Hinder Box - Artifact

[Rando]

Either of the two sugested changes would render this card worthless.  No one would play it, and then what would be the point?

I would rather see this thread closed then see my card gutted into something unplayable.  What's the use of crowding up our master list with worthless chaff?

I think you all are being reactionary, to the extreem.  Has anyone even playtested a workshop deck with this?  If so, which of the other, arguably better, lock componants did you remove?

Was it tested in Extended or Type II?  I seriously doubt it's a game breaker there, either.

If you were to get this out on turn 1 with a workshop, how is that different then a first trun Trinisphere?  Trinisphere nets you about the same amount of virtual "Time Walks" and is much better in the long-run.  Plus, this has built-in protection from Welder abuse.

It is simply NOT as powerful as you all think.  No how, no way.

[Jacob Orlove]

I honestly think it's kind of weak at 4 counters for 4 mana, but I'm fine with that level.

[Frappie]

i think that one of the key problems is the ability for this to stick around until you need. The card however not powerful/powerful is, is still a counter at the heart of it. Timing is the most important function to a counterspell. Almost every counterspell requires perfect timing, there for if this cards counters were changed to Fading 4 the problem of the card would nullify itself faster then if it had charge counters. I understand that you wanted to throw in Core Tapper and Voltaic Construct just to abuse the ability to force spike alot, but it ain't cool.

[Matt]

That's true - what if it were more like Hesitation and less like Disruptive Student?

Name
4
Artifact
~this~ comes into play with four charge counters on it.
Whenever an opponent plays a spell, remove X+1 charge counters from ~this~. Counter that spell unless any player pays {1}.

With that version, an opponent has some decision over what spells get countered. I think this weakens it enough that the anti-Welder clause isn't needed.

[GerryMander]

If you didn't have a choice as to when you could use the counters, then it would be fine.

[Ocifer]

I beleive even I could agree to that...

[stijndon]

I honestly think it's kind of weak at 4 counters for 4 mana, but I'm fine with that level.

Well, I agree with this above quote here. Yes, it's strong on turn one. So is a Juggernaut.

So is Nevinyrral's Disk. Because they cannot play anything as long as the disk is on the table, because it will get blown up - Or because it will get countered? What's the difference? No one really thinks that disk on turn one is broken. Now this might be better, but still not broken.

Van Stijn

[ChowdaCup]

for all who are arguing that artifacts cant counter spells....

Null Brooch

[Rando]

It's been something like two months since I first posted this card.  

I hereby offer it again for reconsideration.  I am still of the opinion that it is just fine in it's curent incarnation.  Since the initial arguments are long dead, I thught I'd bring it back up.

[GerryMander]

ok, I will let this go if A.)  You remove the clunky remove this from the game text and just made it:  "When Hinder Box comes into play, if you played it from your hand etc." and B.)  Made it 3 counters instead of 4.


And for reference ChowdaCup if you still go here:  Null Brooch had a big drawback and only countered noncreature spells.

[Rando]

I agree to those terms.  Changes made.

[GerryMander]

ok, I am fine wit dis

[walkingdude]

If the only way this is going to get made is with the “if you played it from you handâ€? clause then go with it. But it strikes me that you could remove it, let welder recur this to your hearts content and it still would not be good or dangerous in any format. Type 2 and extended don’t have the mana acceleration they used to, which means that by the time this is down your already in a lot of pain if you are control and there is minimal risk of this slipping under a counter wall if you are aggro.  In type one, there are enough better things to do with 4 mana on turn 1 that you could fill a deck with them. I seriously think this is a card that people have taken an irrational principled dislike to rather than looking at the strength levels of any of the actual formats wizards supports.

[Ocifer]

No way. I still completely disagree with this card unless there is no choice as to which spells to counter. In it's current incarnation, this is too powerful and can be used on the same spell all three times.
The initial arguments against this card have NOT been dropped. I can't let this card through until it is a forced counter and can only be used once per spell. Period.

[Matt]

This card is already unplayably slow in every format that doesn't have Workshop, and those formats can honestly deal with this. T1/1.5 lived through Trinisphere, they can handle this.

[GerryMander]

what if Hinder Box had this ability

Remove any number of charge counters from Hinder Box, :  Counter target spell unless
its controller pays , where is the number of charge counters you removed from Hinder Box in this way.

[Sheera]

I liked Matt's suggestion from the previous page alot. Although I think, just removing X charge counters (instead of X+1) would do a cleaner job, the triggered ability solves all problems just fine.

[Matt]

What if we gave this Sunburst? That would be wicked cool.

[Ephraim]

If you give it Sunburst, could it have the ability:

Remove a charge counter from Hinder Box: counter target spell unless its controller pays , where X is the number of charge counters on Hinder Box.

Yes, this is considerably better in some ways that earlier editions of this card, but it offers a greater reward for playing with more colours and the last counter on the card is then pretty worthless. Hinder Box with 4 counters on it could force a payment of (3 + 2 + 1 = 6), but that would require playing with four colours of mana. Yes, it is a strong interaction with Coretapper and Power Conduit, but I doubt it's anything more than a casual combo with those. If anything were going to break those two wide open, it would be Darksteel Reactor, and I haven't seen that happen yet.

[GerryMander]

Hurray for Fifth Dawn!

I totally agree with the Sunburst idea!

[Rando]

Sunburst is cool.  It would also negate any Workshop fears.

Card edited to reflect change.

Does anyone still have an objection?

[Jacob Orlove]

I'm glad we waited; this is excellent now.

[Rando]

24 hour clock / last call for objections.

[Matt]

Is this name really good enough?

[Rando]

I'm open to sugestions, but even in this form it beats the names  Trogdor Torchbreath and Stormy Twister, both of which are in "the set".

[rvs]

As far as Trogdor is concerned, that will never be in any set
I will fight until my ISP dies!

Stormy Twister is my unimaginative mind at work, and at the time, I told people I would like to see another name, but noone came up with one. Since that's the case here, I'd say it's fine.

[Rando]

Hmmmmm...

On the flavor text for an artifact card I made a while back (echo collector), I quoted an Eliaster, Metaphysical Engineer.

How about Eliaster's something or other?  I sort of concieved the character as an artifact maker.

Hinder Box does sound sort of queer. (no, not queer in a gay way).

[rvs]

something can sound queer in another way?

Enlighten me Rando!

[Rando]

haha

[Matt]

You'll notice that the Trogdor card has been purged from our master list. Stormy Twister still haunts us, though.