[Article] Many Happy (Diminishing) Returns - Primer On Draw7

[thecapn]

With your latest version, do you ever miss LED, most of the other cards you cut I can see but LED sure does have some nice mana with all the draw sevens we end up casting.  In other words would it be worth it to you to put say an LED and another MD Tendrils and move two swarms to the side?

LED is awesome, just not against control.  Run it main if you don't run Swarms, or run it SB instead.  Since I definitely agree with Steve that Burning Wish's cost (R) makes it less desirable than the consistency of Tendrils #2,  Regrowth gets the boot from jazzykat's SB in favor of LED.  

You do not need 3 win conditions, and I don't think Burning Wish (which would now be the third win condition) is better than any of the other cards in the deck.  I believe the main decks (swarm/no swarm) are established enough that when you think of a card that might be good, you also need to think of what current card it's better than.  If you don't want to run Swarms main, which is perfectly acceptable, then I'd run
+1 Diminishing Returns
+1 Chain of Vapor (I think this should be main anyways - see below)
+1 Hurkyl's Recall
+1 Lion's Eye Diamond


@ Justinsane:
  Orims Chant and Abeyance aren't as good as Xantid Swarm most of the time.  Also, through deck tuning we've found that consistency is better than tech.  Any white card would have to be incredibly amazing to justify adding the last color, especially since managing your mana pool is the biggest challenge when playing the deck.

@ Jazzykat:
  I would run 3 Xantid Swarm and 1 Chain of Vapor if you're going to run Xantid Swarm main deck.  3 is enough that you'll see it in your opening hand a lot against control, and you've got the 4th in the board.  I found that Xantid Swarm is sweet against control but the deck can still go off even against your scariest matchups without it.  I don't know what your metagame is but I wouldn't want to play the deck without 1 slot dedicated to outs against cards like Trinisphere, Null Rod, Chalice of the Void, Root Maze, or whatnot.  Chain of Vapor can also bounce your moxes when you're going off, making it plenty versatile.  

Later,
  Jason

[jazzykat]

Excellent discussion everyone!

Firstly:

Steve > Jazzykat. So, I am going to move the second tendrils to the MD and just play two MD win conditions. You are right that it is sometimes tricky to get the red, and doesn't tempt me


I will try only 3 swarms, and a hurkylls MD.

RE: Abeyance & Orim's Chant, I prefer swarms over them because swarms are just one mana, stick around and allow you to set up without being terrorized.

I am going to exchange a swarm and a hurkylls from MD to SB and leave an LED in the board for when I am not facing control.

I have kind of resigned myself to losing to trinisphere first game, but maybe with more testing I can get around it.

So: for my list

MD
-1 Swarm
-1 Burning Wish

+1 Tendrils
+1 Hurkyll's Recall

Sideboard
-1 Tendrils
-1 Hurkylls

+1 Swarm
+1 LED

I think that the Last diminishing returns in the board is going to get cut soon too, for something else. I am also thinking about sneaking a deathwish/burning wish in MD.

[doomhed]

As an avid fan of this archetype, I need to ask what is yer gameplan against chains keeper? they can drop a chains with force backup . is there any particular sideboard hate you have come up with that helps this matchup? it is becoming more popular in the NE.

[jazzykat]

Well I pack 3 chain of vapor in the board to deal with enchantments. Just make sure you bounch them back on the opponents end step, so you can go off, or do it with the protection of swarm if they are still about.

[MaxxMatt]

@Jazzy cat & Smmemen: Have you tried Rebuild instead of Chain or H.Recall as a maindecked solution to Sphere, 3Sphere and CotV?
This single spell can cicle if needed, get rid of opponents' hate and at the same time can generate you mana returning in hand your cheap mana artifacts. Last but not the least, generating 3 mana could be a necesssity when you play agaisnt Workshop, even if the spell you chosed to maindeck is Chain of Vapor or H.Recall. With ONLY one spell you can go off more consistently and get rid of hate.

The gap between the cc of this spell is really not so huge if you play it maindeck when you have to fear 3Sphere and Sphere as hell. I pack both 1 Chain of Vapor AND 1 Rebuild as maindeck solutions to hate and I usually pack 1 R&R, 1 H. Recall, 2 Chain of Vapor in side to support the Workshop.dec matchup in a better way post side.

What do you think?

[jazzykat]

Well I have metaed my deck to kill control, so I have only one slot MD for bounce. Hurkylls, is the most useful in my opinion, as it gets around the dreaded chalice for one, but does not cost a ridiculous amount. My favorite trick is to hurklls someone then cast a draw seven, it is really funny to dump their moxes into the yard on a wheel.

My deck has changed a bit and I will repost my newest anti-control, low occurence of 3sphere, or any other sphere for that matter list, later on today when I find it (buried in crap).

I use oxidizes, chain of vapors, and hurkylls recalls to deal with hate. I don't like going up to three mana, as I may have difficulty getting it if my moxes don't work (ie null rod).

[KrauserKrauser]

My favorite play so far with Hurkyl's has been doing it to a slavery player on a Memory jar hand.  Sadly I did not draw any gas to kill him with and still lost the game.  That is definitely one thing I find lacking in the deck, if you aren't lucky with the draw sevens then you peter out and tend to die.

[T I M]

Great article!
Returns are underrated - won me alot of games in Academy...
(Everybody thought me crazy for playing them)

May I suggest the name "SOLITAIRE" for this deck?
I hate to playtest against it...

I have had great success with Abeyance. Reasons:
1) Makes it safe to feed your opponent with cards(FoW's)
2) Great in his upkeep or in the Mirror
3) Synergy with Vamp/mystical
4) Works instantly - (swarms do not)
5) Makes my head more focused(important in skill-decks)
    - when I don't need to ask my opponent for permission
6) Makes the deck stronger against it's worst enemy - Control

[Androstanolone]

orim's chant>>abeyance in draw7

[jazzykat]

I really think the sarms are still major hotness. Sometimes you can't go off real fast or something, swarms just give the control player fits, especially hulk with no md removal. They have to rely on their duresses now instead of their 8 nasty counters, that stop your draw sevens and other fun stuff.

Also, swarm can't be duressed away, it must be countered!

[Androstanolone]

Swarms turn all your opponent's MDed removal into counterspells, when otherwise they would be dead cards.  They don't do shit against aggro who MD hosers and SB more hosers.  Not to mention they look really stupid against gay red, a matchup that's already not so good.  Swarms are mainly tog h8, other decks that run cspells have MD removal or are plenty proactive.  Sounds like a decent SB card for tog, not a MD answer to everything that runs counters.  

On the other hand, orim's chant works now, when a combo deck wants it to.  It makes all their counters moot no matter how many they draw, is not vulnerable to removal (another must-counter for only 1 mana), it's tech in the mirror match, it's not dead against aggro (far from it), not to mention that, if chant resolves, you win.  That's kinda good too.  

Reasons why swarm is good:
Lets you save mana for next turn (what next turn?)
Gets around counterspells forever (good player = need 1 turn)

Reasons why chant is good:
Gets around counterspells on the turn you go off
Tech in mirror match
Not vulnerable to MD (or SB) removal
Can't be stifled

pros of chant>>pros of swarm

Reasons why swarm is bad:
Turns MDed removal into counterspells (3/4 cspell decks have removal)
Looks dumb against aggro
Looks even dumber against fish
Not an answer to proactive threats
Can be stifled

Reasons why chant is bad:
Can be misdirected
Leaves you with 1 less mana to go off

vulnerable to removal or vulnerable to misD?  I'll let you choose but for now I'm saying cons chant << cons swarm

The argument is not in swarms' favor as a MD card, I'd like to see a good counterargument not the few irrelevant comments I've come across so far in this thread.  



- androstan

edit:  cleaned up sentence structure/grammar

[Androstanolone]

Also, swarm can't be duressed away, it must be countered!

rofl oh no instead of taking your swarm I'll take your draw7 and now you can sit there and look stupid beating me down with your 0/1 while my tog ass rapes you.  

Nothing further.

[jazzykat]

RE: duress vs. swarm

Firstly, if you have an orims chant or a duress, and a draw seven or a swarm and a draw seven, they will probably take the draw 7 regardless.

Secondly, if you have only a swarm or a chant/abeyance they can take your abeyance/chant.

Nextly, the swarm works every turn, thus never hinting at when you are going off. Lastly, swarms can be used as chump blockers(which I have found to be like a pseudo time walk on ocaision).

@androstalone: Please understand I have done significant playtesting and if you think I make the wrong choice then post your list for critique or just play it and win with it. I don't like all the 3spheres in the sb of meandeck slaver and have put the deck down for a little while, also tog gave me fits when I played against it, because of their duresses and 8 counterspells, and fantastic draw power to get them. I will tell you that the swarms were gold against them, as they were a must counter and protected me IF I went off, thanks to their lack of MD removal.

[Androstanolone]

I don't deny that xantid swarms are pretty darn good against tog, but they're mediocre at best against everything else and are just plain nothings against proactive threats + aggro.  I can't see MDing such a narrow card unless 50% of your meta is tog.  Chant is much more versatile and does essentially the same thing, for all the reasons I posted.  I've already posted a decklist, scroll back and check it out, it is basically just smmenen's with 2 chants fit in.

Edit:  plus, chant wins the google fight, pwned.

[RoadTrippin]

Also, swarm can't be duressed away, it must be countered!

rofl oh no instead of taking your swarm I'll take your draw7 and now you can sit there and look stupid beating me down with your 0/1 while my tog ass rapes you.  

Nothing further.

Actually this is huge.

Tog, right now, is a frequently played deck that you absolutely must expect to face off with at least once to have a decent shot at success in a tournament. It is a particularly tough matchup (for combo) because it plays Duress in addition to a plethora of counters, and the savage card draw we all know and love   . However, I have been on the combo side of Tog playtesting matchup literally hundreds of times, and I have found that the margin of games where the outcome is affected by resolution of Xantid is inherently huge, which obviously can prove itself before a single testing game is played. However, although I haven't composed a table or anything of that sort, I'm sure there's a significantly contrasting (read: improved) win:loss ratio for many combo decks' matchups with Tog when they use Xantid Swarm over Chant/Abeyance.

That, and Misdirection is being thrown around more than ever with the rise of Landstill. Or the plateau of Landstill. Either way, there's a good amount of Landstill, which means a good amount of Mis-D, which means a good chance to screw yourself over if you're playing with Chant/Abeyance. Obviously Xantid Swarm does also have it's own inherent weaknesses against such a deck, but this isn't the place to discuss it!

[Androstanolone]

IR to roadtrippin's post, yes swarm helps in the tog matchup, but chant helps in *every* matchup while swarm can be dead in several matchups.  I'd rather have a versatile MD card that always works in my favor sans an occasional misD and have narrow h8 in the SB, right?  



- androstan

[BreathWeapon]

Out of curiousity, how many people are happy with Time Walk in the deck? It seems to add very little to the strategic elements of Twister, and i've cut it for Mystical Tutor. Anybody else have strong feelings on this?

Oh, Swarm>Chant. Chant is only really useful the turn you go off, Swarm can set up a lot more breathing room vs Control and especially against Tog. I wouldn't play the deck with out them.

[KrauserKrauser]

Ok tournament number two with the deck tonight and a few observations:

MD Swarms = win against control.

2 MD win conditions = not so hot.  Lost two games by removing my kill conditions.  I know that I want another MD kill.  I know, I know I'm a wuss but honestly even in fish bowling I lose to myself around 10-15% of the time and I find that unacceptable.  I am thinking of cutting either Time Walk or LED for it.  More than likely it will be LED as I have been siding out often in most of my matches.

I lost to dragon.  Like even bad dragon.  WTF!  Makes no sense.

Question for the thread: Do I always FoW those first turn Duress? In threee games I had the opportunity to Force a duress but did not have the gas to really do anything so I thought I would be ok.  Sadly, each game I would then draw said gas and then proceed to lose once they got control.

I really like the deck but there are always those times when a cast that draw seven and then just crap out. Blah.

[jazzykat]

Also, another important finding I have had on the swarm vs. chant issue.

I don't need them to kill aggro, and that is the truth. I rarely need another turn to  win. Normally I combo out a turn before I am dead.

Furthermore, swarms are funny because when you give a burn deck all the draw sevens if you hit them with a swar or a chant they can't burn you out!

RE: Timewalk, I like it but I can see how you might cut it.

RE: Removing win conditions, how many diminishing returns do you cast? I occaisionally remove a win condition but not that often.

RE: LED, I have it in my board to go faster vs. aggro and combo but I don't like dead cards vs control (our hardest matchup)

[Smash]

If you get a 2 land + mox + time walk hand, it does really good of accelerating you. However, this deck is pretty land light, so it might not come in handy as much as other combo decks (rector trix...)

It definately isn't the best card to up the storm count though.

[Androstanolone]

There are so many things wrong here I donno where to begin.  Bleh.  

Chant is only really useful the turn you go off

yeah, who needs a card that's useful when you're trying to go off.  I mean, since all the turns afterwards are so important, and the turns where you do almost nothing conserving your spells for the turn that you do go off are so also so vital.

MD Swarms = win against control.

Sadly, each game I would then draw said gas and then proceed to lose once they got control.

so MD 4 swarms is win against control but you are still having trouble against control (tog I'm assuming since you were duressed).  Tog is the #1 deck swarm is for.  This sounds like a problem with play ability.

I don't need them to kill aggro, and that is the truth. I rarely need another turn to win. Normally I combo out a turn before I am dead.

This is completely moot.  Of course you can combo out before aggro can kill you, that's the whole point of a combo deck.  Aggro doesn't win because they beat you down first, they win because of first turn root maze, 1-2nd turn null rod, and whatever else they may bring in from the side in games 2-3.  In a varied meta, you will run into these hosers MDed as big O and fish are a significant presence.  They will both slow you down more than a turn and green men will ass rape you while clouds of faeries bite your nipples off.  

Furthermore, swarms are funny because when you give a burn deck all the draw sevens if you hit them with a swar or a chant they can't burn you out!

this is ridiculous, burn.dec will insure that your swarm ceases to exist before he gets over his summoning sickness.  Implying that swarms help against a burn deck is ludicrous.

Removing time walk is also a bad idea, first turn time walk is enough of a boost to let you go off before your opponent ever gets an untap phase, or draws a card depending on who won the roll.  I admit it's not the strongest or most synergistic card in the deck, but when looking at the turns that matter the most, 1-2, it still has significant power and pitches to fow.  Mystical tutor is a good addition to the deck also, imo.

I still have not seen a good argument backuping up swarms.  I have only seen anecdotal evidence where people have done well in a few games with them.  This, plus a few comments like "swarm stays around and gives you breathing room" just don't hold up against my direct comparison.  The only good point I've seen is that chant can be misDed, which I already pointed out, and which is obviously a much smaller risk than MDing 4 cards that are dead against everything but control and only really good against a deck with no removal (one that I can think of).



Edit:  plus, chant wins the google fight.  



- Androstan

[c9h13no3]

Am I really seeing the "arguments" you guys are putting up for Xantid Swarm, or do my eyes decieve me?  Lemme address some of these real fast.

MD Swarms = win against control.

Okay, nice opinion with no fact or reason behind it.  And considering statements like these:

I lost to dragon. Like even bad dragon.

Sadly, each game I would then draw said gas and then proceed to lose once they got control.

We can see that his opinions mean nothing.  If he loses to dragon, then wouldn't Orim's Chant be nice in that matchup?  And how good a player can he be if he gets beaten by a bad dragon deck playing draw 7?  And in the second statement, he says he loses to control.  Wtf?  I thought those 4 Xantid Swarms meant you won?  Or do you just enjoy contradicting yourself for the sake of my amusement?  And if you're having problems with running out of gas, shouldn't you drop some of the non-gas cards *COUGH* 4 SWARMS *COUGH*?

I don't need them to kill aggro, and that is the truth. I rarely need another turn to win. Normally I combo out a turn before I am dead.

Maybe you don't understand why you would lose to aggro.  Combo decks do not fear their beatdown.  They fear Root Maze, Null Rod, Pyrostatic Pillar, Chalice of the Void.  THAT is how aggro beats a combo deck (I can't believe I just had to explain that).  The chants are not in the deck to buy extra turns vs. the attack.  They are there to play during their upkeep to keep those evil hoses from hitting the table.  Xantid Swarms do NOTHING to stop these cards.

swarms are funny because when you give a burn deck all the draw sevens if you hit them with a swarm or a chant they can't burn you out!

Yes, very good.  But here's the question that I'm wondering about.  You said the words "burn deck".  Meaning that the deck has a lot of burn I suppose (maybe your burn decks differ from mine, who knows.).  Now the question here is, HOW THE HELL IS THE XANTID SWARM ALIVE!?!?!  If a deck is running tons of burn spells, why is he unable to burn your swarm?  In this matchup, Orim's Chant is (once again) the card to be playing.

Chant is only really useful the turn you go off.

Are you planning on playing the game for a few turns AFTER you go off???  And if you play spells the turn before you go off that you don't want countered, swarm isn't going to help much there either since it has summoning sickness, and games usually only last 2-3 turns.

can set up a lot more breathing room vs Control and especially against Tog.

And Orim's Chant can't?  You do realize that chant can be used to ensure your spells aren't countered right?  And along those same lines, are you sure running 4 cards maindeck is a good decision just to help beat 1 deck?

I'm seriously getting sick of all the opinions rolling around.  People seem to think that just by posting up "Swarms > Chant" or some junk like that they have made a persuasive arguement.

What I would suggest with chants, is that it is your 2nd strongest disruption next to force of will.  Some metagames that are heavier on control would benefit from running 2 chants maindeck, and a higher land count, by taking out some of the fast mana that you run since being fast isn't as much of an issue against a slower, blue based control deck.  I would rather see chant maindecked instead of Xantid Swarms since they are much more flexible vs. other decks.

Currently, in my version, I run 2 main deck, with 4 Swarms in the board for the reasons which I've dicussed above.  I've also made some modifications to the deck, as far as Burning Wish, and Dim Returns go, I'll post them if anyone is interested, but somehow I think it will be met with the same mindless criticisms like "omg no, you defy the Menendian decklist", and since I really don't feel like responding to all that again, I'll hold off.

Oh yeah, and props to Roadtrippin'.  He may have disagreed with what I have to say, but he at least put some brains into his response.  However, I must say that I have to disagree.  He seems very sure that Xantid Swarm is much better than chant in the tog matchup.  But I personally don't see the huge advantage it creates.  I think they are really close to equal if anything.  Xantid Swarm saves you a mana the turn you go off if you play it the turn before.  However, I don't see that one mana as being so critical that you would neglect the other 70-80% of the metagame.  Basically, I don't feel the one mana edge is worth running a dead card in other matchups, and I feel the edge is not necessary in order to have a good chance against tog game 1.  So I don't maindeck the swarms.  I can understand if you thought you were going to see a field of 40+% tog how Xantid Swarm would be a better choice (but 4 is still a bit extreme in the main deck).

And lastly, I flame people because of their blatantly thoughtless posts, and if they take offense to what some John Doe has said over the internet then they need to get their head checked.  I realize that you guys here are trying to create a positive discussion enviroment but I believe a lot of the retarded posts around here are detracting from that more than this isolated flame ever will.

Flames NEVER, EVER solve a problem. They ALWAYS make things worse. The whole point of TMD is to discuss and communicate; flaming is actually worse for the site than whatever you flamed to begin with.

Warning issued.

-Jacob

[BreathWeapon]

I'm not going to argue over the merits of Xantid Swarm in this deck anymore after this, its obvious that the people using Chant have little to no experience playing combo in a competitive environment. Swarm allows Combo to fight Control for Board Position and Chant doesn't. A seasoned combo player doesn't give a damn about how fast he can win the game, he simply concentrates on winning. Control doesn't always "go off" from an awesome hand on turn 2 or turn 1. Swarm improves this deck's Mulligan hands significantly vs Control by establishing a possible long term threat that can buy enough time to Top Deck a Draw 7 and bring the game home. Thats the beauty of Swarm, its a completely self contained and independant threat from the rest of the deck.

Back to the Timewalk issue, if I were to cut it, is Mystical Tutor the best card to take its place? I'm playing the 4 Swarms MD list mind you.

[Smmenen]

I apologize, but I simply don't see the merit in Chant.  The point of Swarm is that you can invest in them on turn one, and then use them on turn two without having to pay any more mana.  

As for the control matchup, I suggest that people grab a hulk list with 4 duress and do some "two-fisted testing."  What I mean by that is you play yourself so you can play optimally from both sides.  I think you will be surprised how well Draw7 does - in my experience it is very close to 50%.  This is without Xantid Swarms maindeck - using the build i posted in the article.  If you take this experience with you to a tournament, you will have a better than 50% matchup against Tog game one just from that knowledge alone.  

By doing two fisted testing, you will realize that the fear of counterspell is not something that should inhibit you from making bold plays (among other things).  

Stephen Menendian

[thecapn]

I'm going to put in my two cents about the Swarm vs Chant issue.  Overall, though, I think that people are arguing about the wrong things.  

I don't need them to kill aggro, and that is the truth. I rarely need another turn to win. Normally I combo out a turn before I am dead.

Maybe you don't understand why you would lose to aggro.  Combo decks do not fear their beatdown.  They fear Root Maze, Null Rod, Pyrostatic Pillar, Chalice of the Void.  THAT is how aggro beats a combo deck (I can't believe I just had to explain that).  The chants are not in the deck to buy extra turns vs. the attack.  They are there to play during their upkeep to keep those evil hoses from hitting the table.  Xantid Swarms do NOTHING to stop these cards.

   Xantid Swarm is not in the main deck to deal with these threats, Xantid Swarm is in the main deck for the control matchup.  Basically, when you play Xantid Swarm main deck you are metagaming your deck to be, more or less, pre-sideboarded for control.  Xantid Swarms are narrow cards that don't help the deck go off - they are there to pose another threat for Control and ideally nullify control's gameplan.  
  I don't run Xantid Swarm main, and I believe 1 Chain of Vapor and 1 Hurkyl's Recall is a better choice than 2 Orim's Chant.  I'm assuming these cards are fighting for the same slot because this makes the most sense to me.  Orim's Chant is only proactive, while these cards can be both proactive or reactive - though you run them for their reactive function.  If your opponent goes first Chant does nothing against Chalice or Root Maze.  The same is true if you don't happen to have Chant in your hand at the appropriate time.  Your entire deck is proactive enough to make all but a handful of threats matter, and Hurkyl's and Chain of Vapor, not Orim's Chant, is the best way to deal with them.  Also, Orim's Chant doesn't help you go off, whereas Hurkyl's Recall and Chain of Vapor can allow you to bounce your artifact mana and replay it, generating mana and storm count.  Lastly, Chain of Vapor and Hurkyl's Recall are blue - on color and pitchable to Force of Will, where Orim's Chant is adding an off color to a deck that's greatest skill requirement is micro-managing your mana pool.

Chant is only really useful the turn you go off.

Are you planning on playing the game for a few turns AFTER you go off???  And if you play spells the turn before you go off that you don't want countered, swarm isn't going to help much there either since it has summoning sickness, and games usually only last 2-3 turns.

can set up a lot more breathing room vs Control and especially against Tog.

And Orim's Chant can't?  You do realize that chant can be used to ensure your spells aren't countered right?  And along those same lines, are you sure running 4 cards maindeck is a good decision just to help beat 1 deck?

   What is really unique about draw 7 is that contrary to many combo decks, sometimes the best strategy isn't to just try to win the game asap.  With draw 7, sometimes the best plan is to draw some cards with draw 7's, play some artifacts or lands, and then pass the turn with a strong hand.  This increases your odds of winning because it allows you to start over in a better position than you started off last turn - you've still got 7 cards in your hand but you have a much better mana base.  Xantid Swarm fits in with the slow play plan perfectly.  And yes, running 4 main deck cards to beat a couple decks is a good choice if they're your hardest matchups and are popular where you play.

What I would suggest with chants, is that it is your 2nd strongest disruption next to force of will.  Some metagames that are heavier on control would benefit from running 2 chants maindeck, and a higher land count, by taking out some of the fast mana that you run since being fast isn't as much of an issue against a slower, blue based control deck.  I would rather see chant maindecked instead of Xantid Swarms since they are much more flexible vs. other decks.

  Here you've allude to playing slower against control, which is exactly what I was saying above.  Xantid Swarm is better in this strategy because it usually provides protection throughout the whole game if it resolves.  Then you bring up flexibility of the card slots, but Hurkyl's and Chain of Vapor are more flexible than chant, and again Xantid Swarm is only run main if you're not worried about the other decks.
 

  I can understand if you thought you were going to see a field of 40+% tog how Xantid Swarm would be a better choice (but 4 is still a bit extreme in the main deck).

  I also think 4 is a bit extreme, which is why I would still run 3 Xantid Swarms and 1 Chain of Vapor if I were to run them man.  To summarize- if you're going to run Xantid Swarms main deck, you're doing it because you expect to play a lot of decks that they will be good against.  In this scenario, Xantid Swarm is a better choice than chant.  If you don't run Xantid Swarms main, which is because you expect a diverse metagame, then a Chain of Vapor and a Hurkyl's Recall are going to be better than Orim's Chant.  Feel free to correct me if you'd cut something else for Chant.  

In regards to the Time Walk slot- it's one of the weaker cards in the deck but it fits in well with the slow play strategy.  I'm pretty sure Steve tested Mystical Tutor and cut it for a reason, but perhaps that or Frantic Search should be tried in it's place.  Right now I'm working on other things so I haven't been playing this deck and can only speculate.  
Later,
  Jason

[Androstanolone]

card draw/tutor/etc.

4 brainstorm
3 dim returns
1 time walk
1 ancestral recall
1 timetwister
1 windfall
1 wheel of fortune
1 memory jar
1 tinker
1 vampiric tutor
1 necropotence
1 yawgmoth's will
1 yawgmoth's bargain
1 crop rotation
1 demonic tutor

kill

2 tendrils of agony

backup:

4 fow
2 orim's chant
1 chain of vapor

mana:

4 ESG
1 fastbond
1 tolarian academy
4 gemstone mine
4 city of brass
2 glimmervoid
4 dark ritual
1 lotus petal
1 black lotus
5 moxen
1 mana crypt
1 LED
1 sol ring
1 mana vault

Some changes that one could make are replacing TW with mystical tutor, although I wouldn't reccomend it, the extra tutoring power is pretty strong also.  I also thought about cutting the LED for a mox diamond because it can screw you against control, but it has set up some explosive plays for me before.  Running 1 less dim returns isn't that bad, since you don't really wanna cast more than 1 a game anyway, 7 draw7's + tutors + brainstorms is adequate.

[KrauserKrauser]

Ok since appearantly my statements turned into flamebait here is some explanation/justification.

"Xantid = win against control."  Well they are.  In my last tourney I lost one match to a good dragon deck.  The bad dragon was a tourney ago and well the deck was changed between the two.  When I resolved a Swarm, I won (well except the time I kept a hand of petal, swarm, emerald, and 3 ESG and died because I had too much fun with the hand.  News to no one ESG beats are neither savage nor beats).  Against a grow deck my swarm meant I could simply go off with reckless abandon.  Had that swarm been a chant I would not have won in all of those cases.  The benefit of swarm vs. chant is that swarm simply sticks around.  Since the reigning deck of the moment happens to be a deck that runs removal light, swarm in my oh so humble opinion is hte better choice.  At no point in the games I played did I wish that I had the chant instead of the swarm.  I totally agree that chant is a great card in this deck, I simply feel that in a tog/control heavy meta that swarms are the better choice.

The two MD win conditions are just a personal preferrence thing.  I know I shouldn't but I guess I don't feel lucky enough when depending on those Returns to let me still win the game.

"I lost to dragon. Like even bad dragon. WTF! Makes no sense."  This was not a statement that I believe the deck has a bad matchup against Dragon just that appearantly I can't draw a good starting hand to save my life against this deck.  I mean WTF!

The statement about me crapping out is again my luck kicking in.  When the deck simply won't draw you the cards that win you the game, you get to sit back and cry.

[jazzykat]

I am personally done with this topic. Maybe people didn't like my reasoning. Maybe they didn't playtest, maybe they woke up on the wrong side of the bed, maybe they choose the quality of the card based on who won the google fight, maybe they don't like listening to Steve Menendian who designed the deck, but much more likely, maybe they just like a specific card over another.

For people worrying about MD hate, I just don't bother I usually play against decks that either suck royally, and don't know about it or are so powered that the hate would be stupid to put in their deck. This is just my meta, and I wouldn't play this deck if I was going to encounter a lot of chalices, 3spheres, null rods, and sphere of resistance, I would just play tog or slaver then.

And for the record, I play 3 swarms and 1 hurkylls recall MDin the NE

Good luck everyone!

J. Kat

[c9h13no3]

In response to what capn said, I think he made basically two points, that Xantid Swarm is better vs. control, and that Hurkyl's Recall is better vs. chalice///sphere disruption based decks (ie, slaver & stax).  And he's correct.  However, I feel that YOU guys are looking at this the wrong way.

You said yourself that Xantid Swarm is a narrow card.  Well, Hurkyl's Recall is also narrow.  I'm suggesting that in a mixed metagame, you would be better off running Orim's Chant since it can deal with both of the things Recall and Swarm are designed to deal with.  Hence why it is a better maindeck slot.  You're not going to face JUST Tog or artifact based decks in today's meta, you'll face both.  I would not main just Swarms or Hurkyl's Recall and then just hope I don't have to play the other deck.  I would bring a deck with cards useful against both.

As far as downsides to Chant, I think it has the same downsides as Recall and Vapor in that it uses on color mana.  The deck as a whole's main struggle (I feel) is with obtaining fast, on color mana.  Lion's Eye Diamond used to help immensly with this problem, but as you all know, it's been restricted.  It was the gas to the former long decks, and it is the reason that I run 4 FoW's over any other disruption (it uses no mana).  The limiting color is usually blue.  I usually find myself usually scraping for blue mana if I don't get an Academy or a Black Lotus out.  My two main plays that I make game after game is dem-tutoring for black lotus to turn that dark rit mana into blue mana, and using green ESG mana to crop rotate into academy.  So Hurkyl's Recall being blue doesn't really alleviate this problem of being color limiting.  Of course, chant doesn't get around this problem since you have to tap a source that would usually be used to create blue to create white.  But saying that Hurkyl's Recall is on color and that Chant is off isn't a fair arguement except for when talking about pitching to FoW.  I actually find Chant nice because it gives me something to do with my mox pearl :p.

I would also like to point out that while going off ASAP is not a must against control, it definately helps.  Usually in the control matchup, it comes down to a counter war over a critical spell.  Weither it be Swarm, Chant, Twister, whatever.

Just for the record, my version of the deck runs 1 Chain of Vapor, 2 Orim's Chants, and 4 FoW's.

Basically to summarize:

but Hurkyl's and Chain of Vapor are more flexible than chant, and again Xantid Swarm is only run main if you're not worried about the other decks.

This is the statement I don't agree with.  Hurkyl's Recall isn't more flexible.  It does nothing vs. control, and is basically in the deck for 4 cards: Null Rod, 3Sphere, Sphere of Resistance, and Chalice.  Just like Swarm is around to deal with just counters.  No one is trying to argue that those cards aren't a real threat to combo decks, I'm simply saying that Chant deals with all of them, and is a better slot for the main deck in a varied metagame where you will meet all kinds of threats.

As to the other posters, I'll briefly respond to them, since they don't matter.

1) I am personally done with this topic.

2) Maybe people didn't like my reasoning.

3) maybe they don't like listening to Steve Menendian who designed the deck

1) Good.
2) What reason?
3) You're dead right.  I value thoughts and reason over some magic celebrity's opinion.  He basically stated he thought the "idea" of swarm was that you don't have to use the mana on it the turn you go off.  That had already been stated, and I wondered to myself if he had even read my posts.  I don't care if he doesn't want to get into a long dragged out debate about card choice, that's fine.  His choice.  But I, personally, am going to think for myself, and take everything into account.

And to the Krauser guy, he basically restated himself.  He said stuff like:

1) "Xantid = win against control." Well they are.
2) Against a grow deck my swarm meant I could simply go off with reckless abandon.
3) At no point in the games I played did I wish that I had the chant instead of the swarm.

that he tried to pass off as an arguement for his position.  He said things everyone knows, and didn't address what I wrote about.  Hence why I don't value his "arguements" or opinions.

[KrauserKrauser]

Ok I read your post and am sorry if you think I was simply restating myself.

Swarm is best against control, Tog being the place where they really shine.  Chain and Recall are only useful against Workshop and other such artifact decks.  I do agree with your argument that Chant is a good compromise, if you will allow me to paraphrase.  It has all the effects of a Swarm while being useful against the majority of decks in the field.

The problem with chant that I keep coming back to before putting it in the deck is simply the need for me to kill my opponent after I play the chant.  It promotes a play style that is much more aggressive than I believe the deck is consistently able to support.  Normally without interference from the other side the deck can go off soon and rightfully so, it casts a lot of spells and draws a lot of cards.  But with chant you depend even more so than with swarm and the bounce spells on what your draw sevens net.  If you draw well while under the effects of a chant then you will win.  The same can be said if you had attacked with a swarm or bounced all those nasty artifacts that tend to keep the deck in check.  Chant is great, it stops your opponent like a swarm and even if it is countered you only spent one white to get a counter out of the other sides hand, which probably means the next draw7 will resolve.  It has all of the must counter aspects found in swarm and the instant speed of the bounce.  The reason I would run swarm/bounce over it in a diverse metagame lies mainly in its one time use aspects.