[Article] Many Happy (Diminishing) Returns - Primer On Draw7

[thecapn]

 So Hurkyl's Recall being blue doesn't really alleviate this problem of being color limiting.  Of course, chant doesn't get around this problem since you have to tap a source that would usually be used to create blue to create white.  But saying that Hurkyl's Recall is on color and that Chant is off isn't a fair arguement except for when talking about pitching to FoW.  I actually find Chant nice because it gives me something to do with my mox pearl :p.

Basically to summarize:

but Hurkyl's and Chain of Vapor are more flexible than chant, and again Xantid Swarm is only run main if you're not worried about the other decks.

This is the statement I don't agree with.  Hurkyl's Recall isn't more flexible.  It does nothing vs. control, and is basically in the deck for 4 cards: Null Rod, 3Sphere, Sphere of Resistance, and Chalice.  Just like Swarm is around to deal with just counters.  No one is trying to argue that those cards aren't a real threat to combo decks, I'm simply saying that Chant deals with all of them, and is a better slot for the main deck in a varied metagame where you will meet all kinds of threats.

Hurkyl's being blue does matter because when you cast draw 7 #1 or #2 with say 3-5 mana floating, you don't want one of those mana to be white.  

Regarding Chant's flexibility - while it does stop a player from playing spells while you're going off, it only deals with other threats when you have it in your hand.  Chant simply does not deal with a Null Rod, Trinisphere, Chalice, etc once it's on the board, so I don't think you can argue that it's an effective answer to them.  For this reason I see Chant as counterspell protection that sometimes doubles as a time walk, with the draw back that it requires you to start worrying about white mana.  Hurkyl's Recall and Chain of Vapor always deal with threatening permanents, and double as mana and storm producers utilizing a color that you're likely to already have floating.  If you're afraid of counterspells, side in Xantid Swarm and Tarpan. If not, combo out.

Later,
   Jason

[KrauserKrauser]

This deck makes me cry.

I attended a local tournament today and decided to play Draw7 after testing against Tog a bit and thinking that in my Tog heavy meta it would be as good as deck as any.  All I can say is the deck is good but it just doesn't work for me.  Tonight was just one of those days. Mini-Report:

Match 1: vs. Tog (He wins the roll)

Game 1: First turn Force my Draw7.  Second Turn Drain my other draw7.  Third turn Force my remaining draw.  I then proceed to die.

Game 2: On the play, I should do good right?  I go off for a little bit but end up with a hand of pure butt with a swarm on the table.  I then proceed to get trampled all over by an angry tog.

Match 2: vs. Tog (He wins the roll)

Game 1:  Forces my draw7 and I proceed to die.

Game 2:  Force my 1st turn swarm but I had Yagwill in my hand so wasn't worried.  Second turn proceed to go off for a bit but stall out with a solid hand of  Force, Force, Walk, Wheel, Rit, Vamp, Tendrils thinking that I could kill him on the next turn with ease.  What does he do but Twist me for 4.  I Force, he counters with a Force he had just topdecked.  He proceeds to pull all the cards but the one that I couldn't use, the Tendrils.  Wheeee fun.  I proceed to lose.

Match 3: vs. Froot Loops (Deck abuses skullclamp, draw7's, and ashnod's altar)

(He of course, wins the roll)

Game 1: Force his 1st turn Wheel, Proceed to go off.

Game 2: He kills me with Kaervik's Torch.  I cry.

Game 3:  Ok debateable play mistake here.  I land go for three turns, he blows his wad but stalls out.  I then go mox, double rit for Mind's Desire for four hoping to get something useful.  I get Force, Brainstorm and 2 Returns.  I cast the first returns and end up removing one of my two tendrils, not good.  I then draw absolute crap and the Brainstorm into something a wee bit more passable in a few turns.  I could have cast the other returns but if I did so there would be an even better chance that I would remove that last Tendrils.  I don't know what to do and end up passing turn and eventually getting comboed out.

Woot! Scrub out!

No props/clops for this report, I sucked too much.  No wait, my deck hated me so much.

Someone please give me the will to play this deck more, as this showing has put some serious doubt with me as to its viability.  Or at least teach me how to make it love me more and draw the cards it needs to win.

Note - My friend wanted to do some playtesting against Draw7 with his Tog deck that he was going to take to the double Lotus in DC and I proceeded to 4-1 him without sideboarding, which I think would simply get worse for the Tog player.

[Smmenen]

My most recent list:

"Draw7"
Lands:
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Glimmervoid
1 Underground Sea
1 Tolarian Academy

Acceleration:
1 Fastbond
1 Crop Rotation
4 Dark Ritual
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault

Setting up/Protecting the Combo:
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will (they are Awseom111!!one)
1 Ancestral
1 Time Walk

Draw 7s Extraordinaire:
4 Diminishing Returns
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Windfall
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Timetwister

Borken!!!Pwned!!!
1 Mind's Desire
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Tutors:
1 Vamp Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
(no Mystical or Consult)

Finishers:
2 Tendrils of Agony

Changes:
+ Chrome Mox
The key to this deck is casting a turn one broken spell or a Draw7.  Brainstorm is the card you cast if you have none of those - and this deck would much rather play a Brainstomr after the draw7.  The thing that is key is that you get UU for Returns on turn one - and Chrome Mox facilitates that fabulously.  Additionally, since this is a Draw7 deck you recuop the card advantage very quickly.

* Crop Rotation: This card cannot be SBed out - it is key to casting Returns on turn 1 (and sometimes on turn two).  

No Burning Wish is in the deck anymore becuase in order to steal random wins, its better to just draw Tendrils - and that's why the Dark Rituals are here anyway.

The only negotiable card in the deck, I feel, is LED.  You could run Hurky's or Chain over it if you wanted.

Stephen Menendian

[jazzykat]

I said I was done with this thread but...

@krauser: sorry to hear that. I gave up on the deck a few weeks ago for slaver. I like stealing stuff :B

@steve: thanks for the newest list.  Very balls to the wall might I add, no MD anti control elements. With all the slaver and their f/i I can't blame you. I used swarms(3md +1 board) and orims chants (boarded in) when I scrubbed out in Hadley.

RE: crop rotation: playing against the wall of control I expected I sided it in vs. aggro or combo (didn't see any) but I get nervous about saccing lands in the world of counter spells. It of course is techy to do when they wasteland!

RE: chrome mox, I have used and not used it in my test builds which had MD swarms. I could usually put an extra swarm under it but I felt it was sometimes good, not always.

RE: 4th returns: very interesting choice although try, try, and try again has a new meaning!  Another dangerous spell, I like high threat densities.


RE: chromatic spheres (if anyone still plays them) get rid of them, they are a crutch that I assure you, you don't need.

All in all, I find the deck fun and challenging to play but you have to be pretty good to go off turn 1-3 consistently and when you play against forces and when drain comes online it is nauseatingly tough at times.

[Remco]

@ Steve
Since you are not running Burning Wish anymore, could you explain how this would effect your sideboard? I, for one, don't see much use for a 'boarded Hull Breach if you cannot fetch it with wish. Also, Balance would seem out of place as well, given it's relatively narrow usefulness for the deck and because of the W in the CC. (Or am I missing some tech use for Balance in some match-up or other?)

My guess would be to start with:
4 Xantid Swarm
3 Hurkyl's Recall
2-3 Chain of Vapor
2-3 Oxidize

But what next? I've been looking for good sideboard cards, but can't seem to come up with something worthwile. I've considered Naturalize and Echoing Truth, but neither of those seem to solve anything that cannot otherwise be solved by Hurkyl's Recall or Chain of Vapor. There must be something I'm overlooking, as I cannot imagine having to fill the SB with a handful of cards one rarely uses.

Perhaps a small description of my meta would be useful. Basically it's pretty random, the only viable decks I don't see played much are other Tendrils-based combo-decks, Tog, FCG, TnT and Workshop-slaver (I do face Workshop-Prison reasonably frequently, though). I also face freaky old deck concepts like SuiBlack from time to time.

Any comments would be greatly appreciated. Thanks to anyone who cared enough to read this post.

Greetz,

Remco

[jazzykat]

You chose what I would pick but I would go up to 3 oxidizes and 3 chain of vapors as they play different roles although maybe not for you.

I used chain of vapor for root mazes, and other nasty enchantments.

vs. prison: I also use them for welders in the opponents EOT step on some occaisions so then I could oxidize on my turn and I would have a turn window to go off on my next turn before their welder went active,and they hopefully don't drop another lock piece.

Since the board wasn't wishable any more, I tossed a couple of orim's chants in it. (androstalone would be so happy) because of the control happy meta I am in. Melt down is an interesting option as well, although I am not sure how viable.

I have also thought about duress but swarm and fow are just better for this type of deck, because fow is free and swarm stops them from playing stuff I would duress them for(ie counters)!

Chants also screw over other combo decks by hitting them with a chant in mid storm so it doesn't only have to be against control. Honestly though I haven't figured out to fill up the board with either.

[Shirow66]

 If you're afraid of counterspells, side in Xantid Swarm and Tarpan. If not, combo out.

Huh? What does Tarpan do against counterspells? Why would you have Tarpan in the sideboard? Wouldn't Quirion Dryad, Llanowar Elves or even Scryb Sprites be more useful if you intend to go for beatdown?

[Smmenen]

The trick about SBing with Draw7 is that there is very little you actually need to worry about.  The reason Long had a full SB was becuase half the board was Wish targets.

As such, I will try to go through a SB plan:

Against Tog and Control Generally
- Chrome Mox
- LED
- Vamp
- Time Walk

+ 4 Xantid Swarms

The reasoning is rather simple.  Chrome Mox is to help play a turn one Returns - the preferred play agaisnt these decks is turn one Xantid Swarm followed by I Win Now.

Siding out Crop Rotation is always a mistake - something it took me some time to realize becuase of how the deck is built.

Against Slavery; I'm not entirely certain, but I might Side like this:
- 1 LED
- 1 Brainstorm
- 1

+ 3 Hurkyl's Recall

Keep in mind that you can win if they just play Chalice 0 - you can Force it a good part of the time, and if they jsut play Chalice 0 there is a chance that you will have already dropped most of your goodies.  The big threat is Trinisphere - which is more likely to come down on their turn two.  This means that taking out the speed from the deck is something that must not be done.  Those cards become just as important.

Decks with Null Rod you should probably just bring in Chains or Oxidize - leaning toward Chains because it is blue and pitchable to FoW.

I'm not sure that there is any need for other SB cards.  Perhaps the only card needed is a third Tendrils for matchups where you think its going to go long and you may want that extra security - or randomly slow the game down - like against Sligh or something.

The key thing to keep in mind is that Prison is your worst matchup, NOT control.  That is, unless you have put so much disruption int he maindeck that it is too slow for you to successfuly win fast enough to evade Drain.

The key plan against Control is basically:
If you are going first:

Turn One Draw7/ Broken spell, They Force or they lose.  Turn Two Draw7, they Force again or they lose.  Turn three you brainstorm into somethign else - if they Drain this they win.  

If they go first: Turn One draw7 they Force or lose.  Turn two Draw7/Broken spell they Drain and you Force back or you might get one more chance the following turn.

That's the basic idea.

Steve

[thecapn]

 If you're afraid of counterspells, side in Xantid Swarm and Tarpan. If not, combo out.

Huh? What does Tarpan do against counterspells? Why would you have Tarpan in the sideboard? Wouldn't Quirion Dryad, Llanowar Elves or even Scryb Sprites be more useful if you intend to go for beatdown?

If Tarpan isn't amazing for you vs. control, you're not using it right.  I gave you the tech, but you're going to have to figure out how to use it yourself.  I have an interest in keeping an advantage over my opponent, but I figure the only people who are going to figure out how to use Tarpan are going to be playing draw7.  The tarpan plan takes some out of the box thinking.

Oh, and a sideboard update...  my current board has 3 Giant Trap Door Spiders for the Tog matchup (thanks to Joe Bushman).  This tech is a bit more straightforward than Tarpan, but still requires a decent amount of testing to understand the nuances.

Hope these innovations work for you.
Jason

[MartinMM]

When i play this deck the card that i fear most is trinisphere. I have yet to win a game when this card resolves. ESG helps a bit but usually the workshop deck have gotten enough time to do what they want and removing trinisphere is not enough to get back in the game.
Has anyone tried SB annul or even goblin vandal to deal with trinisphere? I realise that if the workshop deck goes first there's nothing to do except fow.
The dice roll gets more and more important .

Has Enlightened Tutor been tried ? I have begun to like it more and more in combo because the ability to set up a second turn kill with lotus. It also finds necro or fastbond. The problem as i see it is that there is not a single card in the maindeck that i would like to cut :/. Would be interesting to see other peoples conclusions on this card.

[KrauserKrauser]

The reason I would not run Enlightened is the same reason I don't run Mystical, it is simply too slow.  There have been times that I wished random card I draw was Mystical (like every time I lose, then again I wished it was something even better like any draw in the deck) but in any situation that I would need mystical I would rather becasting a draw7, draw or better search.

[Remco]

@ Steve
Thank you very much for your explanation. Although I consider myself to be a reasonably good deck builder, I play T1 mostly in a casual environment. As such, I am for the most part a novice at constructing and using sideboards, even though my main decks could be described as competitive.

This is why your answer has been quite informative to me. Again, thanks

Greetz,

Remco

[DEA]

If Tarpan isn't amazing for you vs. control, you're not using it right.  I gave you the tech, but you're going to have to figure out how to use it yourself.

Tarpan

Color= Green  Type= Creature - Tarpan  Cost= G IA(C)/5(C)  
Text (5th+errata): 1/1. ; When ~this~ is put into a graveyard from play, you gain 1 life. [Oracle 2000/02/01]

he's right
the trick is to cast this early and lull your opponent into thinking you're a random scrub so you can combo out without him even noticing what's going on

[Rico Suave]

I'm sorry, but that's just ridiculous.  If somebody spends their time dropping Tarpan on me, I will thank them.  

The only conceivable idea I could come up with is if you're shuffling to accidently drop a Tarpan from your SB, or talk about your SB Tarpan tech, but anything involving actually putting it into your maindeck is simply retarded.

[Shirow66]

he's right
the trick is to cast this early and lull your opponent into thinking you're a random scrub so you can combo out without him even noticing what's going on

But by the time you actually sideboard them in, you will have already played a game and your opponent will know what you are playing or at least suspect it, making it a really bad use of sideboard slots. Besides, not even a random scrub plays Tarpan, it is THAT bad. I seriously doubt the Tarpan tech is supposed to be used like you are suggesting. I had an initial thought of Tarpan being used to block a lethal creature, with the life gain after Tarpan goes to the graveyard somehow raising your life total to 1, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't work.

Could be he thinks the opponent will be surprised by Tarpan and just decide to counter it fearing a infinite life combo, but the opponent should know that no such combo exists, or at least not in draw7.dec. Giant Trap Door Spider sounds like a much better sideboard plan IMHO, but it seems to me that Xantid is superior against Tog.
 
In my pre-sideboard 2-fisted testing, Hulk absolutely destroys draw7 and the only chance draw7 has of winning is if Hulk sits without counters for 3-4 turns. Getting that first turn draw seven and screwing up the opponents opening hand is crucial pre-sideboard so I absolutely agree with Smmenen's Chrome Mox addition.

[dmessiah]

he's right
the trick is to cast this early and lull your opponent into thinking you're a random scrub so you can combo out without him even noticing what's going on

But by the time you actually sideboard them in, you will have already played a game and your opponent will know what you are playing or at least suspect it, making it a really bad use of sideboard slots. Besides, not even a random scrub plays Tarpan, it is THAT bad. I seriously doubt the Tarpan tech is supposed to be used like you are suggesting. I had an initial thought of Tarpan being used to block a lethal creature, with the life gain after Tarpan goes to the graveyard somehow raising your life total to 1, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't work.

Could be he thinks the opponent will be surprised by Tarpan and just decide to counter it fearing a infinite life combo, but the opponent should know that no such combo exists, or at least not in draw7.dec. Giant Trap Door Spider sounds like a much better sideboard plan IMHO, but it seems to me that Xantid is superior against Tog.
 
In my pre-sideboard 2-fisted testing, Hulk absolutely destroys draw7 and the only chance draw7 has of winning is if Hulk sits without counters for 3-4 turns. Getting that first turn draw seven and screwing up the opponents opening hand is crucial pre-sideboard so I absolutely agree with Smmenen's Chrome Mox addition.

Or it could be that the guy who T8'ed with Tarpan in the board didn't know what else to put in the slots, so he used Tarpan as a joke and people ran with it.  Duh.

[Smmenen]

he's right
the trick is to cast this early and lull your opponent into thinking you're a random scrub so you can combo out without him even noticing what's going on

But by the time you actually sideboard them in, you will have already played a game and your opponent will know what you are playing or at least suspect it, making it a really bad use of sideboard slots. Besides, not even a random scrub plays Tarpan, it is THAT bad. I seriously doubt the Tarpan tech is supposed to be used like you are suggesting. I had an initial thought of Tarpan being used to block a lethal creature, with the life gain after Tarpan goes to the graveyard somehow raising your life total to 1, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't work.

Could be he thinks the opponent will be surprised by Tarpan and just decide to counter it fearing a infinite life combo, but the opponent should know that no such combo exists, or at least not in draw7.dec. Giant Trap Door Spider sounds like a much better sideboard plan IMHO, but it seems to me that Xantid is superior against Tog.
 
In my pre-sideboard 2-fisted testing, Hulk absolutely destroys draw7 and the only chance draw7 has of winning is if Hulk sits without counters for 3-4 turns. Getting that first turn draw seven and screwing up the opponents opening hand is crucial pre-sideboard so I absolutely agree with Smmenen's Chrome Mox addition.

Tarpan and Giant Trap Door Spider is a joke intended to be funny.

Now that we are past that, I might do a Matchup Series for the mana drain on Draw7 and Hulk to show you how Draw7 wins can win this matchup.

Steve

[Shirow66]

Tarpan and Giant Trap Door Spider is a joke intended to be funny.

Now that we are past that, I might do a Matchup Series for the mana drain on Draw7 and Hulk to show you how Draw7 wins can win this matchup.

Steve

Yay, I always loved the Matchup Series and I would love to see that matchup.

[Psionic]

@Steve

I personally would *LOVE* to see a matchup analysis of Draw7 and Hulk, including several pre-SB and post-SB matches.  It would be great to include both to see how game-changing Swarms may (or may not be) in the matchup.

Psionic

[Remco]

@ Steve
I would like to thank you again for your post on sideboarding with this deck. It has helped me win a Candelabra today. Nothing very expensive, just a nice addition to my collection.

Especially the hint on Crop Rotation proved invaluable

Just thought I'd let you know.

Greetz,

Remco

[yodoblec]

I'm getting interested in this deck, but my meta is pretty heavy on GAT and Hulk Smash, so I would love to see an analysis on the match-ups pre and post sideboard.

[KrauserKrauser]

Ok I have done some, not extremely large amounts but definitely some testing against a friend's fully-pimpified Hulk and have a few conclusions.

1st game:  As was stated before if they can counter your first turn draw and then counter/drain your next turn draw, you can pretty much console yourself with the fact that they simply drew a better hand than you and they get to win as a result.  Running forces yourself helps out a bit but honestly the deck draws so many cards that they will more than likely have total control if they can stop you early.  I wish it could get better but since they are relying on 4-8 cards in thier deck compared to your 8-12 cards (8 draw7's and 4 forces) that they need to stop your matchup is kind of a crap shoot.

SB: (What I've been siding out)
-1 Time Walk
-1 LED
-1 Vamp Tutor
-1 Hurkyl's

+4 Xantid Swarm

2nd/3rd game:  Ok you side in Xantids, they side in REB's or more deeds.  The deeds you don't have to worry about but the REB's well they're just another drain but for less mana as far as Draw7 is concerned.  Luckily drawing a swarm against Tog means the only way they can get rid of it is landing a deed, something that you needn't worry about till turn2-3 or so.  And if the game goes that long well, you might be dying soon.  After sideboard, I have seen that the matchup only gets better as removal is something that my friend's Tog build is sometimes lacking.  

Sadly, in any matchup against Tog, even after sideboarding in Swarms, if they have the first turn Duress/FoW followed by another counter or duress, the likelyhood of you winning gets very slim.  I love this deck, I really do but it really, really hates me and doesn't draw me the cards needed to kill my opponents in a tournament environment.  But that's just me.