[Deck Discussion] Meandeck Slaver

[Mith]

Here's a link to Steven's post in the type 1 forum for reference:

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15814

The decklist:
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Gilded Lotus
1 Memnarch
1 Memory Jar
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
3 Mindslaver
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Pentavus
1 Triskelion
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
4 Goblin Welder
1 Wheel of Fortune

Lands:
2 Ancient Tomb
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Shivan Reef
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Volcanic Island
 
I agree that this direction is where workshop slaver needs to go. So far the two versions (control and slaver) have been posting pretty decent results...and while originally I personally prefered the "control" playstyle of having Mana Drains, Worshop (and more importantly Chalice) NEEDS to be abused in this deck.

My main issues with the Workshop version have been that, when you get a good draw, you can explode and just win....but when you draw crap, don't draw Thirsts, or have them countered...the deck runs out of steam fast. Brainstom solves these issues...and helps you get what you need when you need it (not to mention being able to cover your FoWs earlier on...I hate pitching Thirsts). I played Workshop Slaver at Gamemaster's on Saturday...and lost two early matches due to not drawing into a single Slaver, or even a Tinker to fetch one. Again, Brainstorm would have alleviated this issue considerably.

The other aspect of this build that needs to be discussed is Memnarch. I messed around with him early on...and he was AMAZING. Grabbing a huge dryad, opposing welders, togs, a library...all solid and game winning. My only contention with him is his mana intensity sometimes gets in the way. However, he really is a great card against a LOT of control matches. The room in this deck is getting very tight, so I'd certainly like to hear some discussion regarding this guy and his spot in the deck. Should this deck become widely played (and it should with the 10-proxy rule allowing people to play without actually owning Workshops), then this guy could be gold in the mirror match. I really like Karn (who's missing from Steven's list)...I've won quite a few games with a beatdown from animated Gilded Lotuses

Finally, the sideboard. Trinisphere is a great addition if combo is rampant in your area. Bloodmoon can also be of considerable help. I personally run Tiskelion maindeck over Fire/Ice, but I've kept one in the board as a wish target...and it's worked quite well to pick off opposing welders. I personally love having a Chain of Vapor in the board to wish for...it is a win-condition after having Slavered your opponent, and is great for bouncing Ground Seals. I also like Tormod's in the board, but it can be very unnecessary depending on your metagame.

Anyways, lets get this discussion started

[JuJu]

A few things, I like the looks of the inclusion of Brainstorm but it seems to go against how broken a Slaver is traditionally supposed to be, does the game plan change at all with Brainstorms added now? I will have to test and bring back my findings. Also, has Meandeck tested a couple of Future Sights maindeck? Most people say it costs too much (5 non-workshop mana, 3 of which being blue) but usually those are the people who have not tested them. Wasp, who I talk to sometimes seems to agree with me on the brokeness of Future Sight and he has tested it alot. I'd like to know Meandeck's opinion on this. Also, is the inclusion of black worthless now, with Brainstorms being the extra draw Slaver needed, is the D-Tutor and Yawgmoth's win all but worthless, along with butchering the mana base? Another thing, what's your opinion on the Shivan Reef vs Polluted Delta issue, this one is very hard for me as both have there merits. I like the Trisk maindeck, taking care of shamans, man-lands, fishies and other small annoyances, not to mention being infinitely recurrable with Pentavus, in my build however I also run Platinum Angel, which is very good in the Aggro matchups. I hope Meandeck people(mostly Toad, Steve and Kevin) can answer these question for me. Thx!

I had to delete my thread I posted just after Mith(that tricky bastard) so this was just copied from my post

[Smmenen]

This is the reason that Brainstorm is counter-intuitive.  I hope Vegeta reads this to understand why it was an important innovation.  I didn't expect it to work, but I tried it anyway becuase I was merely curious.

Once you play with Brainstorm enough, you might want to keep Brainstorm over thirst (depending on the situation) Brainstorm is that good.

The other aspect of this build that needs to be discussed is Memnarch. I messed around with him early on...and he was AMAZING. Grabbing a huge dryad, opposing welders, togs, a library...all solid and game winning. My only contention with him is his mana intensity sometimes gets in the way. However, he really is a great card against a LOT of control matches. The room in this deck is getting very tight, so I'd certainly like to hear some discussion regarding this guy and his spot in the deck. Should this deck become widely played (and it should with the 10-proxy rule allowing people to play without actually owning Workshops), then this guy could be gold in the mirror match. I really like Karn (who's missing from Steven's list)...I've won quite a few games with a beatdown from animated Gilded Lotuses

The main problem with karn is this: Part of the reason for the large men is beatdown when matrix or null rod is in play - Karn is a 0/8.  That is a SERIOUS problem.  The final straw was that I rarely, if ever, actually activated a Gilded Lotus in play becuase the deck is so mana hungry.

Finally, the sideboard. Trinisphere is a great addition if combo is rampant in your area. Bloodmoon can also be of considerable help. I personally run Tiskelion maindeck over Fire/Ice, but I've kept one in the board as a wish target...and it's worked quite well to pick off opposing welders. I personally love having a Chain of Vapor in the board to wish for...it is a win-condition after having Slavered your opponent, and is great for bouncing Ground Seals. I also like Tormod's in the board, but it can be very unnecessary depending on your metagame.

Anyways, lets get this discussion started

If you want Chain of Vapor, then you can still run the Wishes in place of Fact or Fiction and Trike.  

Steve Menendian

[Mith]

FoF and Trike have held their weight in the deck...I'd be very hesitant to drop then for wishes. Still, wishing for a Rack and Ruin or a Fire/Ice can be game-breaking (not to mention my MVP Chains of Vapor) This build is directed at maximizing the abuse of Workshop...and to be honest, Wishes sit in my hand as dead weight too often. I really don't think I'm going to miss them.

That second Trike in the board is a good thought...having two would be solid against certain matchups. Welding Trike into Trike is one of my favorites

Tormod's Crypt is a card I'll contend...this deck just doesn't have ways to stop fast Dragon decks...and graveyard hate is a must. My older version with Wishes had Stifle in the board for possible situations (not that it really pulled its weight)...but this version needs something as well. Chalice is good, and Trinisphere will help, but a first-turn Crypt is golden.

Sigh, I just wish this deck had more room...

[CHA1N5]

Future Sight:  
- UUU basically relegates this card to post-Gilded, which makes it situational.
- The very high average CMC of the deck + FOW means you can't usually get through very many cards.  We haven't tested again since Brainstorm however, which would help.
- Mind's Eye is much easier to cast and use, but it doesn't provide as much power.  It didn't make the cut.

Black:  Doesn't butcher the manabase as much as you might think, but the manabase is the weakest link in the worst matchups, so the addition of black doesn't help where you need it to.

Reef vs. Fetch:  You can see from my list that I am in favor of at least a few fetchlands.  Pain from the Reefs and Ancient Tombs is an important problem for the mana base and I like to measure that with a few fetch.  Having a high land count is important for the worst matchups (see previous paragraph) and 3 fetch for 4 duals is problematic, so 2 fetch is the maximum.

Platinum Angel:  Is simply overkill in matchups that one of Trike/Pent/Smmenarch should win.

Trinisphere:  pwns combo and bad aggro.  It can pwn Dragon if you're playing, but you have to rely on Blood Moon when drawing.  Keep in mind, also, that Dragon is not much of a consideration in our local metagame.

[Wollblad]

I really likes this deck, but I have some thoughts. First, I look at the deck and sees 3 Guilded Lotus, Grim Monolith and Mana Vault. Would anyone care for Voltaic Key? If it was to replace for example a Sheavan Reef, would that make the deck too vulnerable  to Null Rod and leave the deck with too little coloured mana? Speaking of Null Rod leads me to the next issue. I would never dare to cut Cunning Wish in a deck like this. Out Trike and something more for at least two Cunning Wish. That woul let you play not Chain of Vapour (since it can bounce your own Welders) but Echoing Truth and of course Fire/Ice and Rack and Ruin.

[BreathWeapon]

Oh, who called Trinisphere in Slavery? Ya, I believe that was me ... boo yaa

As far as Brainstorm goes, I like the added FoW count and all ... but i'm still a little speculative. I thought the addition of MD bombs like Blood Moon/Trinisphere were there to alleviate the randomness issues?

No Crypts=Huge Ballz, and all hail decks that get PWNed by Fish

[Rico Suave]

Speaking of Null Rod leads me to the next issue. I would never dare to cut Cunning Wish in a deck like this. Out Trike and something more for at least two Cunning Wish.

Well, in many ways Trike will handle most of the problems that Cunning Wish would deal with, but it would do so by actually winning as opposed to just dealing with a threat.  

Many decks that use Null Rod can't deal with a fattie like Trike.

[CHA1N5]

Many decks that use Null Rod can't deal with a fattie like Trike.

Fortunately, Cinnamon started, like, 58.7 threads on the subject (he certainly has passion)... but this is really the bottom line on Null Rod at the moment:  fatties destroy the decks that play it.

[dicemanx]

Null Rod at the moment: fatties destroy the decks that play it.

There are two significant decks that play MD Null Rods: Fish and O.Stompy. Fish is called a bad match-up for Slavery (in one of Steve's threads), but I don't see how fatties can overcome Stompy's creatures. One resolved Ascetic or Mongrel can stop all fatties except for Pentavus. And while Chalice is particularly debilitating against Stompy, I feel that the deck should (after some considerable testing) run 4x Oxidize ahead of Naturalizes and even ahead of Hidden Gibbons or Root Maze. After SBing Ground Seals should shore up the weakness the deck has against Welders.

I'm not suggesting that O.Stompy should crush Slavery, but Stompy does quite well against artifact prison decks, which are usually much more fearsome than Slavery decks.

[kakeboy07]

OKie.

Ive been playtesting slaver for almost 3 weeks and I have to say, so have many other people.

This deck is hardly a Beakthru, however i see points where it differs from other builds which is what I would like to discuss.

Eastman said somehting a while back about running broken cards to see broken things happen, and i fully subscribe to this notion, so keep that in mind when you check out my version of slaver.

Mana base:

2 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
3 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Workshop
5 Moxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring

Extended Mana Base:
4 Metalworker
3 Gilded Lotus

Slavery:

3 Mindslaver
1 Pentavus
1 Platinum Angel
1 Karn, Silver Golem

Draw me cards:

1 Memory Jar
1 Tinker
4 Thirst for knowledge
2 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Wheel of Fortune

Find me stuff:
2 Cunning Wish
1 Mystical Tutor (finds cunning wish too)
1 Demonic Tutor

Bomb:

1 Mind Twist
1 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Goblin Welder

Counters:
4 Force of Will


Sideboard:

1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Stifle
1 Shrapnel Blast
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Fire/Ice
2 Rack and Ruin
2 Blood Moon
1 Memnarch


62
15 sb

-I dont run academy-



I play in a meta with heavy mana denial via wastelands (4 ofs constantly), and plenty of direct damage, which is why memnarch isnt maindecked.

He comes in when im playing a matchup where i think i will be able to establish a solid mana base.

Shrapnel Blast allows me to play as an aggro deck against alot of artifact decks. Gilded lotuses and Slavers make for great finishers, but when theres an exaulted angel or other piece of fat that i really get sick of, blast normally takes care of that.

Edict is in there because i lost 1 game to oath akroma. I played a turn 1 welder, and they played turn 1 oath. I couldnt get rid of my welder, and they snagged akroma. I ended up drawing cunning wish and i had the mana to play edict, but it wasnt in my board at that time. It is now.



Maindeck/Meandeck issues:

I have always played with brainstorm. Drawing 3 cards with any number of fetchlands is always good in my opinion. If nothing else it gives you better odds to find and play an early metalworker (which is what you want).


Cunning wish to answer threats vs. no wishing
Trike. Hes 4/4 which yea is big. However o. Stompy plays 4 Wurms, and isnt hurt by bloodmoon or null rod really at all.  Additionally, you never played against Mask (survival) or ravenger aggro.  How does that matchup play out? I hear that skullclamping and running through most of your deck is some good, especially when your opponent only has 4 cards to stop you from going off early.

Turn 1 ravanger pretty much sucks for you. Especially after they shrapnel blast ur metalworker and fire/ice your welder. Those to fragile points make the landstill matchup that much harder (blood moon is gold).


You already covered what i would suggest:

Quote:

Finally, the sideboard. Trinisphere is a great addition if combo is rampant in your area. Bloodmoon can also be of considerable help. I personally run Tiskelion maindeck over Fire/Ice, but I've kept one in the board as a wish target...and it's worked quite well to pick off opposing welders. I personally love having a Chain of Vapor in the board to wish for...it is a win-condition after having Slavered your opponent, and is great for bouncing Ground Seals. I also like Tormod's in the board, but it can be very unnecessary depending on your metagame.

Anyways, lets get this discussion started  


If you want Chain of Vapor, then you can still run the Wishes in place of Fact or Fiction and Trike.

Steve Menendian

Question #2

How important is Chalice when i play in a meta swarmed by r&r shamman mutations and hull breaches?

I have other cards in their place specifically targeted at an aggro environment (i realize 10 proxy probably wont be as much aggro as other metas); however i fail to see how this deck beats aggro.

Thats what i keep coming back to. Aggro drops a threat or 2 and gets rid of a welder or metalworker. In turn you might get off a slaver and waste a couple of lands, but they're still gonna be in a postition to win???? arent they????




praises

3 slavers is the right # i love it.  Memnarch is god in a mirror match or else against ravanger combo (additionally tog and even some random aggro without null rod), however he sucks against null rod. He absolutely blows 4/5 for 7 and 4/4 for 6 doesnt seem like a good mana curve, especially when rancored wurms run them right over, and then basilisks with rancor run you over.

Force of will is needed (and helps out alot as there is plenty of blue for its support and it can even be hardcast alot of the time via g lotus), however why no black?? have you seen the yag wills this deck can have??? theyre crazy!

Anyways, Congrats on the win, and good luck with the deck. I hope shop hits $200

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Slaver should still have a pretty good game vs. O. Stompy. Think about it. Memnarch and Pentavus stops every single creature in the deck (unless they run Roar) and triskelion is only in trouble if arrogant wurm hits play. If Slaver can counter the null rod, it's in GREAT shape. Slaver only needs to use workshop once to get a gilded lotus. Once a lotus hits, getting mana is pretty easy. Couple that with the fact that Brainstorm, Thirst, Draw7s > survival and maybe bazaar, and that o stompy only runs 3 MD Rods to Slaver's 4 Forces, and O stompy doesn't look all that terrifying. IN FACT, I would dare say Fish is the harder matchup, as Counters/Standstills/and ESPECIALLY Lavamancers are harder to deal with than rootwallas, ascetics, and arrogant wurms.

I'm not saying slaver should crush O stompy, I'm just saying that O stompy shouldn't write off Slaver just because of disruption. Yes, O stompy is a nightmare for Trinistax if the stax player can't get that first turn trinisphere, but when you face down huge fat that isn't hugely impacted by null rod, O stompy is gonna have some problems of it's own.

[CHA1N5]

Two notes about BigO:

1)  We were testing against a version wo/Trolls... because they were weak in other matchups and they were the most non-essential creature.  Clearly, they are a bit of good against Pentavus.  It was our assumption that BigO w/Trolls was weaker in the meta and we didn't need to worry about it.

2)  They don't address Welders in any way, which means that eventually you can get rid of their Null Rod via Wheel or them simply getting stuck in a Bazaar with 2-3 artifacts.  Again, the onus is on them to beat you, not the other way around.  And they need a lot of things to go right for that to turn out in their favor.

[nev]

I feel like the meta is geting some play.

If Slaver has trouble with fish (I'm not saying it does), how could it ever be teir 1? Sure it beats the hell out of a lot of the teir 1 decks, but I'm under the impression that gayer fish is everywhere, and if you lose to it more than 50% of the games, you could be in for a rough ride to the top spot.

So basicly what I'm asking, do slaver win over gayer fish often enough? Well?

[jpmeyer]

I've always found Fish to be much more of a metagame deck

[dicemanx]

) We were testing against a version wo/Trolls... because they were weak in other matchups and they were the most non-essential creature. Clearly, they are a bit of good against Pentavus. It was our assumption that BigO w/Trolls was weaker in the meta and we didn't need to worry about it.

Trolls are pretty strong locally with so much aggro and Landstill around. In fact, Trolls were included to fight against Disks specifically. I noticed many have cut them, but I'm not clear why. They are only weak against decks that man-handle O.Stompy (fast combo and aggro-combo), while improving your match-ups vs control and aggro.
 

2) They don't address Welders in any way, which means that eventually you can get rid of their Null Rod via Wheel or them simply getting stuck in a Bazaar with 2-3 artifacts. Again, the onus is on them to beat you, not the other way around. And they need a lot of things to go right for that to turn out in their favor.

You are right that the onus is on the Stompy player - Stompy has to play beat down (which it can do *quite* well, it's not as slow as people think) while stalling Slaver's mana development. However, we shouldn't overestimate Slaver's ability to bring heavy hitters into play - it's not that easy. Stompy can overrun you before you know it, and it can stifle mana production so that you can't even assemble enough mana to Thirst and Weld stuff. It's tougher for the Stompy player for sure, but he has many resources at his disposal, and Slaving Stompy without going infinite with the Slaver and Welder combo will generally not do very much unless you can nail them with a Bazaar early enough.

Also, Ground Seals can go a long way to stopping Welder action. The only problem is the bottleneck it creates at 2 mana, which is why 4xOxidize is so key (and yet no one is running them).

o stompy only runs 3 MD Rods to Slaver's 4 Forces, and O stompy doesn't look all that terrifying.

O. Stompy should definitely run 4 Rods. Any less than that and you're not playing with the maximum amount of the best available disruption. And yes, the deck doesn't look particularly fearsome, which is why people are quick to dismiss it. However, like fish, O.Stompy is a meta choice. It simply flounders in combo heavy metas, but its quite terrifying vs control and many aggro decks.

[Wollblad]

Regardless of weather Cunning Wish is used or not I have a thought on Memnarch. He, as well as Triskelion, doesn't really fit the deck theme. It is just a in general good card. Is the slavery theme so weak that it needs backup from another effect (big creatures and stealing permanents)? How well does the deck without either Karn nor Memnarch? Welder beatdown and Pentavus works fine IMO.

[rvs]

Memnarch makes stuff welderable. Welders are cool.

[thecapn]

Is the slavery theme so weak that it needs backup from another effect (big creatures and stealing permanents)?

To quote Smmenen - "I own you. I own your turns and your perms."

Regardless of weather Cunning Wish is used or not I have a thought on Memnarch. He, as well as Triskelion, doesn't really fit the deck theme. It is just a in general good card. Is the slavery theme so weak that it needs backup from another effect (big creatures and stealing permanents)? How well does the deck without either Karn nor Memnarch? Welder beatdown and Pentavus works fine IMO.

One of the incredibly strong points about the deck is its ability to to play all the roles in the "Who's the Beatdown?" paradigm.  It's not that the slavery theme is weak, it's that a lot of decks in the format just can't deal with a 4-5/4-5 on turn 1 or 2.  Large creatures are a threat throughout the whole game, particularly for many of the null rod aggro decks and landstill (see the discussion in the main boards).  When they drop null rod, your plan becomes turning guys sideways, and welding them back in if they manage to get killed.  As Kevin noted, Karn is just an 0/8 in this scenario.  Triskelion is also a champ in the landstill and fish matchups, some of the hardest, and he kills opposing welders and gorilla shamans.  Also, the large men route is particularly relevant if you don't have cunning wish for md artifact removal or board control.  Finally, Zvi theorized that decks that can play many roles in the "Who's the Beatdown?" paradigm are the strongest.  Why would you make a deck weaker by reducing it's aggro *and* board control capabilities just to fit a theme?!?!?

[Smash]

What are the shamens for?

[CHA1N5]

What are the shamens for?

$T4KS and the mirror.

[TheFram]

Quick question to the MeanDeckers:

I goldfished Smmenen's Slavery list from the Columbus tourney, and the one card in the deck I found inconsistent, was Mishra's Workshop. I often have FAR too many colored spells in my hand to utilize Workshop well. The only times I enjoy worksop hands is when they lead to turn 1 Gilded Lotus or Memory Jar (which is far less often than I might like).

If you remove Workshop for 2 more Tombs and 2 City of Traitors, does the deck logically move toward control Slavery? I really feel that the workshops are severely limiting to the deck, I actually DONT like seeing them in multiples in some hands. Unlike say STAX, this deck often cannot keep hands without colored mana/mana that can pay for Thirst for Knowledge.

[Smmenen]

That's probably becuase you were playing the deck much differently than we do.  I play to abuse Workshops as much as possible - this means being conscientious of my use of Thirst not to dump things down that I can handily cast.  I rarely drop something important in my GY - the only things I dump are large men, extra lotuses, chalice, or extra Slavers (and excess mana).

Steve

[TheFram]

That still doesnt minimize the number of mulligans caused by lack of colored mana, which seems to be a real consistency issue for the deck. Workshop will clearly lead to broken plays, but it also forces more mulligans than I would like, and were not just talking about hands one could have kept if one were more focused on playing towards a Workshop focus.

[Wollblad]

Why would you make a deck weaker by reducing it's aggro *and* board control capabilities just to fit a theme?!?!?

It is not a question of making the deck weaker. My thoughts were to use these card slots to focus more on getting the Mindslaver/Pentavus/Welder combo going off. Memnarch and Trisk are not of any help to achiev that. In some situations they may just hinder your play. The situation 'I have Memnarch on hand, but I can't afford to play him since Null Rod has hit the table and my Workshops are Wasted' appears now and then. But instead it could have been something that helpes you to remove Null Rod. So I wanted to rais the question fatties or protecting/accelerating the combo? Obviously people seems to go for the fatties.

[Smmenen]

That still doesnt minimize the number of mulligans caused by lack of colored mana, which seems to be a real consistency issue for the deck. Workshop will clearly lead to broken plays, but it also forces more mulligans than I would like, and were not just talking about hands one could have kept if one were more focused on playing towards a Workshop focus.

My experience has been completely oppossite.  Since the addition of Brainstorm, I rarely have to mulligan - probably once every 6 games, if that - and when I do mulligan, for some reason, its really bad and I usually have to go to 5.

Steve

[Rico Suave]

You know, a deck can have multiple avenues of attack.

TnT, for example, uses fat men, Welder, and Survival in an attempt to take the opponent from 20 to 0.  If somebody boards in all creature removal, they will now be vulnerable to Survival of the Fittest and still lose.

In this deck, being too focused on Slaver means you lose to Ground Seal, Null Rod, or other hosers because you're too focused on Slaving them out.  Just like in the previous example, multiple avenues of attack mean you're less likely to run into hoser cards.  

Sometimes it's a bad idea to try and force Slaver through waves of hate.  It is oftentimes better to just turn around and say "deal with this" and in many cases, they can't because they'll have too many narrow cards.  If they prepare for the beatdown option, then now your Slaver route has more breathing room.

[Aeneas]

lose to null rod or ground seal?  this deck can just go into pentavus/smemnarch/triskelion beatdown.  this deck has multiple roads to victory that are not dependant on activating or recurring a Mind Slaver.

EDIT:  at first i thought that Null Rod/Damping Matrix would be my GAT's savior vs this deck.  testing has shown otherwise.  pernicious deed worked rather well, but thats for another forum.

[wizmentor]

Why no glimmervoid?  Seems like 1 or 2 would be a good
replacement for painlands.

[JuJu]

lose to null rod or ground seal?  this deck can just go into pentavus/smemnarch/triskelion beatdown.  this deck has multiple roads to victory that are not dependant on activating or recurring a Mind Slaver.

EDIT:  at first i thought that Null Rod/Damping Matrix would be my GAT's savior vs this deck.  testing has shown otherwise.  pernicious deed worked rather well, but thats for another forum.

All the decks that have Damping Matrix or Null Rod have some sort of artifact removal, I'm not saying Beatdown is bad, just stating that it's not as easy as you would think.