Different decks, same Masks

[Jamino]

Well, there has been some posts here and there on the different forms of mask. All of which seem to derive here and there saying something about the other deck its advantages to it its cons to it ect... so I decided to put an end to the problem and start a whole topic deovted to disscussing, or more like stating your opinion on which Splash/Deck you think is the most worth it out of these choices:

UG Vengeur Masque
UGW Vengeur Masque
UGB Vengeur Masque
Mono Black Spoils Mask

What I would like to start off the thread with is a few opinions with a reasoning behind there choices.
Also, I know that some people are using Tutors, some are not.
What are the changes from your build do the ones (same type) under:


UG VENGEUR MASQUE
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Saphire
4x Illusionary Mask
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Brainstorm
1x Ancestral Recall
4x Force of Will
1x Xantid Swarm
1x Timewalk
1x Tradewind Rider
1x Phage the Untouchable
3x Volraths Shapeshifter
4x Birds of Paradise
1x Nantuko Vigilante
2x Quirion Ranger
4x Survival of the Fittest
3x Wall of Roots
1x Voidmage Apprentice
1x Squee Goblin Nabob
2x Flooded Strand
4x Forest
4x Island
4x Tropical Island
2x Windsweapt Heath
1x Wooded Foothills


GUB NINJA MASK
4x Survival of the Fittest
4x Volrath's Shapeshifter
4x Illusionary Mask

4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
1x Phage the Untouchable
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob
1x Gigapede
1x Psychatog

3x Birds of Paradise
3x Quirion Ranger
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Sapphire

4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Duress
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk

4x Bayou
4x Tropical Island
2x Forest
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Windswept Heath

UWG VENGEUR MASQUE
1x Devout Witness
1x Enlightened Tutor
2x Swords to Plowshares

4x Birds of Paradise
2x Quirion Ranger
4x Survival of the Fittest
1x Sylvan Library

1x Squee, Goblin Nabob
1x Phage the Untouchable

1x Ancestral Recall
3x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
1x Time Walk
1x Tradewind Rider
1x Voidmage Apprentice
3x Volrath's Shapeshifter

2x Meddling Mage

1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Pearl
4x Illusionary Mask
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought

2x Forest
4x Savannah
4x Tropical Island
2x Windswept Heath
3x Wooded Foothills

SPOILS MASK
15 Swamp
7 SoLoMoxen
4 Dark Ritual
1 Mana Crypt
-27 Mana Sources

4 Dreads
4 Mask
4 Negator
-12 Threats

4 Unmask
4 Duress
4 Hymn
-12 Disruption spells

4 Spoils
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
-7 Tutors

1 Necro
1 Yawg. Will
-2 Broken spells

Here are the decks. Sorry for not remembering where I took everything, it was all from TMD Boards and mostly from Kowals and Clown of Thressorns (sorry if I butchered the name) thread.

Discuss!

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

The Spoils Mask deck is by no means my design...in fact, Smmenen and Team Meandeck created/tweaked it. As for Mask-based decks...it faces too many challenges in the current environment.

1) The deck relies on a "combo" that doesn't win the turn it's cast, and is based around a creature and a near-useless card. Seriously, the decks look great on paper, but simply put, there are WAY too many problematic matchups for the deck. I haven't played vengeur at all, but speaking of spoils mask, about 1/3 of aggro decks can put you in a position where spoils=death (Decks like TnT with pillar and Madness, not to mention the new FCG), and the other aggro decks can disrupt the heck out of you. Null rod hurts the deck like hell and a timely duress can foil your ENTIRE game plan. vs. Combo, it's not spectacular, because now-a-days, even if you disrupt the hell out of them, they only need to play 1 spell to win the game (animate for dragon and a draw7 for draw7.dec). That leaves control decks. I will be the first to say that spoils mask is a HOUSE vs. keeper, but that's really about it. It splits with Tog at best (as spoils will often leave you at 12 or less life), and a good landstill deck can take a winning percentage.

2) It's based around a creature. An artifact creature. Soooooo many decks can deal with it. From Swords to R&R, decks now have a wide array of weapons to deal with dreadnoughts. Not to mention, it takes 2 attacks to finish an opponent. Decks like FCG and Tog get away with "comboing out" with creatures simply because they win if they get a chance to attack.

3) V. Masque has about the weakest manabase I have every seen. I played a few matches against it, and it was terrible (although I was playing landstill, a probably favorable matchup). Waste a few lands, stifle some more, and fire their birds, and they are SOL. It's not to say it's a bad deck, just that it may want to consider a stronger manabase when in a field full of keeper, landstill, and Workshop-based decks.

I really don't see how V. Masque is much better than, say, TnT. You do get some counters, but with TnT, you get threats along with better, proactive disruption. I would GLADLY take bloodmoons, wastelands, and pillars over a set of forces.

I will admit though, I haven't been testing all that much with mask based decks, as I have put them aside for Dragon and Tog. Anyways, I would love to see mask decks thrive again, as it was my first competitive type 1 deck.

Has anyoner considered FeverMask? I know it sucked in the past with Ankh sligh running rampant (It ran like 7 fetch lands), but ankh sligh is all but dead. It seems like it may work pretty well as it has a plethora of cantrips and cheap counters, as well as GREAT tutors in the form of lim-dul's vault.

-Bob

[Hanzalot]

Clown of Tresserhorn: As you say yourself your experience is with Spoils Mask and not Vengeur Masque. I completely agree with your critizism concerning Spoils Mask (I was so disappointed by that deck). However, Vengeur Masque is a different story and is by far the best deck of the two IMO.

To support this statetement I will focus on the points you raised about Spoils Mask's incapacity to compete and show that Vengeur Masque does not share these:

The deck relies on a "combo" that doesn't win the turn it's cast

It's based around a creature. An artifact creature. Soooooo many decks can deal with it. From Swords to R&R, decks now have a wide array of weapons to deal with dreadnoughts. Not to mention, it takes 2 attacks to finish an opponent. Decks like FCG and Tog get away with "comboing out" with creatures simply because they win if they get a chance to attack

Volrath's Shapeshifter (+ Phage) will win you the game right there and it is not an artifact. It can even win on the turn cast if you are using Lightning Greaves or Anger (in UGr Masque).

V. Masque has about the weakest manabase I have every seen. I played a few matches against it, and it was terrible (although I was playing landstill, a probably favorable matchup).

I don't know why you would say this. It hs BoPs and 2-3 Forest to protect it against Blood Moon and further it has 2-3 Quirion Ranger to protect it from Wasteland. I think your experience is biased by the Landstill matchup because I have never had any serious problems with the mana base of this deck.

I really don't see how V. Masque is much better than, say, TnT. You do get some counters, but with TnT, you get threats along with better, proactive disruption. I would GLADLY take bloodmoons, wastelands, and pillars over a set of forces.

Well, in addition to having FoWs it is better in quite a few ways - to list the ones I can think of now:
1) Ability to win in one turn by shapeshifter + phage.
2) More resilient to artifact hate.
3) Favorable matchup against TnT.
4) Better against Dragon (Due to FoW and a faster kill). Not a good matchup though.

Also, I play 3 Blood Moon in the SB of my current UGr list, so that card is not a reason to choose TnT.

Has anyoner considered FeverMask? I know it sucked in the past with Ankh sligh running rampant (It ran like 7 fetch lands), but ankh sligh is all but dead. It seems like it may work pretty well as it has a plethora of cantrips and cheap counters, as well as GREAT tutors in the form of lim-dul's vault.

I have, since I really liked the list back then. Sadly, I think Finkels are a  tad bit slow these days, so I never got around to really test it. It would be great if you would take on the task, though  

To sum up I definetly think Mask decks in the form of Vengeur Masque is a contender today. While it isn't the "best deck" it can take on pretty much everything and still has the advantage of being "undertested" by many players due to its relatively rare showings.

As regards to splashing in Vengeur Masque, I think it is hard to pick a best color. White gives you an edge against aggro (StP) plus Meddling Mage, black offers good weapons against control (Chains, Duress) as well as graveyard hate (Whittering Wretch) and red gives you Land hate in Blood Moon, artifact hate in Gorilla Shaman and Goblin Welder while also allowing you to play Anger.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

hmmm....I guess my analysis of V. Masque is wrong then. When I played vs. Vengeur, I was always playing control...which may have distorted my view of the deck. It always seemed like spoils mask was the better deck, as it had MAD disruption and a more resilient mana base to control's arsenal of wastelands, stifles, and shamans. In anycase, I think it's safe to say that v. masque and spoils mask are both good in certain metagames. It's just that v. masque seems like it could be more consistent w/ permanent tutors in the form of survival.

As for the splash for v. masque, I REALLY like the black splash. Red gives you a faster win, which is irrelevant, as combo can still race you, and control can still stabalize. The only good thing you get is blood moon, which is an absolute house.

I really can't see the relevance of the white splash. It gives you swords, but honestly, a horde of 12/12's seems just dandy vs. aggro. The devout witness looks kinda random. It could easily be an elvish lyrist or something. That leaves meddling mage. It's been to my experience that meddling mage suchs against everything but combo and some control. But thats because I play in a very very diverse environment.

With the black splash, you get access to Duress, withering wretch, and good tutors. It improves the dragon matchup, as most dragon decks can't deal with a wretchp re-sideboard. Duress is just a house vs. most things out there.

Anyways, I feel like mask SERIOUSLY needs a tune-up. It hasn't done well at all since the new year. I for one would like to see it be a force to be reckoned with. So far, here are the deck designs:

Spoils Mask (get out dreadnought ASAP and disrupt)
V. Masque (Abuse the sh*t out of survival + Mask and just win)
FeverMask (Abuse good, cheap tutors and cantrips to find the combo...then play aggro-control and win)

All of these deck designs have flaws that can't be ignored...
Spoils mask is easily disrupted and simply runs out of gas if the first wave of threats are dealt with.
V. Masque, while good, is a bit slow, baring first turn stupidity.
FeverMask, like most aggro-control decks, has troubles with aggro.

So where does that leave us? Well, I have no idea. I currently testing bizarre deck designs with mask. I have come to the conclusion, though, that lightning greaves NEEDS to be Maindecked. It's just soo good. Anyways, lets get some discussion going!

-Bob

[Hanzalot]

It's just that v. masque seems like it could be more consistent w/ permanent tutors in the form of survival.

It sure is. I don't think I have ever played a more inconsistent deck than Spoils Mask.

Regarding splashes:

I really can't see the relevance of the white splash. It gives you swords, but honestly, a horde of 12/12's seems just dandy vs. aggro.

Swords are also good against Dragon. For this matchup you also gain True Believer, which is a bit hard to cast since it is WW (except under mask) but that is no different than Withered Wretch, which you mention as one of blacks weapons against Dragon.

Playing UGb i have never been too crazy about Duress. Possibly because there are so many other things to drop on turn one (notably BoPs and Rangers). It is however obviously very helpful in a combo heavy field.

On the other hand I simply love the 3 Chains of Mephistopheles in my UGb SB.

Red gives you a faster win, which is irrelevant, as combo can still race you, and control can still stabalize. The only good thing you get is blood moon, which is an absolute house.

Yes, Blood Moon is wicked good. The effect of Anger is nothing to dismiss, though. It might not be that important to make the kill a turn faster but for the minimal investment it takes to put it in the graveyard, it also allows for better (faster) use of the creatures you find via survival as well as a certain surprise element. These elements can be crucial.

I have come to the conclusion, though, that lightning greaves NEEDS to be Maindecked

I play 2 in my UGb build and I'm pretty happy with them so far. Sometimes they are golden and sometimes they are unnescessary gravy, I'm still not completely sure that the matchups they are golden in are the ones where the deck most needs it, and likewise that they are of lesser use in matchups where you should have an advantage either way, but I'm leaning towards this conclusion.
(actually my main concern is that my Dreadnoughts will look somewhat out of place wearing those damn fancy lightning boots   )

In fact I'm switching between the UGr, UGb and UGw at the moment but so far I haven't been able to pick a superior combination nor am I expecting to. IMO it just depends on what you expect to face.

Anyways, I feel like mask SERIOUSLY needs a tune-up.

I think Carl has been working on something, but I don't know how succesful he has been.

[Kowal]

The survival based archetype is very much reliant on getting the most out of each turn.  That's the reason even in splash black, tutors are kind of unnecessary.  Take Demonic for example.  You should have mulliganed if your opening hand didn't have something that costs two at sorcery speed that's just better.  All Demonic will do is slow you down a turn, and as an already slow deck, that's a drawback you don't want to deal with.

I use the same argument for lightning greaves.  When you're showing two mana, there's something else you'd rather be using it for.  While I appreciate how much it could be worth, more often than not it's a two cost sorcery speed item that would much rather be a Survival or a Mask.  And as for the untargetability, that's what Gigapede is for.  The situation in which you need to protect your early dreadnought and in which you'd find this two of AND you have the mana to do it all without slowing your game to a crawl are far too uncommon to warrant running Graves, in my opinion.

[SquirrelToken]

I have been testing this Mask deck for a little while, and it does the trick fine for me.

Combo: (8/8)
4 Illusionary Mask
4 Phyrexian Dreadnaught

Creatures: (4/12)
2 Hypnotic Specter
2 Shadowmage Infiltrator

Black Spells: (16/28)
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Duress
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Necropotence
3 Spoils of the Vault
2 Unmask
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's will

Blue Spells: (2/30)
1 Ancesstral Recall
1 Time Walk

Multicolored Spells: (4/34)
4 Lim-Dul's Vault

Mana-Base: (26/60)
1 Black Lotus
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Dark Ritual
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Sol Ring
1 Strip Mine
2 Swamp
3 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Polluted Delta
1 Island

Sidebaord: (15/15)
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Void
2 Hymn
1 Unmask

I thought I would start off my first post with a deck.  :)

[Vood]

I've been playing vengeur mask [masqué, please] for a while, and even if the mana base looks shaky, I never really had problem playing against wastelands.
I only needs 3 mana to be fully operationnal and 3 quirion ranger usually helps in saving the lands.

Sylvan safekeeper has been added to maindeck for its ability to protect dreadnoughts and also save us against price of progress.

As for splashing a color, black is a must for duress.

I've just thought of a completely new tech against the tog matchup for my vengeur build, can't wait to test it out  

[Xhad]

Regarding the list with 4 Lim-Dul's and 3 Spoils: Does it bother you that you're running 7 cards that read "If your opponent Mindslavers, you die"?

EDIT: Actually, since there's also a Necropotence, that makes 8.

[bebe]

Wayne Oickle's Mask deck from Ontario vintage ripped through a field of over 60 competitors. It definately worth looking at as it puts a whole new spin on the arch type. This deck can be tweaked to fit a variety of metas but performed well in a very wacky one.  


1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
2 Intuition
2 Brainstorm

4 Goblin Welder

3 Duress
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoths Will

4 Illusionary Mask
4 Juggernaut
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Triskellion
1 Duplicant
1 Platinum Angel
1 Solemn Simalcrum
1 Memory Jar

1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
4 Mishra^Òs Workshop
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstain Mire
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

sb:
3 Overload
2 Rack and Ruin
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Darksteel Forge
2 Stifle
2 Misdirection
1 Gilded Drake
1 Fire/Ice
1 Viashino Heretic

[BreathWeapon]

IMO, ESG is under utilized in Vengeur.

[SquirrelToken]

Regarding the list with 4 Lim-Dul's and 3 Spoils: Does it bother you that you're running 7 cards that read "If your opponent Mindslavers, you die"?

EDIT: Actually, since there's also a Necropotence, that makes 8.

I S/B enough of those out when I see Mindslavers.

[carl]

IMO, ESG is under utilized in Vengeur.

As far as I can tell, ESG is bad.

[Triple_S]

I don't see where ESG would really fit into V Masque at all.  If I want acceleration, i want it to be permanent based, particularly with decks such as Stax around.  The key for V Masque to beat Stax is to get a high permanent count on the table and to keep the Trinisphere out of play.  Instead of ESG, I prefer using Wall of Roots since it can provide mana even when tapped down to a Tangle Wire.

I've been running a Demonic Tutor in my u/g/b version for a while now and it was served itself well, mostly fetching either a Mask or a Survival when needed.  I can see ditching it though (and may ditch it for an additional blue creature) since the deck is rather redundant.

[cssamerican]

I have to agree with Carl; ESG is about worthless in this deck.

Withered Wretch is a poor choice against Dragon decks because it is slow and requires you to leave mana open, something you really do not want to do when your trying to maximize your turns. Ground Seal is the better tech against Dragon, and it works great in matches against Welder based decks as well.

All you doubters, there is a reason Vengeur Masqué was in the top 8 at last years GenCon Tournament. Was it because it is it the best deck? No. Was it because it is it impossible to hose? Yes. And that is what makes it a great deck especially in a large tournament when you will see just about every hose card imaginable. Vengeur Masqué is like a cockroach no matter what happens you can't kill it, I guess you could say it is a deck that is metagamed for a field of decks that depend largely on hosing cards.

Edit: And it is extremely fun to play, nothing is funier than putting a Bird of Paradise in play face down, and watching your opponent curse and panic. I even had an opponent scoop one time to a face down BOP, that was one of my funniest MTG moments