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Author Topic: [Report] TMD n00b @ Dual Lotus in CT 3/20/04-3/21/04  (Read 10623 times)
Apollyon
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« on: March 21, 2004, 04:59:46 pm »

As the title says, I'm relatively new to TMD. I haven't been to more than 2 Power tourneys, mostly because I had a job on weekends until recently. So to celebrate my windfall of time, I decided that the dual lotus in CT sounded good. I'm not a new player by any means, but I've never actually played in any large T1 tourneys before. Over the day, I went 4-2-1 (4-2-2 if you count the Stifled Round). I would also like to note that I own no Power or Workshops.

I wake up early, have my breakfast of champions of pizza and Coke. I leave for the tourney at 9:15. The drive is fine, if long. I arrive (after getting lost in suburbia) at 11. I register and get some decent trades.

Island.dec (Stax):
//spells
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
1 Triskelion
1 Karn, Silver Golem
R Memory Jar
4 Goblin Welder
R Tinker
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Mindslaver
2 Meditate
3 Trinisphere
3 Sphere of Resistance
2 Fire/Ice
//mana
R Black Lotus (proxy)
R Mox Ruby (proxy)
3 Mishra's Workshop (all proxy)
4 Volcanic Island
R Tolarian Academy
R Sol Ring
R Lotus Petal
R Mana Crypt
R Mana Vault
2 Seat of the Synod
2 Island
2 Polluted Delta (2 and 2 is just because)
2 Flooded Strand
4 Shivan Reef
3 City of Traitors
SB:
1 Duplicant
2 Rack and Ruin
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Trinisphere
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Powder Keg (didn't work out as I had hoped, but I didn't see as much Keeper as I wanted)
1 Pentavus
4 REB


Round 1:
Travis playing Sui. He plays Juggernauts over Shades, anticipating a lot of Fire/Ice in the tourney, which seems to work against me.

Game 1: Welder/Jar wins it all. He gets an early Hyppie and The Rack against me, but I F/I his Hyppie, get out a Welder/Jar, and proceed to win off massive drawing and my lock. I get the lock, and he scoops.

Game 2: He gets out a turn 1 Planar Void and an early Juggy and starts to beat. I get an early Pentavus. He swings with Juggy while I have out Pentavus, I block, make Pentavites, and race his Rack and my Vault.

Record 1-0

Round 2 v1:
Playing Jason with TMD Slavery. I threw the notes away, because it didn't matter at all. I noticed that the Trike that I threw into the deck main wins games vs. Welder.dec.

After I get into a tie after time, Andystok announces that the round was fubar and we'd have to do it again. By the time it's 4. I'm sitting there talking with Steve, Zherbus, and crew. Eastman gets his refund and walks off. Props to Andystok for giving refunds to the people who want to leave. Slops to Andystok for the Phantom Round. It made the Round 1 last roughly 4 hours, as the real Round 2 started around 4ish in the afternoon.

Round 2 v2:
Corey playing Slavery.

Game 1: We both keep. I drop a Volc, give him the go. He plays an Island Says go. I topdeck a Workshop, dump a Trini, he curses. A Smokestack and Trike following that give me the win. He tells me after that he could have gotten a turn 1 Pentavus, but he didn't because of FoW. He didn't misplay either, if I had a FoW, he'd be living off the top, which is a bad situation for him.

Game 2: Welder/Jar wins it for him. I play a Sphere of Resistance, he Mana Drains and plays a Jar from the Drain mana. He proceeds to beat my face in with Welder/Jar.

Game 3: It's all about the Trike this game. Trike == win.

Record 2-0

Round 3:
Jason (yet another one) playing FCG.

Game 1:
Trinisphere == win vs FCG. He tries to recover, but he's buried under my superior lockage.

Game 2:
I get a regular Sphere, but he gets out the Food Chain and wins promptly.

Game 3:
I get early Trini, but get mana screwed and he pulls out the win.

Record 2-1.

Round 4:
Playing Brett who is playing Keeper.

Game 1:
He gets the Library, Ancestral, Walk, and the counters. I can't do anything about that.

Game 2:
He gets the Library and Walk again. We both start doing stuff. I get an early Powder Keg to try and remove some Moxen or Soldiers/Angels. He only has a Pearl in play. He Shattering Pulses with Buyback, in response, I sac the Keg. He puts it back in his hand, and I tell him that it's countered on resolution. He Cunning Wishes for a Vampiric Tutor, Tutors, and puts it right in the grave. He picks up his deck and starts searching. I tell him that  the Vamp has already resolved and he chose not to grab anything. I call over the judge, the judge agrees with me, but he needs to get the real judge, who turns out to be Andystok. Andystok gives me a game loss for unsportsmanlike conduct, as I'm not supposed "use DCI rules bullshit" on "my friend here" .

Record 2-2

Round 5:
Eric playing Oshawa.

Game 1:
It's all about Trinisphere + Brown Time Walk (Tangle Wire). I get the lock fast enough to race his damage. He scoops.

Game 2:
Board in Pentavus, which is a Lifesaver. He gets an early Tormod's, and I get 2 Welders. I discard Pentavus, Weld it, he Crypts, I Weld it again, it comes in, and proceeds to smash face. Welder/Pentavus wins the round for me this time.

Record 3-2

Round 6:
Warren playing U/W Landstill.

Game 1:
He gets the lock with his Time Walk and Orim's Chants. I run out of steam.

Game 2:
This game is all about me and my lock. I get it fast and run him over.

Game 3:
I get out Karn, and he gets some beats. I make my Wire a creature and swing in. I even send my Welder for enough pain to make it worth it. As a last-ditch attempt, he gets his Meddling Mage, plays it naming the REBs that killed him earlier in the round. I held an REB for just an occasion like this and counter it. He scoops.

Props to Warren. He was a really nice guy and a good opponent.

Round 7:

Record 4-2

Round 7:
Bryce playing Slavery variant.

We split the first 2 (I can't read my notes at all. It was around 11ish that we did this round, and I've been playing off and on for about 12 hours now). I remember that we split games 1 and 2.

Game 3: He Jars once to try and go off. I get a lot of good stuff, like my Trike and Karn. He slavers me, but I have nothing, so it's a Time Walk. I Tinker into a Tormod's Crypt at time, and go for the draw. I give him the official win in exchange for half his prize. He makes 10th, and I get a pack of Judgement, Visions, and Planeshift. I open a Magnigoth Treefolk, Diamond Kaleidoscope, and Asian Living Wish.
Props to Warren for not running off with his prize.

Record 4-2-1

See someone else's report for Top 8, as it will be more complete.

Props:
The judge, for handling all the rules issues that Stax has. I was calling on him pretty much twice a round for rules.
Andystok for being a class act and giving refunds and free drinks because of the Phantom Round.
Dave "Memnarch" for not being pissed about me get two cheese burgers instead of a double cheeseburger at BK.
The T8 guy with the kickass Power proxies.

Note:
Yeah... Now that I think about it, Andystok will get slops for judging.

Slops:
Andystok for not having enough judging (actually, any early on...). A level 2+ judge is a really good idea for something this big
The designers of mapquest, as their directions sucked.
The designers of Newington, as Rich "The Atog Lord" got lost trying to find the BK.
The guy sitting next to me Round 4 who borrowed my pen and walked off with it.
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Smash
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« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2004, 05:17:04 pm »

Quote

Andystok gives me a game loss for unsportsmanlike conduct, as I'm not supposed "use DCI rules bullshit" on "my friend here" .


Thats why I don't play crappy unsanctioned tournies if possible. I would have kicked andy in the nuts.

You obviously lose the call because vamp requires you to get a card (not optional, and no way to fail the search). But penalties shouldn't be based on who's friend it is.
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« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2004, 05:19:44 pm »

Welcome to TMD,

Great job on the finish...even though proxies were alowed I"m assuming that this build was mostly budgetized because of the comment on lacking workshops and power...I'd be interested if you posted your list...

I wish I could've been there but shit happens(like it usually does with me and power tournies) and I couldn't make it...

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« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2004, 05:31:31 pm »

Nice report.  I'm glad you're getting an opportunity to play in big events.  Hopefully you'll continue to hit the big NE events (and hopefully they won't run so long...).  You never said where you're from, though.  Also, kudos on playing budget stax; it takes stones to play a deck full or 3, 4, and 5 cc cards with no power.
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« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2004, 05:47:57 pm »

Hey, just a quick rules correction.

Quote
As a last-ditch attempt, he gets his Meddling Mage, plays it naming the REBs that killed him earlier in the round. I held an REB for just an occasion like this and counter it. He scoops.


This is blatently wrong. Once you have allowed him to name the card, your oppertunity has passed to counter the spell. In addition to this, meddling mage has a static ability with a replacment effect, not a triggered ability. This means that you can not respond to the 'Name a card' ability, as it is named as a part of the resolution. This means you cannot respond to the ability.

Other than that, GJ at the tourny Smile
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« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2004, 06:55:00 pm »

Quote from: Chee|s|e
Hey, just a quick rules correction.

Quote
As a last-ditch attempt, he gets his Meddling Mage, plays it naming the REBs that killed him earlier in the round. I held an REB for just an occasion like this and counter it. He scoops.


This is blatently wrong. Once you have allowed him to name the card, your oppertunity has passed to counter the spell. In addition to this, meddling mage has a static ability with a replacment effect, not a triggered ability. This means that you can not respond to the 'Name a card' ability, as it is named as a part of the resolution. This means you cannot respond to the ability.

Other than that, GJ at the tourny Smile


While this is true, a lot of people just go and name the card for the Mage without asking the opponent if it resolves.  In this case, they're just giving you extra information in case you want to counter.  If the opponent did indeed name the card without checking to see if it resolved, then dude had every right to make him back up and counter it.
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« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2004, 07:23:02 pm »

Trinisphere == win vs FCG. He tries to recover, but he's buried under my superior lockage.

Wrong. It was not superior lockage, it was just plain lockage. I couldn't draw a 4th land until it was to late.
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Matt
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« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2004, 07:26:21 pm »

Yeah, I was going to try and call him out on that but then I realized that what happened was: opponent plays Meddling Mage and says some words that don't impact the game. Now he gets to respond. Had he not REB'd the Mage on the stack, the opponent would have resolved the Mage - and been able to name whatever he wanted (he would not be forced into choosing REB).

Thus, you can 'bluff' with a Mage - he could have said "Smokestack" or something as he was playing it and then passed priority - making Apollyon think it was OK to let resolve - and then named REB anyway. I've never thought of Mage-bluffing like this but it's something to keep in mind (works with Therapy too).

Just a little extra-game strategy. Very Happy
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« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2004, 07:41:50 pm »

A word on the "DCI Rules bullshit" senario:

I think that what you did is by far more wrong than the action that andy took- you are deliberately TRYING to take a game from someone who you know would have won, not by outplaying or mising, but simply by screwing him over. I understand the tourney is for large stakes, but throwing a card in the graveyard is'nt a big deal- if he wanted to, he could just argue to the judge that it was still in play, but just close to his graveyard. Also, you must get something with Vamp, so you lose either way.

If you tried to do this against me in a tourney, I would have realistically punched you in the face. You cannot get more dick than that- I can see getting somone on a major error in processes, but that is just out of hand.


Otherwise, welcome to TMD and good job at the tourney. :-/
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« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2004, 07:43:41 pm »

Quote from: Matt
Yeah, I was going to try and call him out on that but then I realized that what happened was: opponent plays Meddling Mage and says some words that don't impact the game. Now he gets to respond. Had he not REB'd the Mage on the stack, the opponent would have resolved the Mage - and been able to name whatever he wanted (he would not be forced into choosing REB).

Thus, you can 'bluff' with a Mage - he could have said "Smokestack" or something as he was playing it and then passed priority - making Apollyon think it was OK to let resolve - and then named REB anyway. I've never thought of Mage-bluffing like this but it's something to keep in mind (works with Therapy too).

Just a little extra-game strategy. Very Happy


No, this has been discusses EXTENSIVELY on the judges list (I can provide linkage if you want it). This is misrepresentation. The penalty is at LEAST a game loss.
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« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2004, 08:09:08 pm »

Smash-- twice you have posted in this thread.

Please-- only respond when you have SOME IDEA of what you are talking about.

'my friend here' is a term used by society to mean... the other guy in this conversation. Andy gave a kid a game loss for going out of his way to try to fuck over his opponent, without winning a game of magic. Since this was a tournament of magic, and someone was trying to win games based on imaginary rules bullshit, Andy layed the smack down.
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« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2004, 09:42:13 pm »

Gratz to you on your standings..
It's unfortunate that one must result to.. hassling an opponent as a last ditch effort but one could say it was high stakes..
Either way, i'm not going to judge your character, good job at the tourney.
Did you end up proxying out power/shops?  I was very curious at this after a few previous comments.
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« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2004, 09:49:56 pm »

Quote
Trinisphere == win vs FCG. He tries to recover, but he's buried under my superior lockage.


It is superior lockage, as FCG really doesn't have all that efficient of a lock.

Quote
While this is true, a lot of people just go and name the card for the Mage without asking the opponent if it resolves. In this case, they're just giving you extra information in case you want to counter. If the opponent did indeed name the card without checking to see if it resolved, then dude had every right to make him back up and counter it.


That's what happened. He lays the MM naming REB, I tell him to back up, as I have an REB in hand.

Quote
even though proxies were alowed I"m assuming that this build was mostly budgetized because of the comment on lacking workshops and power...I'd be interested if you posted your list...


List will be up soon. Smemnarch looked at it, and only commented about adding Ancient Tombs, and my lack of Power.
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« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2004, 10:05:58 pm »

Quote
'my friend here' is a term used by society to mean... the other guy in this conversation. Andy gave a kid a game loss for going out of his way to try to fuck over his opponent, without winning a game of magic. Since this was a tournament of magic, and someone was trying to win games based on imaginary rules bullshit, Andy layed the smack down.


I implied nothing. I merely said what happened. As for it being "imaginary rules bullshit", I'm not sure where you are coming from. All cards are put into the graveyard upon resolution, unless there is a replacement effect, such as Yawgie's Will or Buyback. When you search your library, you can choose not to find anything. When you play a tutor and put it immediately into the graveyard without touching your library, you state that it is done
resolving and you choose to find nothing. As to why, I don't know.

EDIT: WHEN YOU SEARCH YOUR LIBRARY WITH VAMPIRIC TUTOR YOU CAN NOT CHOOSE NOT TO FIND ANYTHING. YOU CAN ONLY CHOOSE NOT TO FIND ANYTHING IN A SITUATION WHERE YOU ARE REQUIRED TO LOCATE SOMETHING THAT ISN'T NESSASARILY IN YOUR DECK. IT IS OBVIOUS TO BOTH PLAYERS THAT YOU HAVE A FUCKING CARD IN YOUR DECK.

Quote
I think that what you did is by far more wrong than the action that andy took- you are deliberately TRYING to take a game from someone who you know would have won, not by outplaying or mising, but simply by screwing him over. I understand the tourney is for large stakes, but throwing a card in the graveyard is'nt a big deal- if he wanted to, he could
just argue to the judge that it was still in play, but just close to his graveyard. Also, you must get something with Vamp, so you lose either way.


You may agree or disagree on my doing it. However, a game loss for
unsportmanlike conduct is harsh for a first offense. However, the argument that it was still in play, but close to his graveyard isn't true, as it was IN his graveyard, not near it, but right on top of it. You don't need to get something with a Vamp or any other tutor.

Note: added decklist.
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« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2004, 10:16:50 pm »

gratz on the finish, but a couple nitpicks..

Second place guy.guy was Jacob Orlove.  His power's real.

Bryce was playing his own build of slaver, with Cunning Wish.  He'll take offense at you calling it meandeck slaver, because it's not.

Feel free to slop for not having enough judges.  Entering round four, I got fed up with the unanswered judge calls and dropped to answer them myself.  This tournament was undermanned and underattended because 90% of Stok's crew were there just to trade with the masses and were completely and utterly unprepared to organize a tournament of this size, nor did they apparently care enough to have some of their trading folk do some grunt work.  Over the Edge Games has some work to do before they can try to run something of this size again.

Also, Mykeatog, a pleasure to have you back.  Laying the smackdown for unnecessary rules lawyering is in fact the awesome.
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« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2004, 10:25:57 pm »

Apollyon: You must be new to T1. Not in the sense that you haven't played the format of cards before, but to the Type One community.

What you did was fine by the rules- 100% legal- albeit a little jerkoff-ish, and wouldn't be a big deal, or even unexpected for that matter, at a T2 tournament. Obviously you were playing for a large prize and looking to bring your A game, but Type 1 players "look out" for each other, so to say. Generally the feel to a Type 1 match is a little more relaxed than than of Standard- God forbid you might actually make a friend playing a social game.
Maybe we let minor slip ups like your opponent's incident with the Vamp tutor go unpunished because we want a fair game where we win through skill, maybe we assume they'd do the same for us, or maybe it's just because we Type 1 players kick so much ass- the reason isn't entirely relevant. The point is, in the future, be more willing to let the small stuff go- most of us would be willing to do it for you.
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« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2004, 10:29:12 pm »

Quote


Second place guy.guy was Jacob Orlove. His power's real.

Bryce was playing his own build of slaver, with Cunning Wish. He'll take offense at you calling it meandeck slaver, because it's not.

Feel free to slop for not having enough judges. Entering round four, I got fed up with the unanswered judge calls and dropped to answer them myself. This tournament was undermanned and underattended because 90% of Stok's crew were there just to trade with the masses and were completely and utterly unprepared to organize a tournament of this size, nor did they apparently care enough to have some of their trading folk do some grunt work. Over the Edge Games has some work to do before they can try to run something of this size again.

Also, Mykeatog, a pleasure to have you back. Laying the smackdown for unnecessary rules lawyering is in fact the awesome.


First part, it was 1 in the morning, for all I know, it could have been Kai Budde with the nice Power. I'll fix it.

Second part, I didn't see any Cunning Wishes, but the rest looked like straight TMD Slaver from what I saw. Sorry, Bryce, I'll fix it.

Third part, I noticed that I did get better as it went on. I'm being a bit merciful as it's his first large tournament. Thanks for dropping to judge, btw. Props to you, then.

Fourth part, I'm going to stay out of. It happened, I'm going to move on.

Quote
You seem to be taking too much judging on yourself. Someone had a COTV for 1 out, and you cast sol ring. Next turn they called you on it, and you said it was too late.   That's not how it works, and if you abuse the rules like that, you will enjoy lots of DQs.


Like I said, I'm going to stay out of it. Although the Sol Ring was a major oversight on my part and his part. Usually the ruling is that if you overlook something like that and it's used, then warnings are issued to both people. Although at some higher-level events, a game loss is issued. DQs aren't the first thing you hand down, unless you do something horribly evil, like adding cards to drafts or beating people up.

Quote
False. With mystical tutor yes, you can't prove the CONTENTS of your deck. With demonic or vamp, if you have a library, you _HAVE_ to choose a card. No if's, ands, or butts.


I'm going to check on that... I know that for fetches, you don't have to find anything. Same thing with most other land tutors.
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« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2004, 10:29:25 pm »

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It is superior lockage, as FCG really doesn't have all that efficient of a lock.


fcg plays with lock components now? or are you talking about root maze?

the tutoring for cards issue : any time you search for a card TYPE, you can choose not to find anything
vamp and demonic, you have to find something because they state A card
fetches under slaver can find nothing, for example

the powder keg and s. pulse is a valid point
maybe you just got frustrated with your opponent and wanted to cheese him for the vamp, but that's not quite right

also, the 'bluffing' issue HAS been discussed quite a bit on the judge's list
jury's not out, but imo the bluffer deserves to get at least a procedural error - major
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« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2004, 10:31:05 pm »

Hi.  I'm the guy that this dufus tried to screw over with the Vampiric Tutor.  Let me say right here it took every ounce of self restraint not to go across tha table and wring his neck.  This is a game.  There are rules that need to be enforced, but this nickel dime BS is ridiculous!  I was glad to hand him a game loss for this incident, but what he failed to mention was at the time he had roughly 2 - 3 permenants on the board to my 3 moxes, 8 lands, a full hand and active library, had the call not gone my way his time was limited.  People like this are bad.  They are bad at life.  I have zero respect for them.  Here's a free lesson, watch what you do man, life sometimes isn't as forgiving as a game loss.  As a side note, there was no arguing over a buy-back shattering pulse, the only time aside from the tutor incident that a judge was called over was for upkeep stacking order (tangle wire & smokestack) I should have known the rules here and just wanted some clarification.  All in all The tourny had it's drawbacks (the lost round) but it was type one with a bunch of people, type one magic is fun, anytime I can play it I'm a happy person, but people like this can tarnish a good time.  In closing I'd like to say the spirit of the game is more important than the letter.  Thankyou.

Brett Attmore (not joe, though that's what they put as my first name)
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« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2004, 10:39:48 pm »

Petty arguing in ths topic will bring nothing but the wrath of a mod down upon this topic. Whats done is done, get over it. Nobody likes to listen to people whine and bitch.

On topic: Nice job with your finish. I was there playing Dryad hate, but I got so sick of the extreme lack of organization that was taking place that I dropped and left. Mad props to anyone who managed to stick it out through the whole thing. I know Kerz and Eastman both left early, just to name a few. Stok has a lot of work to do if hes gonna make something like this work in the future.
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« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2004, 10:41:46 pm »

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Brett Attmore (not joe, though that's what they put as my first name)


Sorry about your name being wrong. I only know what's written on my sheets.

Quote
Apollyon: You must be new to T1. Not in the sense that you haven't played the format of cards before, but to the Type One community.

What you did was fine by the rules- 100% legal- albeit a little jerkoff-ish, and wouldn't be a big deal, or even unexpected for that matter, at a T2 tournament. Obviously you were playing for a large prize and looking to bring your A game, but Type 1 players "look out" for each other, so to say. Generally the feel to a Type 1 match is a little more relaxed than than of Standard- God forbid you might actually make a friend playing a social game.

Maybe we let minor slip ups like your opponent's incident with the Vamp tutor go unpunished because we want a fair game where we win through skill, maybe we assume they'd do the same for us, or maybe it's just because we Type 1 players kick so much ass- the reason isn't entirely relevant. The point is, in the future, be more willing to let the small stuff go- most of us would be willing to do it for you.


Yes, I'm rather new to large T1 tournaments. I've played smaller ones before, but nothing like this. I am an ex-Regionals type player, which has been most of my play time. I will keep that in mind in the future. My issue wasn't with the unsportsmanlike conduct call, as that was being a hardliner. I understand that much, don't get me wrong. My issue was with the game loss. A warning would have been fine, as that is what it did deserve, I won't contest that.
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« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2004, 10:46:57 pm »

From the Comprehensive Rules:
Quote
Search
If you're required to search a zone not revealed to all players for cards matching some criteria, you aren't
required to find those cards even if they're present; however, if you do choose to find cards, you must
reveal those cards to all players. Even if you don't find any cards, you are still considered to have searched
the zone.
     If you're simply searching for "any card," you must find a card (if possible).
     If you're required to search for a specific number of cards, you must choose that many cards (or as
many as possible.)
Example: If an effect causes you to search a player's library for all duplicates of a particular card
and remove them from the game, you may choose to leave some of them alone, but if an effect causes
you to search your library for three cards and it contains at least three, you can't choose less than
three.
     If an effects states to search for a [type, supertype, or subtype] card, it can only find cards that have that
type, supertype, or subtype. It can't find a card that has a name equal to that type, supertype, or subtype
unless that card also has the type, supertype, or subtype.
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« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2004, 10:53:32 pm »

Matt, thanks for the clarification.
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« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2004, 11:13:28 pm »

Feel free to delete my posts and repost the exact same thing by something else, real mature dick.
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« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2004, 12:05:27 am »

Matt: I was about to post the exact same thing.

Anyhow, here's a sportsmanship question:

Playing against a Trix deck. Dude casts Cabal Therapy, and then flashes it back, with an Academy Rector in play.

Before he looks for the enchantment, he names the card. I then tell him that he missed the oportunity to look for the enchantment, since that had to be resolved before the naming of the card on the resolution of the Therapy.

And I feel so bloody bad about it... ugh...

Anyhow, as before...
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« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2004, 12:22:03 am »

Quote from: Smash
Feel free to delete my posts and repost the exact same thing by something else, real mature dick.

What? I didn't delete anything of yours.
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« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2004, 12:42:47 am »

Quote from: Razvan


Anyhow, here's a sportsmanship question:

Playing against a Trix deck. Dude casts Cabal Therapy, and then flashes it back, with an Academy Rector in play.

Before he looks for the enchantment, he names the card. I then tell him that he missed the oportunity to look for the enchantment, since that had to be resolved before the naming of the card on the resolution of the Therapy.


What's the sportsmanship question... the opponent doesn't know their own deck here.  I wouldn't let him look for an enchantment since that window to do so was over (and I wouldn't expect him to let me if I misplayed like that)....much like I wouldn't let someone play madness spells if they had passed priority, nor would I expect them to let me....

if you don't enforece a certain level of play and don't play things out specifically, then you end up with things like "ruling on intent" and stuff that happened in Richard's and Carl's top4 match at GenCon

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« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2004, 01:00:26 am »

The Cabal Therapy thing is acceptable, and a judge has to enforce the rule.  As Moobius says, the rules are there for a reason, and that reason is your protection.

However, the situation with Vampiric Tutor should never exist because the player attempted to rules lawyer without knowing the rules.
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« Reply #28 on: March 22, 2004, 01:05:00 am »

Quote from: Kowal
The Cabal Therapy thing is acceptable, and a judge has to enforce the rule.  As Moobius says, the rules are there for a reason, and that reason is your protection.

However, the situation with Vampiric Tutor should never exist because the player attempted to rules lawyer without knowing the rules.


True, I'm with you on that one...I was just responding to the therapy/rector.
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« Reply #29 on: March 22, 2004, 04:43:16 am »

Quote
I tell him that the Vamp has already resolved and he chose not to grab anything. I call over the judge, the judge agrees with me, but he needs to get the real judge, who turns out to be Andystok. Andystok gives me a game loss for unsportsmanlike conduct, as I'm not supposed "use DCI rules bullshit" on "my friend here" .


That Game Loss is bullshit. Players are supposed to know the rules. The card goes to the graveyard at the end of the resolution of the spell. The search is optionnal. Under high RELs, I'd ALWAYS call the judge if my opponent does the same. ALWAYS. This is not Unsporting Conduct or whatever else. This is just playing under the rules of the game. Here

Cards goes into the graveyard at the end of the resolution. If the card is in the graveyard, then the resolution is over. Period. Magic is not a fun game or a casual game in tournaments conditions. In tourneys, you play for winning, and if that involves calling the judge because your opponent doesn't know the rules, then that's fine. I've won lots of games with $T4KS because my opponent repeatdly drew their cards before my upkeep effect would resolve. Is that bad? No. It's just playing under the rules. First time you draw, Warning. Second time, Game Loss. Be careful boy, we're not playing for fun.

Of course, if the tourney was held under low RELs, then thing are different, but in every case this is not worth a Game Loss. It's Unsporting Conduct - Minor, which is worth a Warning.

How is the Cabal Therapy stuff different? It's not. Both cases involve optional choices. In the Vampiric Tutor case, the opponent doesn't know the card is fetched before the Vampiric goes to the graveyard. In the Cabal Therapy's case, the opponent doesn't know the enchantment is fetched before he names a card. Really similar uh?
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