Need Help With a First Design for Aggro-Control

[defector]

Hello TMD,
I have played other people's decks for awhile now, in particular Toad and Kevin Crone's workshop style decks.  I really like them, I like the workshop.  The only problem and I mean no offense is that I want to play something less of someone else's.  I want to try to come up with something original, as origianl in magic means a sum of all things familiar in an unfamaliar way, let me present.

Workshop-Still

Mana Base-25-
Mishra's Workshop X4
Tolarian Academy
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Gilded Lotus X3
Tundra X4
Flooded Strand X4
Tropical Island X4
Island x3

The Lock-12-
Trinisphere X4
Sphere of Resistance X4
Chalice of the Void X4

The Kill-15-
Treetop Village X4
Mishra's Factory X4
Faery Conclave X4
Decree of Justice X3

The Draw-5-
Standstill X4
Ancestral Recall

Get out of Jail-1-
Balance

Combo-2-
Channel
Fastbond

Originality is implied in the open source fashion, so here is my release, if it looks interesting to you, please build/test/play/comment.  Obviously many of you have more power than I do, I would put more moxen in if I had them.  This is a realistic list for my library.  I've been running it only a short while, so far I don't like the consistecy of it, but I will post more as I play more.  It is a little too new for me to detect any necessary changes.  I'm not sure if green has to stay or not.  The idea is to decree or village under a sphere/3sphere lock.  The lock is supposed to be soft, I just need to take away a turn or two, enough so that my slow creature base can begin the assault.  
I played about ten games vs black/blue control last night, 4 negators/2 morphlings, duress X4, Mana Drain X4, ScryX3.  Mixed results, I wasn't clearly dominated, seeing as my threats got under the counter radar.  Still, I was dissapointed with the lack of pressure I could exert, the viallage is a beat, but I fear for the speed of it.  Decree is cool if I have Golded Lotus in play.  My test meta is scrubby, my monthly tourney meta is hell, so winning with my friends is a poor indicator of the decks strength.

The sidebaord
Swords x2-3(I have some dragon to contend with)
Naturalize 2-3
The rest would come with some meta considerations.  
Any help or insight would be greatly appreciated, in anticipation of some reply, I don not disagree tha the idea may be bad, that doesn't mean it's worth testing.  Many bad ideas have turned int o good one with revision.  Also, just because it incorporates components of Landstill and Workshop.dec doesn't mean that it has to play like either of them/
thanx,
defector

[Sytupal]

defector,   it's a cool idea, but don't you feel limited with the use of Workshop?   It's a great card, yes,  and with the name of the deck it sounded alot like Injectilio's creation dropping some fat then dropping a standstill.   However you took a much different approach and with your build I'm worried about several things.  Gilded Lotus was primary run i assumed with a karn based kill having it be a versatile piece of fat, here it seems clunky and not easily castable early.  Chalice of the void Also seems akward considering if you chalice for:

1: you lose ancestral, Fastbond, swords in sideboard
2: you lose Balance, Channel, Standstill, Sphere of Resistance, Naturalize in sideboard

3 and zero( first turn after you drop your moxen) seem your only viable options.  Considering you'll already have a Trinisphere on the board which is rather synergetic depending on how that works.   But you'd be hesistant if not very reluctant to drop the chalice at 1 or 2.  deadcards suck. a lot. lol.  

You Run 4 Workshop however there are only 15 artifacts to cast with them.   This seems a little off base.  Maybe dropping 4x Treetop or 4x Conclave for 4x of some sort of fat such as a juggernaut or something may be a better option?


I really like the fact that you're being original and more of us need to be nowadays but it seems that synergy is your biggest issue here.    Maybe with 4x more artifacts in the form of fat will be better?    


Im not really sure in your metagame if chalice is a good maindeck choice, maybe a lot of aggro or something.   Cool idea though.

[defector]

Thank you for the quick response.  I think your right about the chalices.  The idea there was to promote a lock to slide the lands under, but now that you mention itmy winning percentage thus far has been highest without a chalice in play.  I like Juggeraut and its been awhile since i've used him.  My main aim for chalice was 3, as i hate/fear the tog.  I wonder if I should put in a Mindslaver.  Just for kicks I like the gilded lotus for Decree, the idea is to turn as much workshop mana into colored mana, so that I can toss of large decrees.  I started with workshop because I love the card, I'll have to lose a lot to cut them at early stage of developement.  
thanx
defector

[mtg_player_2004]

Mana Base-25-
Mishra's Workshop X4
Tolarian Academy
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Gilded Lotus X3  <------ Way too slow for T1.  This is where your Mana Crypt, Mana Vault and Sol ring fit in  (also Grim monolith should fit in somewhere around here).
Tundra X4  <----- White isn't worth adding here.  I'll explain when I get to those cards.  In fact, let me just cover all of your land here.  White has no place in workshops, the only thing I can think of would be disenchants, but welders can be just as good or better in some cases.  Green also isn't worth adding, treetop villager doesn't justify anything.  In fact, it just slows this deck down.  You also should run Ancient tombs to help accelerate things.
Flooded Strand X4
Tropical Island X4
Island x3

The Lock-12-
Trinisphere X4
Sphere of Resistance X4
Chalice of the Void X4

Right here is also a big problem.  Trinisphere and Chalice should be in copies of 3 IMO because once you play a 2nd copy, it's worthless.  You also don't have tangle wires or smokestacks, which are both important to prison.

The Kill-15-
Treetop Village X4
Mishra's Factory X4
Faery Conclave X4
Decree of Justice X3

Treetop and conclaves are too slow for this deck, so are decrees, too expensive.  YOu also don't have welders, which is nuts, and I would personally run 2 karn 1 trisk, but then it'll look netdeckish.

The Draw-5-
Standstill X4
Ancestral Recall

Standstill works against this deck.  You want to lock them up so they can't play, then be forced to play?  It'd be better to run a more cooperative lock (smokestack and tangle wire) instead of standstill.

Get out of Jail-1-
Balance

This also will turn out against you in most cases becides weakening their hand and possibly creatures.

Combo-2-
Channel
Fastbond

WTF?

[Sytupal]

Balance has great synergy against all form of creatures unless a decree has already been dropped in which case he'll be on the verge of winning anyways.    With the manlands in play there aren't any creatures checked by balance thus your opponent needs to get rid of his.   You are assuming that all changes you've almost force upon this deck will happen and then you're making suggestions as to why certain cards won't help.

Standstill always has synergy with manlands and has great synergy with a cycled decree.


The Gilded comment being too slow is justified with sol ring and mana vault being a better choice but mana crypt, no, it puts him on an unecessary clock.  White is definitely worth adding and is part of the main deck concept, what, would you rather just have him playing monoblue landstill crap?   Balance makes white worth adding,   and who says it doesn't belong in a workshop build?   This has been addressed but too much pressure on anyone with a new and innovative deck idea will make them not want to try and make it work.  

The deck isn't a prison deck,  the suggestions of stacks or tangle wires go against his original quote of :

"Many bad ideas have turned int o good one with revision. Also, just because it incorporates components of Landstill and Workshop.dec doesn't mean that it has to play like either of them"


EDIT:   the standstill aren't under lock components because they aren't lock components, they're simply ancestral 2-5

[defector]

Thanx for the reply,
The fastbond allows me to play the "comes into play tapped" lands on my ooponents turn, mitigating sickness/tap to some extent.  The channel is for decree, pay ten life, get ten 1/1 soldier tokens, or if you have two white, multiple angels.  The standstill hasn't worked against me so far, the man lands slide under and Decree cysles around it.  I have been forced to break it yet.  Chalice coudl go three or get chopped altogether, the irriation of trinisphere is that i want a four of for purposes of probablility, but there is no cumultive stack, unlike the spheres of resistance, shich have been golden so far.  I'll do more testing tonightand post a new llist tomorrow.
thanx
defector

[defector]

Sytupal,
Thank you for the support, Balance was interpreted correctly as most times I've cast it I have won card and creature advantage due to the influx of artifatcs in play.  Sol ring needs to go in as well as mana crypt.  I have personal distate for Grim Monlith and can't contend with Mana Crypt.  This shoudl play like all three archetypes, but it shoudl be viewed as Aggro-Control first.  I'm off ffor tonight, i'll have more tomorrow.
thanx,
defector

[Jeikki]

The fastbond allows me to play the "comes into play tapped" lands on my ooponents turn, mitigating sickness/tap to some extent.

Sorry for nitpicking, but no, it doesn't. You can play the lands on your turn.
Pretty interesting deck though. I'd say it looks somewhat unfocused. Do you feel they're getting enough use to keep the Workshops in there?

[serracollector]

Very very intresting idea.  To some extent I must agree with people, and to some I cannot.  Gilded Lotus too expensive in t1?  Not true as proven by Smmenen in his control slaver deck.  Workshop + Moxen=Lotus.  Next turn, decree for 4-5 etc.  Sol Ring and Mana Vault are a must though.  I would suggest mana crypt since it is such a huge mana accelerant, but it does put you on a clock, and even with the 15 threats and 5 Ancestral's, it may be too short of a clock.  The suggestions I give, I will simply print in bold:

Workshop-Still

Mana Base-25-
Mishra's Workshop X4
Tolarian Academy
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Gilded Lotus X3
Tundra X4
Flooded Strand X4
Tropical Island X4
Island x3

The Lock-12-
Trinisphere X4
Sphere of Resistance X4
Chalice of the Void X4

The Kill-15-
Treetop Village X4 _Take out for Sol Ring, Mana Vault, and 2 Ancient Tomb.  This will increase your chances of dropping first turn 3Sphere, Resistance, or Lotus, and the 4 Villages are just not needed.  Fat beats, ya, too late though, ya.

Mishra's Factory X4
Faery Conclave X4
Decree of Justice X3

The Draw-5-
Standstill X4
Ancestral Recall

Get out of Jail-1-
Balance

Combo-2-
Channel
Fastbond

[Spizzard]

I've been trying to think on how much green helps this deck, but I just don't see it.  I see it hurting more than helping.
      Channel has GG as the cost, so I don't see you being able to reliable cast this early, barring some gilded lotus use.
      Fastbond will help early, but I hardly see it as essential to this deck since you still have lock components to stall early game.
 
I think if you dropped green entirely, you could do something of the following

Mana Base-28-
Mishra's Workshop X4
Tolarian Academy
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Gilded Lotus X3
Tundra X4
Flooded Strand X4
Wasteland X4
Strip Mine X1
Island x4

The Lock-16-
Trinisphere X4
Sphere of Resistance X4
Chalice of the Void X4
Tangle Wire X4

The Kill-11-
Mishra's Factory X4
Faery Conclave X4
Decree of Justice X3

The Draw-5-
Standstill X4
Ancestral Recall

Get out of Jail-1-
Balance

Tangle Wire can be great with manlands (Factory) and also great with decree.  It slows the game down greatly.

Dropping Green Makes the Mana Base much more solid.  One of the strengths of this deck is its resistance to artifact hate.  It doesn't rely on them for the win so if boarded in, your opponent is left with 'dead' cards.[/b]

[walter]

The deck might run smoother if you ran 2-3 workshop in a more usual version of landstill and treated them as if they were rituals.  They could power out disks and maybe an early or late game threat, like a triskelion or juggernaut.  They would improve the aggro match for landstill and running 2 wouldn't effect your colored mana development.

Just a thought.

[defector]

Thank you very muh for the suggestions so far, last night I was able to test for an hour or so and have decided to drop green for now.  I may go back to it with later revisions, but for now at least I'll put green on hold.  The village was slow and the channel+decree didn't occur often enough for me to really feel the need for it.  Also, as was pointed out, the GG can be very steep, in particualr as some of the green was coming into play tapped.  It's to bad, because I like channel and feel it shoud see more play.  Oh well what the hell.  So here is version 1.1.

Still Working 1.1

Mana Base-27-
Mishra's Workshop X4
Tundra x4
Tolarian Academy
Flooded Strand X4
Gilded Lotus X3
Sol Ring
Mana Vault
Mox jet
Mox Pearl
Anceint Tomb X2
Wasteland X3
Stripmine
Island X1

Threats-12-
Decree of Justice X3
Mishra's factory X4
Juggernaut X4
Sundring Titan X1*

*I'm not sure about this guy, the deck can produce lots of mana, in particular for artifact spells, but drawing/topdecking him is an irritation.  Tinker uis restrcted, as it shoudl be. If I get Tinker+Titan, it will cement a lock under 3Sphere/Sphere of Resistance and set a fast clock, not sure about him though.

Control-11-
Trinisphere X4
Sphere fo Resistance X4
Swords to Plowshares X3

Draw-6-
Mind's Eye X1
Ancestral Recall
Standstill X4

Utility-4-
Balance
Mystical Tutor
Tinker
Enlightened Tutor

I tested this list this morning against rector/trix, unfortunately my friend doesn't play the deck well, so winning a few series doesn't say much.  I also hadn't put the titan in at this point, so no testing with him at all, unfortunately.  I've thought about Mindslaver and Memnarch in the Titan or Mind's Eye slot.  Without welder Titan doesn't wreck major havoc, but the idea here is to land one crippling blow and follow it with beatdown.
As a point of refernce, the deck that oroginally turned me to this idea was Zherbus's article on Nether Void.  The question I kept asking was, how do I optimize aggro-control, I played  a bunch of suicide flavors, didn't have a lot opf success, I watched TNT play well, but roll to combo(that was Long era though I don't kow how it's doing now), plus I hate TNT for personal reasons.  
I added the wasteland/strip to further empahisize control.  Spizzard has the right idea here.  I couldn't find room for the 4th strip.  Serracollector is right about gilded, turn 1 gilded isn't that diffcult and turn 2-4 is gaurenteed.  I haven't played agasint anyone running drains yet, i'm not sure about how gorrible that woudk hose me.
To Spizzard:  Belive me I love Tangle Wire, but it hurts my aggor an pushes metowrds stax.
To Walter:  The three workshop idea has merit, but I'm thinking that with green gone, I shoudl be stable at three colors, w/u/brown.  Further testing in particular aginst 5 strip.dec will decide this for me.
thanx very much for the help guys.
defector
P.S. I work all week, so it will be difficult for me to get some serious play with this until later in the, so please forgive me if the next release is slow in the coming.

[brianb]

I don't know how good standstill can be without any countermagic.  All your opponent has to do is wait around a few turns, get their hand and land all prepared, then let you draw away while they do something broken that wins them the game.

[defector]

The idea is that waiting to set yourself against the standstill will result in a game loss due to the pressure of the factory and decree.  I've thought about modifying the control component to:
Control-12-
Trinisphere X4
Sphere of Resistance X4
Force of Will x4

but the force of will has such bad synergy with the 3sphere and Resistance that I haven't tested that way and instead deleoped the current control component.  there are few decks that can give away turns to thsi deck under a standstill, you'll have to be able to win in one turn, which means that you are playing one or two different combo decks, if combo is a bad match up for standstill, I hope that 3sphere and resistance can cover the spread.
thanx,
defector

[defector]

I was able to get some testingdoen thsi morning after all.  I went three-1 against Dragon(No bazaar or power, u/b), trinsphere was great, as well as wasteland.  Decree wasn't that big a kill, but the Jugs were hard to argue with.  Sundering Tityan is a beast and I saw it twice and won twice.  I also played some random aggro to,but with mixed results.  Someone killed me with shadow creatures, ick!!  Anyway, I have built a sb now.

The Sideboard v1.0
Damping Matrix X3
Swords to Plowshares X1
Blue Elemental Blast X2
Jesters Cap X2
Force of Will X4
I have 3 open slots here, not sure yet.

The force looks weird, but some match ups would rather see 3sphere hit the board for Force of Will.  It's mildly ttransformational in nature and shoudl tighten up with more testing, I think I'll have a tourney shot at the end of the month, I'll post that report as well as the results of further testing.
thanx
defector

[defector]

Got some more testing done over lunch against a R/G beatdown.  I won more than I lost and the power level was comparable, which shoudl be in his advantage.  I was dissapoinmted byand large with Standstill and to some extent with Sphere of Resistance.  Wastelands are a problem, i didn't see Null rod at all, so I can't say how much losing Gilded Lotus will hurt me.  Wathing someone pay three to bolt a Jug is nice, Decree was not cast many times, sat in my hand.  It's too mana intensive for this deck, they will be the fist channge, though I'm not sure what for.  Sundering Titan is a beast.  OMG!
thanx
defector

[Justinsane]

Good idea for a deck.  Standstill is one of my favorite cards because it adds to the mental game.  I am currently working on a keeper type standstill deck.  Maybe ill mess around with this workshop standstill.

[defector]

Good luck with it, I've been getting some solid testing result now and like it.  I don't belive its as strong in the match up where tnt is strongest, but it answer combo as I recently played rector/trix/tendrils and was happy.  Trnisphere is huge and may be all the disruption I need.  I thin I'm going to swap a Decree for an Exalted Angel, we'll see.
defector

[Justinsane]

I like decree better then exalted because you can cycle with standstill in play.  Even though exalted is great, decree has more synergy i guess.

[defector]

I agree, right now I'm at one deceree, one exalted and i'm testing Duplicant in the spot that would be decree #2, still haven't made up my mind, two decree is a decent number, one isn't the end of the world.  I also like having a varied threat base, it makes it more versatile against the wide variety of archetypes we currently contend with.  The last round of testing was ugke, TNT cleaned my clock, it had all necwessary albeit proxied power and worked em over like a red headed stpechild.  Anyway, i'm looking into the sb to solev some aggro problems.
thanx
defector

[Apollyon]

Duplicant is a SB solution. It's not good vs very much, to be honest. I tossed one SB for the NE Champs, and I SBed it in once, against a TMD Slaver to kill Memnarch.

Cut the green and leave it out. Green doesn't have enough punch in this deck to run it over something else.

I'm not seeing any real use for Sundering Titan..., I'd cut him for Karn, who is one of my favorite creatures to see hit play. He makes your Gildeds 5/5 beatsticks, kill Moxen, and does otherwise good things.

Mind's Eye, IMO, isn't that great of a card. The mana cost, the limited usage, the continual costs to draw cards don't make it all that powerful for drawing.

Mana Crypt is very powerful, but you also need a way to sac it once you take too much damage. Karn provides sacage, as does Tinker. I can see why it's tough to like, but on average, it's a 14 turn clock. (win every other flip = 3 * 7 = 21 damage). N.B. The 14 turn clock is goldfishing as number of samples -> infinity. I've died from Crypts before, as has everyone else.

[defector]

Ok, thanx for all the attention so far. Sorry it has taken me so long to get back on thsi thread, I've done some serious testing and revision.  

Here is the current list:

Still Working V 1.1

Mana Base-30-
Mishra's workshop X4
Tolarian Academy
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Tundr X4
Adarkar Waste X2
Flooded Strand X2
Island X1
Wasteland X3
Stripmine
Mana Vault
Sol Ring
Ancient Tomb X1
Gilded Lotus X3
Mishra's Factory X4

The Draw-5-
Standstill X4
Ancestral Recall

The Beatdown-10-
Juggernaut X4
Exalted Angel X1
Sundering Titan X1
Bosh, Iron Golem X1
Memnarch X1
Triskellion X1
Decree of Justice X1

Control-11-
Trinisphere X4
Sphere of Resistance X4
Swords to Plowshares X3

Utility-4-
Mystical Tutor
Enlightened Tutor
Tinker
Balance

It's strong vs control and combo, has some trouble with aggro mainly due to speed concerns, and TNT is a bad match up, as such I have a tentative sideboard.

Sideboard:
Damping Matrix X4
Jetser's Cap X2
Swords to Plowshares X1
Tormod's Crypt X4
To be determined X4

This has stood up well in testing so far vs Dragon, Sligh, R/g Beatdown(non-tnt), Blue based control, and draw7.dec.
I'm going to buy 2 more adarkar waste and dump the fetches.  I would like more power obviously.  Other than that, I can't complain.  I welcome all comments.
thanx,
defector