and frogmite.

[Tijnie]

@Atog lord

well why don't you take a peek right http://www.morphling.de/coverages/top8decks.php?id=116 . I see atog, S, Blasts.. looks like agrro ravenger to me or something like that  

[Ric_Flair]

There are a few things I am wondering about.  First, if the Ravager is in a deck built to be a Type One version of Affinity, with fast creatures and low cc artifacts, how is this deck better than Tendrils combo decks.  This is what I think of as the convergence problem.  If you add all the artifact acceleration to the deck and use Ravager as the kill, wouldn't the deck be better if you swapped out Ravager for Tendrils?  In which case it is a bad Draw7.dec.  

I think the more profitable route is using Ravager in a Stacker variant to give Stacker some late game stamina, which it desparately needs.  Something like this:

4 Welder
4 Juggernaut
4 Myr Enforcer
3 Ravagers

2 Lightning Greaves
2 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire

4 Lightning Bolt or Fire/Ice

1 Memory Jar

8 SoloMoxen Crypt
1 Grim Monolith
1 Mana Vault
4 Wastelands
1 Strip Mine
4 Workshops
5 Mountains

The deck could undoubtedly be improved by adding blue, but then it is basically Jeff's Broodstarrunner deck.  Convergence again.  

I put this together last night to see what would happen.  Eeeck, weird ass hands and complicated Welder/Ravager tricks.  I also tried it with Metalworkers and then I realized I never needed that much mana.  It is also a bit light on the red sources and of course has the all acceleration no threat hands to go with the all threat no acceleration hands.  Maybe TNT is just better.  That or I am still thinking too much "inside the box."

[jpmeyer]

I thought the whole point was the Ravager/Skullclamp/Disciple synergy.  The synergy there with Clamp gives you inevitability and Disciple gives you speed

[gashole]

I'm still a n00b at putting together my own decklists, but can someone explain to me if Duress is or is not appropriate for this deck (assuming you're running the Disciple version)? I guess I'm trying to draw similarities to Sui, since this wants to beat down as quickly as possible. It seems to me that Disciple and Ravager are both pretty vulnerable, so Duress could protect them. Or is that a horrible idea? I'd like to learn a lesson here.

[Vegeta2711]

First, if the Ravager is in a deck built to be a Type One version of Affinity, with fast creatures and low cc artifacts, how is this deck better than Tendrils combo decks.

Wrong kind of comparision.

Compare aggro affinity to FCG for lack of anything better. Both decks can lay early beats, draw lots of cards and 'combo' out in a way. The only difference is Affinity is a little bit faster (having all the moxen w/ affinity tends to do that), but is FAR more hateable.

Oh and Ravager doesn't work in Stacker well, good try though. If you want a 'late game', run 3 SoFI, Jar and maybe even splash blue for Ancestral and Thirst.

I thought the whole point was the Ravager/Skullclamp/Disciple synergy. The synergy there with Clamp gives you inevitability and Disciple gives you speed

That pretty much sums it up. The main way affinity wins in all ravager affinity versions is mainly through Ravager/Atog maulings backed by Disciples. Hell if you can resolve 2 Disciples on the board the game is over 90% of the time, because the opponent is about to lose a massive amount of life. Skullclamp is just a awesome card drawer, esp. combined with all the cheap Modular crap.

-Duress is ok, just nothing special. It also doesn't fit the real synergy of the deck, so it's a hard sell. I'd certainly consider it though for the reasons you mentioned.

[ThanksBarn]

Could someone explain to me why most of these decks arent including goblin welder? The synergy with thirst for knowledge is awesome. Plus if they counter your ravager you can get it back. Along with repeatedly clamping your workers for card advantage. Help me please!

[SpencerForHire]

Welder works better in say a Prison deck.  The decks people believe [card]Arcbound Ravager[/card] work best in are aggro/aggro-combo decks; much like FCG, in reality besides the ravager themselves there aren't many cards worth welding back, if you want to maximize efficiency you want more artifacts and less 'bulk' cards.
Goblin welder is neither an artifact nor an "I win" card in Ravager decks, it is simply a way to get a ravager back, when you could just draw a better card, why run the welder.

[ThanksBarn]

I disagree completely.

Then say WHY. This post has no content and is, in effect, completely worthless. If you continue to make posts like this, rest assured, you will be banned. Consider this a verbal warning.

-Jacob

[Aniodia]

Ok, I know this is going to sound weird, but bear with me.

What about running Intruder Alarms with the Welders? The way I see it, each tine a Ravager comes into play via a Welder, it gains the counters from another Ravager on it's way out, as well as the normal one it would gain.* With the Alarm in play, the Welder untaps and you just get a huge-arse Ravager.

By running blue, you'd have access to the Broken Blue as well as Tinker, which isn't such a bad thing. Then again, this idea is just something I thought of out of my arse, so feel free to disregard it if you wish.

*This would work, I think, as the Ravager's counter-moving ability would go on the stack after the resolution of the Welder's effect. Since the new Ravager is in play when it resolves, it could be a legal target for the counters in theory. If I'm wrong, then this whole idea is shot to hell.

[BreathWeapon]

I think Ravager Affinity has the power and speed to be a solid Type 1 deck, you'd just have to convince people there is a reason to run it over TnT (Lack of Workshops doesn't count). Inevitably, any "optimal" list you put together is going to involve the Ravager, Enforcer/Frog, Skull Clamp, Disciple and Draw 7's. The difficult part of building the T1 Ravager deck is finding suitable Disruptiona and Anti-Hate cards. Sphere of Resistance has been pretty spectacular for me, but I have no clue how to deal with Null Rod other than rolling over Fish with FAT or adding Red.

Eh, in the end this deck is ultimately a slightly faster version of FCG for a hell of a lot more money. Doesn't hurt to try tho'.

[Tubebar]

I've also heard stories like Atog Lord's. A keeper player was telling me over the weekend how, no matter how hard he tried, he was always defeated by A ravenger affinity deck. Metagame wise, if word of this gets around, we could be seeing more affinity decks at big T1 tournies simply because people already have it built. This I imagine would lead to bad mactchups for a number of decks, like keeper.

Now, i doubt this deck could ever really be close to tier one, but it could swing the meta based on numbers. Or, i should say, it can be expected in more budget oriented metagames. It's one more deck we may have to start expecting in the future. My remedy for keeper in this matchup is moat, which would be friggin great. but that's probably a bad idea, so whateva. Oh, and tog might run 2 deeds main and 1 in the board.

[Irish31]

I first thought of playing a t1 affinity when it was beating the crap out of my Extended Rock in it's block build.

Deed didn't really do anything usually, if he had a citadel out he would recover in one turn usually, because glimmervoid would always stay around and the deck never really needs more then 2 mana to run.

Shatterstorm in T1 would be an Akroma's Vengence in T2 aganist this deck.

I am working on an Ext version with Tangle Wires. I made a T1 variant but it needs MAJOR tweaking.

Jay

[SpencerForHire]

Howbout the mad t3ch [card]Meltdown[/card].
Its like a super Deed that just fries the essence of the deck.  A large portion of decks run red, this card might be just what Dr. Keeper ordered.

[ThanksBarn]

jacob read my first post in this forum, thanks b.

This belongs in a PM if ANYTHING. Please make your posts actually have some merit in the future, thanks.

-Vegeta2711

[jpmeyer]

Or Keeper could just StP the Ravager

[Smash]

Or Keeper could just StP the Ravager

It just sacs itself and pumps the other dude.