How popular is Type 0?

[gashole]

[I apologize if this is a well-treaded topic, searching for "type 0" grabs both words and not the phrase, so it's not very helpful.]

Awhile back on the old boards, I had posited the question of developing a Type 0 deck for a silly shop tournament. I had even written in to Rakso and got his feedback, which he later published in one of this articles on tempo. Obviously what I was given was a highly ludicrous Academy Desire deck which elicits naughty thoughts in all but the most chaste of Magic players.

So I guess my question is: are there actually different archtypes in the format, or does Desire just pwn all? Are there some collected decklists around? Does anybody care?

[Jacob Orlove]

Actually, there's been some discussion on what is basically budget type 0 (all expensive cards are banned), and a number of people think that GAT may be the best deck. I tried a long-esque build, but in goldfishing it was just too vulnerable to a single Force of Will. Thus, I came up with the following:

4 Gush
4 Dark Ritual
4 Fastbond
4 Demonic Consultation
4 Demonic Tutor
4 Mana Crypt
4 Mind's Desire
3 Burning Wish
3 Yawgmoth's Will
3 Windfall
4 Force of Will
3 Foil/Misdirection/Daze/Duress
4 Lotus Petal
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

SB:
1 Will
1 Tendrils
1 Windfall
1 Living Wish
1 Dryad
1 Tog
1 Xantid Swarm
(8 irrelevant)

It's tons of fun to goldfish, too.

Obviously, if budget isn't an issue, the only question is what build of Academy-Desire is the best.

[jpmeyer]

It's pretty dumb since whoever wins the flip wins the match.

[gashole]

Maybe Type 0 shouldn't be about actual duels, since it really does hinge on the coin flip (barring a lucky FoW). Instead, what about a way of rating the efficiency of a list? For example, how resilient it is to a FoW... After 100 goldfishes, Jacob's build comes back from FoW 85% of the time, but mine is only 78%. I don't know. This way it would be more of a theoretical exercise (like 3CB) than an actual game.

It's pretty obvious that there IS a way of rating decks, we just don't have a way of quantifying it yet. Imagine a Type 0 decklist before Scourge, and then seeing decklists with Desire/Tendrils... obviously that's a better mechanism, which became the standard. There's some kind of Coefficient of Goodness there. Or maybe I need to read less math books and kiss more girls.

[Dr. Sylvan]

I think I'm developing a hatred for even the concept of Type Zero. It's not even *possible* for it to be fun if you're thinking remotely competitively. There doesn't need to be a debate about what build is best, because even a half-retarded monkey's decklist will win first turn, and you'll still have room for the small complement of FoWs that give you an off chance of winning going second. So tuning would be purely academic.

Type One is already pushing the limits of fair play, T0 is just utterly pointless.

[rvs]

However, as a theorethical exersize it is rather interesting to try and find factors to compute and absolute best deck (In other words: make sure the numbers don't lie). I totally suck at Math, or I'd give it a go.

It's sort of like computing 3CB (which I've done in the past), or that slowest possible kill with optimal play thread Thorme once started. That was interesting stuff.

[mouth]

Unrestricted Tinker makes me weep.

If you tagged on some extra constraints to the decks, like a maximum of 4 non-creature, non-land cards per deck, it could be fun. Then my Arcbound deck could thrive...  

Of course, everyone would just play some odd Kobold combo deck... or a Tinker-Bosh bastardization... ignore me.

[Matt]

They should make it "five cards from every legal expansion". That would be cool.

[rvs]

They should make it "five cards from every legal expansion". That would be cool.

Time for a legendesque tourney?

[Matt]

Nah, there's WAY too many viable decks. It would make a sweet side event at a big tournament like Waterbury or Gencon or something, though.

[rvs]

hmmm you'd have to omit the basic sets though I think. Otherwise you get 5 from alpha, beta, unl... which sort of seems to make the format less interesting.

[Matt]

Not really. Just make it 5 from Unlimited and base sets after that don't matter (except for Portal cards).

[Dr. Sylvan]

They should make it "five cards from every legal expansion". That would be cool.

These would be very large decks, then?

I can't remember if five-color has a rule about expansions, or just colors.

[Matt]

They would be 160 card minimum, up to Darksteel. Not THAT big.

5Color doesn't care about sets, only colors.

[gashole]

However, as a theorethical exersize it is rather interesting [...] It's sort of like computing 3CB (which I've done in the past), or that slowest possible kill with optimal play thread Thorme once started. That was interesting stuff.

This is exactly where I'm going with this. Although I have no idea how to begin coming up with a method of rating yet. But if it helps discussion, this is a list that VideoGameBoy (I think) had posted on the old boards.

Broken Mana:
4 Black Lotus
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mana Crypt
4 Mox Jet
4 Mox Sapphire
4 Tolarian Academy

Broken Search:
4 Demonic Consultation
4 Demonic Tutor

Broken Engine:
4 Mind's Desire
4 Tendrils of Agony

Broken Broken:
4 Ancestral Recall
4 Timetwister
4 Yawgmoth's Will

[hispls]

When I first started playing in Florida, We played type 0 if you own them you can play 4 of them.  The only restriction was no ante cards (though a lot of guys there played ante games) or chaos orb (some wierd theory by the store owner about people who were crippled couldn't play it or something)  It was great then, you never knew what was going to win from week to week, and the people with all the power didn't always go home winning.  

I also played it a couple years ago where the rules were no power 9.  It also was very intesting, and different stuff won every week.  I haven't had the opportunity to play letely but I'd love to find a groupl that does.  Other fun formats are all commons, or all uncommons.  This sort of thing gets people thinking rather than net decking.  

People who think that it's a coin flip format are much mistaken.  Magic is like rock/paper/scisors, and if someone wins with  rock this week, there will be a lot of paper next week.  There are pretty much checks and balances in the game that keep it fresh and unexpected.  

At the high point of my type 0 playing, I owned multiples of most power cards (3 lotus') and I enjoyed coming up with really wild deck ideas that wouldn't otherwise be feasible.  If the same person wins every week no one will show up anymore, so you show up with stuff that's fun.  Winning based on a coin flip isn't fun.  Winning with a deck that uses psychic vortex as a draw engine is fun...even if you only win a few.

[gashole]

While hispls has some valid points about playing the format for fun, I was trying to lean towards a discussion about how to rate (and define the ratings) of Type 0 decks. You know, statistical stuff. I also think it's a worthwhile exercise for any Type 1 (or the other verboten formats) player because anything we'd come up with for this could be applied to Type 1 as well. You often hear how soon a deck goldfishes... well this is along those same lines, only I'm trying to come up with more concrete mathematics.

[Fastbond]

The best deck I could come up with:

4 Black Lotus
4 Blacker Lotus
4 Lotus Petal
4 Contract from Below
4 Ancestral Recall
4 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Mox Sapphire
4 Mox Jet
4 Tolarian Academy
4 Crop Rotation
4 Brain Freeze
4 Force of Will
4 Timetwister
4 Brainstorm
4 Wheel of Fortune

A more controlling metagamed Deck:

Control:
4 Force of Will
4 Misdirection
4 Foil
4 Chalice of the Void

Mana:
16 Islands

Utility:

4 Serum Powder

Draw:
4 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Opt
4 Gush

Kill:
4 Rootwater Thief

Sideboard:
2 Gaea's Blessing
4 Guerilla Tactics
4 Mangara's Blessing
4 Psychich Purge
1 Daze


I think decks like the second would be better overall and would help make  the format interesting.

I think the metagame would be combo(no FOW), combo control(FOW), control(FOW, Misdirection, and Foil).

[Necrologia]

As far as I know even Type 0 bans ante and unglued cards. It's also worth noting that Brainfreeze is strickly inferior to Tendrils as the kill in a deck that runs so much mana.

The second deck will never, ever win in this format. Your 'win' will take at least 4 turns to remove the opponent's win conditions, and no amount of counters will let a deck last that long in Type 0. Chalice for 0 will buy you lots of time, but you're going to need something better to back it up with than a 1/2 beater that ties your mana up.

[Fastbond]

The second deck will never, ever win in this format. Your 'win' will take at least 4 turns to remove the opponent's win conditions, and no amount of counters will let a deck last that long in Type 0. Chalice for 0 will buy you lots of time, but you're going to need something better to back it up with than a 1/2 beater that ties your mana up.

Most decks won't use a non academy land.  I can't think of an optimal deck that I'd play that would not scoop to chalice for zero.  Can you think of a consistent first turn kill deck that wouldn't scoop?

[gashole]

I'm fairly sure the deck I posted would win, if it went first. If you're really playing games with these, it's almost always going to come down to a coin flip. I suppose if you really wanted to play actual games of Type 0, you could consider all 0-casting cost spells banned. That might make it reasonably interactive.

This is why I was trying to approach it from a theoretical, analytical standpoint rather than making decks to play against each other. To start, I tried making the most consistent first-turn kill deck I could with the Limited (as in Alpha/Beta) card pool. Then I added each set in order of its release to the card pool and made the deck that way. I only managed to do a couple sets before bright, shiny objects distracted me, but you can see the direction I was headed. Once we can see how this deck changes as the card pool grows, we can start to compare the differences and maybe come up with a way to quantitate them.

And yes, for my purposes I'm considering all ante, dexterity, Unglued, and soon to be Unhinged cards banned.

[Fastbond]

I think my mono-blue deck that I posted could beat Vidogameboy's deck.  There's not that many spells to counter.  There's not enough start winning cards(ancestral+timetwister) and too many keep winning cards(mind's desire, yawg's will, etc).  There's no reason to run tutors in a combo deck and for that reason alone it is subotimal.  My point was that decks like my mono-blue deck would make the game more interesting and interactive.  And there's also a bunch of different possible combos you could use.  I mean you can easily get six mana on the first turn which can open up a lot of possibilities.

[Fistandantilus]

Ah, just the thread I was looking for.  In my casual circle, we play without any restrictions except that you can't play with unglued cards.

In my metagame, everyone is a budget player.  REALLY budget.  I mean, no dual lands or fetch lands.  We're all essentially a bunch of noobs.  What I would really like to hear people's opinions on is, what deck would you bring to my metagame?  I'd like to hear about decks that abuse the lack of restrictions but have no cards that would cost as much as or more than a fetchland.  "Extremely Budget Type 0" decks.

In a way, I'd like to teach my casual circle a lesson on why there needs to be restrictions.  I think that there are several restricted cards that are relatively inexpensive.  One question is, are they still powerful in an extremely budget environment?

So, any contributions?  About the best deck I've come up with so far (that meets the above criteria) is a variation of the "Easter Tendrils" deck posted in the budget forum.  I don't know, maybe this should be its own thread.

[gashole]

Actually, that's how my interest in Type 0 began. A local shop was holding unrestricted tournaments, and kids with really bad Elf decks were winning. I had sent Rakso an email asking for help, and I eventually posted here for help. Jacob Orlove eventually proposed probably the best super-budget Type 0 deck...

4x Dark Ritual
4x Mind's Desire
4x Tendrils of Agony (4 because of consults)
4x Demonic Consultation
4x Yawgmoth's Will
4x Demonic Tutor
4x Meditate
4x Sol Ring
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
4x Mana Vault
4x Tolarian Academy
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Underground Sea
4x Open slots

The open slots would probably be either Cabal Therapy or Duress.

This is going to win turn 1 a lot more often than Necro will, and Storm is just stupid.

Underground Sea may be pushing the limits of what you call budget, but if you ever want to play any real Vintage you may as well get them now. I suppose you could just cut them for any Glimmervoids or City of Brasses you have laying around if it gets to that point.

I think you could probably also do an unrestricted DARgon deck that would be pretty nutty, but I'm not familiar enough with it to propose a decklist.

[Ezechiel]

Regarding deck ranking, I am investigating the use of ELO system to rank deck and not people. It requires some hypothesis, but it is feasible and it shows some promising results. The only issue - but it is a big one -is getting results match by match and not only the top 8.

At the end, you end up with a ranking giving you the best "overall" deck. Of course, like all mathematic-based solution, it requires a certain amount of data to give a good representation of the meta-game.

Ezechiel