[Deck] WelderMUD - or Why Can't I Beat Gay/R Fish???

[Corwin]

Another Type 1 Tournament, and I can't beat Gay/R Fish.
I went 3-1-1 to make Top 8, beating Crap.dec, BadStompy, and Draw-7, then losing to Gay/R Fish, ID'ing with Tog into the Top 8... and I pair against another Gay/R Fish deck and lose!?!?!

Why can't I beat this stupid deck?
I talked to Phantom Tape Worm (who drew in the finales, again... and playing.... you guessed it, Gay/R Fish... the one person playing it I didn't face)... and his suggestion was Fat creatures... like Sui-Chi's on the board.  

Before you start though, I play Mind's Eyes because it is better in my meta, and it fits my playstyle better.  Please do not start the Mind's Eye vs. Skullcap debate.  Also, I have tested Trinisphere, and I do not like it.  While I agree that Turn-1 Trinisphere is awsome against so many decks, drawn after Turn 2 is mostly a waste, so please don't start that debate either.

My 2x "Meta" slots were Jester's Cap, because DC-Area is known for being Control-heavy, and I like the Cap vs. Control... especially against Keeper!  :lol:   But I am willing to try other things.

I think the maindeck is pretty solid, but the Board isn't helping me here.

WelderWUD 2k4

//The Lock - 16//
4x Smokestack
4x Tangle Wire
4x Sphere of Resistance
4x Chalice of the Void

//Creatures - 10//
4x Metalworker
4x Goblin Welder
2x Karn, Silver Golem

//Card Drawing - 5//
3x Mind's Eye
1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Memory Jar

//Metagame Slots - 2//
2x Jester's Cap

//Mana Sources - 26//
7x Mountain
4x Mishra's Workshop
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
1x Ancient Tomb
1x Tolarian Academy

1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Emerald

1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Sol Ring


//Sideboard - 15//
4x Rack and Ruin
4x Red Elemental Blast
4x Tormod's Crypt
3x Mindslaver


I know the 3x Mindslaver's on the board seem janky, but against a lot of decks, brining them in is huge, and even without activating them, dropping them on the board can cause players to concede!

I have been playing with the idea of Sui-Chi's for fat vs. Fish, but not sure what to drop.  I don't want to play Skullcap, so Ensnaring Bridge makes no sense either.

Ideas/Thoughts/Comments?

Corwin

[Jacob Orlove]

I was running 4x Triskelion in my welder mud SB for the longest time. They absolutely destroy Fish, and they're excellent against anything else with Welders, and against random aggro decks. Even if Fish gets out a Null Rod, it's a 4/4, and without the Rod, it kills 2-4 of their creatures each time you weld it back.

[Smash]

0 trisk and 0 fire ice. No wonder you can't beat fish

I p0wn fish pretty easily with stax.

Trisk is all around better, but null rod is the suck.

[DavidHernandez]

Corwin:

Gay/r is really an amazing deck.  Even with only 3 piece of power (Mox Sapphire, Library of Alexandria, and Ancestral Recall) it is devestating.

The builds i am familiar with run 3 main deck Null Rods.  This would be huge against you, as it shuts down 16 of your main deck cards (most of which are mana producers).

Also, they run 5 maindeck strip effects plus 3 Stifles, so they can get around your Workshops, Wastelands, and Smokestacks.  In addition, their creatures (Razorfin Hunters and/or Grim Lavamancers ) can shoot your Welders.

You need a way to ping them to death.  Main deck Triskelion x2 is good.  Of course, Null Rod shuts them down.  

Team Mean Deck and some of the players at C&J's can probably pipe-in some excellent ideas, since they really spearheaded this design.

I like to run Viashino Heretics to fight the Null Rods, and Fire/Ice can help you against the weenie horde.  Gay/r usually runs 2 main deck Misdirections, so be careful about choosing a single target with Fire/Ice.

Gay/r is just GOOD, and when piloted by an experienced player can be a real pain...

dave.

[Corwin]

@Jacob - Yeah, Trikes can be good, but it can be hard to cast one with the Null Rod already out (which they seem to do every game against me on Turn 2).

@David - Most of the Fish decks are running Cloud of Fairies, Spiketail Hatchling, Voidmage Prodigy (some), and Grim Lavamancer... haven't run into any with Razorfins yet.  I have thought about Fire/Ice, but not sure what to pull for them... I like the Viashino Heretic idea... I had forgotten about them!

I don't know why, but every time I face Fish, if I don't drop a Turn-1 Sphere or Chalice for 2, they drop a Null Rod on me... and darned if I didn't get 2x Turn-1 Null Rods on Saturday!

Fire/Ice & Heretics sound good... but I can't figure what to drop for them.  I've been thinking about dropping the Slavers for them... but the Slaver Lock has won me a lot of Game 2 & 3's... it also makes opponents think I run a transform-SB to Slavery, which I'm not really... but the Slaver just wrecks Tog, Keeper, and a number of other decks.

[DavidHernandez]

you could drop a Chalice, a Sphere, a Karn, and the 2 Caps.

then add 2 or 3 Fire/Ice, or 2/3 Viashino.  Since this is a situational matchup, i suggest 3 Fire/Ice and 2 Viashino's.  

If you just want to sideboard this stuff, you can make room by dropping the Mindslavers.

i edited my post to remove the comment about Stax.  I was looking at someone elses post regarding Stax, and got it confused with yours.

Dave.

[jpmeyer]

Cut Caps and Karns for 4 Trinisphere

[Corwin]

Cut Caps and Karns for 4 Trinisphere

Cut the Karns?
Then my only "win" it to swing with a Metalworker or Welder 20 times???
That seems to remove the quick kill that WelderMUD can have with the lock out and dropping Karn.  Seems like it cuts the deck off at the knees for a better chance to slow them down... but it leaves a thin win condition.

[jpmeyer]

Usually, what happens is that if you've got your opponent locked they will either concede or you can simply beat down with your Metalworkers and Welders.  It really isn't that hard.

The Trinispheres help a lot against Fish by wrecking their free spells.

[Jacob Orlove]

Do you SB in the Rack and Ruin versus Fish? I found it key to take out Null Rods and Factories, even though those are pretty much the only targets.

[Corwin]

Do you SB in the Rack and Ruin versus Fish? I found it key to take out Null Rods and Factories, even though those are pretty much the only targets.

I usually do, but seem to never have the Red mana, or I can't get the Non-workshop mana, as the Null Rod shuts down too much of my non-workshop mana sources.

[nataz]

hey,
coming from a G/red player i would have to say the three things i fear from WMud in this order are

1)early fat

I have almost no main deck answer to a first turn sui chi. Its going to take me at least till my turn 2 to maybe ping it with a lavamancer and block with a 2/x creature. If you go first that means at least two free swings, and I am suddenly down 8 life. Early fat makes all fish decks cry, which is why TnT has always been such a poor match-up. This of course may not be optimal for your deck list, but if you are in a meta filled with fish and are consistantly having problems, maybe its time for a change.

2) First turn Trinisphere. Jp said it well when he stated that it cuts off all of our "free" spells. All fish decks tap out early, and depend on the free counters (daze, Mis D, Force) to keep opponents threats down. If we cant disrupt you till turn three G/red is in deep trouble. The reason why our "mini" beatsticks can win is simply because we have enough disruption that you dont even get to play untill we have a decent board already up and going. Trinisphere turn one means no null rod, counters, or creatures till much much later in the game. This of course also applies to S. of resistance, but on a much lower level.

3) Trike. ugh. Unchecked a trike will win you the game every single time. It will clear our entire board, again, and again, and again. However there are two reasons why it is only number 3. One, null rod shuts down its machine gun, and two an active grim will kill welders on sight stoping any recursion tricks. Even so, it is still a huge threat as an early 4/4.

hope this helps

[Raven Fire]

Do you SB in the Rack and Ruin versus Fish? I found it key to take out Null Rods and Factories, even though those are pretty much the only targets.

I usually do, but seem to never have the Red mana, or I can't get the Non-workshop mana, as the Null Rod shuts down too much of my non-workshop mana sources.

This is true; I saw it happen.  

[Smash]

@nataz

Stax doesn't need fat. If the lock components don't do it, some form of artifact pimpmonsters (not mox monkies), and R&R will take out those null rods quite nicely.

Also, you can many times get out of a nullrod lock with a stack. That is how I solve most of my null rod problems.

[Hi-Val]

Twice I have T8ed with Gay Red in Columbus. The last time I was thoroughly pwned by Stax. More specifically, pwned by Trinisphere. The card is house against Gay Red, let me assure you of that. They have to mull down until they find a FoW just on the suspicion that you have trinis. Factories go under it, but you shut down everything else. You're free to Tangle Wire until you find a Smokestack and kill them outright.

[Mana Duane]

I've found Trinisphere to be better than sphere of resistance in almost all cases. I would certainly run 4 trini before adding any sphere of resistance to the deck.

Also how about Masticore as sideboard creature removal (or main board in place of Jesters Cap)? As well as acting as a machine gun, it is fast fat (ie as fast and as fat as su-chi) and the regeneration capability will help against common artifact removal. Null rod will shut him down but you still have a 4/4 beatstick. Skullcap has shown that WelderMUD doesn't mind discarding and your Minds Eyes should help reduce the effect of the upkeep. I prefer Masticore to Trisk mainly due to casting cost. I am confident that i can get 4 mana, while 6 seams to be a lot, even for a workshop deck.

[Smash]

3spheres and spheres of R fight each other... the ONLY problem with 3sphere is that multiples do not help much, and they don't make good tangle wire bait. In the long term, you would rather have out 2-3 spheres of resistance as they make everything cost more (rack and ruin for 5 mana instead of 3). In the short term, 1 3sphere is MUCH better than 1 sphere of resistance.

Also with a 3sphere out, having 1 sphere of resistance doesnt do much.

I am undecided on the exact ratio. I think 4 3-sphere is a must, but I don't know how many spheres of resistance you want. If you just want them to act as speedbumps 1-2 is okay, but they have no long term threat power (compared to running 4 and getting multiples out).

[Raven Fire]

Another Type 1 Tournament, and I can't beat Gay/R Fish.

Why can't I beat this stupid deck?

Don't forget that you would have won our match 2-0 if you had dropped the Chalice for 2 instead of the Slaver.  On a lighter note: Metalworker beats is a dead sexy 20 turn clock!

[Corwin]

Yes, I love nothing better than announcing "METALWORKER BEATDOWN!!!"

I will try re-testing with Trinisphere and see how that works for me.  While I know it will help vs. Fish, I find the Sphere of R. is better vs. Tog... Hrmmm.

@RavenFire - You are right... I was in a hurry and made 2 big Play Errors.... "Chalice for 2, Chalice for 1", and then the next game Turn 2 Mindslaver instead of Chalice for 2.... Live and Learn, I guess.