Shuffling In T1...

[Dxfiler]

Still being relatively new to the T1 atmosphere, I become more and more fascinated at the environment and the players as the days go by.  My recently new-found knowledge came last night when testing T1 with Mr. Atog Lord.  He hands me his slavery and I instinctively start to shuffle... he points out 2 things: 1) Don't shuffle during a testing game.  I knew this already and shuffled purely out of habit.  Much more importantly-

2) "That reminds me, you really aren't supposed to shuffle your opponent's deck in type 1."

I had to actually pause and think about his statement.  When I asked him to elaborate, Rich's explanation was that it's disrespectful to do so since there apparently is no element of dis-trust in type 2.  He said most players would be offended if I were to do shuffle their deck.

When I was at the T1 N. East championship, I shuffled every single one of my opponent's decks.  I didn't do anything extensive, and no I did not riffle :-p  Although no one gave me any guff about shuffling their deck, I did find it very odd that basically NO ONE shuffled me back.  I had not thought about it until recently, but literally NONE of my opponents of varying skill shuffled me, and instead opted to cut.  Also looking back, I realized when watching Rich in the top 8. practically none of his opponents ever shuffled him and he never shuffled any of them.

I have very mixed feelings on this apparent T1 phenomenon.  First off, let me say that I honestly admire type 1 players more than any other type of MTG player for reasons such as this.  The fact that the entire community  basically trusts one another is astounding and a show of how tightly knit this community is.

On the other hand, I must say I'm not sure I agree with this because it potentially allows any opponent to cheat through easy stacking methods.  I realize that type 1 has probably the lowest percent of cheating in the entire realm of MTG, but the fact that absolutely no shuffling takes place in big, competitive tourneys really baffles me.  Even if you trust your opponents, and I did trust every single person I played both days that weekend, shuffling them makes randomization a non-isse.  There are plenty of players, regardless the format, who simply just don't shuffle enough but have no evil intentions.  By shuffling your opponent, you increase the odds, albeit slightly, that the game will be a real game without god hands.  

It's obvious that t1 cards are expensive, and I'm sure that's a factor into why shuffling doesn't occur, but the respect your opponent thing is a very interesting concept and I'm not really sure where I stand on it.  Coming from a competitive limited background, shuffling is second nature to me.  I do it to anyone I play, regardless of who they are.  I don't do it as a sign of dis-respect, but as an effort to make the game a real one where thinking is involved and not silly god hands.  Now that I play type 1, my stance on this may change.  I may start not shuffling my opponent's at all, but it's very hard for me to just completely trust my opponent with the randomization process.  Again, I trust type 1 players a hell of alot more than any other type of mtg player, but I'm not sure if im ready to just completely never shuffle them out of respect.  

I'm eagerly awaiting to hear responses on this, just don't flame me :-p

- Dxfiler

[Zw4liki]

if you have a problem completely trusting your opponent, then cut extensively? I don't think theres really a right or wrong answer here, but I'm not necessarily offended when someone shuffles my deck; generally I just cringe because I think back to how many hours of bitchwork I had to do to get power. But aside from the cost of t1 cards, I don't think shuffling your opponents deck is really disrespectful...

did that make any sense?

[jpmeyer]

Why does this need to be a trust thing?  According to the floor rules, you are actually required to shuffle your opponent's deck.  I always shuffle my opponent's deck just because I've been conditioned to do it from playing other formats and I expect my opponents to do the same.

[johnstown713]

There is a big amount of trust in type 1 because it is a more relaxed format.  The people are a lot cooler than type 2 which is where I am from.  Everyone shuffles then.  Not only is it not cool to shuffle an opponents valuable cards but why shuffle when all cards in type 1 are bombs.  I guess no one really cares that much we are just more relaxed and have a great deal of repect for each other.

[KitzuneNinja]

Why do you shuffle someones deck?

If im doing it (in the rare instances I actually do it) is because my opponents shuffles my deck and to make the time pass I shuffle his/hers as well, thus preventing me from looking at for something else to do during this boring ritual.

Polite opponents I've met asked if it was okay if they shuffled. For some reason I find this less offensive than, say, if a random scrub grabbs your decks and starts off slamming cards down to the table in a hasty mode. Perhaps this is just me

[KitzuneNinja]

Why does this need to be a trust thing?

For some people, this is all about (dis)trusting other people. Thats them, so I wont defend their point of view, Im just pointing out that those dudes excist

[Lucentspirit]

I always shuffle my opponents deck. I try to do it gently because the cards are oftan so expensive, but I have always shuffled my opponent's deck and I always will. By the rules of the game I have every right to shuffle and I have never heard a single complaint.
    One the other side, when someone shuffles my deck, I ask them to return the favor and be gentle with my cards. I also ask that they shuffle the deck in a manner that there is no way they can see the cards in the deck (ie: no  side shuffling). In one tournament I had someone side shuffle my deck extensivly and sure enough I drew 13 cards before my first land. I can never prove it, but, I do beleive they had shuffled all my land cards to one side of the deck. Also, just getting a glimpse of a deck specific card (like Worldgorger Dragon) can oftan give an opponent an unfair advantage.

[Crovax]

Yeah.. Slops to me for riffle shuffling. Kerz's deck this weekend.. I still feel bad about it. Considering there was power in it. I feel like such an asshole.. But I shuffle decks out of habbit. I've played on many a high calibur tourney. So it's a habit.  

[Magi]

If I feel that my opponent didn't shuffle sufficiently, I'll just do a quick pile shuffle. I never EVER riffle, even my own cards, and I'm quick to fling shit at someone who tries to riffle shuffle my decks.


Otherwise, I just do a super 3-4stack cut of his/her deck.

[kl0wn]

Being grizzled and all old-school and such, I take tremendous offense to people shuffling my deck. I don't give a flying crap if it's in the floor rules or not, it implies that they think I stacked my deck in some way. It's fine for Type 2 and whatnot where the name of the game is being a dick, but it just rubs me the wrong way in Type 1.

Not to mention, people usually take a really long time shuffling, and when added on to the ridiculously excessive time it takes most people to make decisions in Type 1, you end up with a lot of draws. Especially when you have the game in the bag, but you need like one or two extra turns to actually kill your opponent and they sit there all smugly on extra turn 3 because they just got away with a draw when they quite clearly lost.

Personally, when somebody shuffles my deck, it makes me very hostile towards them and it feels less like a game of Magical cards and more like a game of rules-lawyering. Thusly, I look for every opportunity to call a judge over and get the person who shuffled my deck a game loss or even better, disqualified. And people make a LOT of mistakes in this format, so it's not all that difficult in theory. Unfortunately, judges are a bit more lenient in Type 1, so it's a bit more difficult in practice. Basically, when some stick shuffles my deck, I go from playing at REL 1 to REL 5. Live by the rules, die by the rules, bitch.

A quick triple, quadruple or even quintuple cut is enough of a shuffle while still remaining friendly. Touching someone's deck/cards beyond that really is an affront to Type 1 etiquette.

[firebird365]

I think it's an OK thing to do, but I'm not sure how the T1 community as a whole stands on shuffling another person's deck. As some of the people said, most of it is out of respect for the other person's cards and the effort that they had to go through to get them. I don't usually mind when an opponent shuffles my deck, but I feel a lot better about it if they ask me first, because it indicates that they realize that I care about what's in it, and they usually handle it well. If you ask before shuffling, no one is really going to refuse, and it's a lot more polite. But personally, I just double cut an opponent's deck.

[Jakedasnake]

I have to agree with kl0wn, except for the girlzzed veteran thing.

The only thing I do is a double cut, really friendly like. I always trust my opponent, because if they think winning because of cheating is a win...then they're really only hurting themselves.

The only reason I cut is so nasty thoughts don't pop into my head. Nice hands are un-avoidable, but at least this way cheating is nearly ruled out.

Type 1 is just so much more like a family than any other format, and I truly believe that shuffling is an afront to this community.

[gregg]

kl0wn.. its people like you that push other players out of the game.  they are tired of having their opponents be dicks about that type of stuff.

Yes, I have won a few matches at PTQ's because my opponents were being unsportsmanlike, multiple times in the match (even as far as calling me names, and talking loudly and rudly.)

You can do whatever you want to call a judge over to try to give you the game win/match win, but that makes you less of a player than them, and that makes you look like shit.

So if you don't want them calling the judge over every 3 minutes, like you.  And you want to look like an asshole, because he shuffled your deck (which is required by the rules to do, REGARDLESS of the format).. then so be it.

Chances are, you'll make more mistakes at the game then your opponent, who's trying to play the game and not be worried about wether you did something that could be illegal.

[Aside:  Speaking as a judge, and not as a player.. I personally get offended, and upset when I get called to the same table multiple times in a short period of time.  So, as a judge.. try not to do this, it just makes the judges a little more upset, especially when you call them over for stupid things.]

[CrazyCarl]

Any tournament I play in with a prize of Power and up, I will shuffle every round, once after the first shuffle effect they have, then cut after that(sometimes).  I do this for a few reasons:

1) As JP said, it's proper DCI procedure, and I play by their rules, nuff said.

2) The prizes are more than PTQ's give out, and they require shuffling, so why not at a Mox tourney?

3) Most people can't shuffle properly AT ALL.  I figure I'm doing them a favor, and I take good care of cards.

4) I don't have to blame them for broken hands

Yeah, I don't shuffle at our local tournaments or when playing for fun. And heck, I don't even cut the deck sometimes.[/b]

[Kowal]

I actually agree with kl0wn.

When I sit there and shuffle my deck, I watch my opponent shuffle too, because nothing else is going on.  And considering they just watched me shuffle too, I get a little annoyed when someone picks up my deck and shuffles again.  You just watched me randomize, asshat.  Cut the deck and move on, we've got two or three games to play.

Worse yet is when they pile shuffle.  Yes, wasting an additional two to four minutes is a great idea.  Chug wang sauce, prick.  Gimme your pile, I'm gonna riffle it as much as possible while you're 'randomizing'

Come to think of it, the next time someone pile shuffles my deck, I'm going to get involved.  That shit's illegal anyway, it's one of the single easiest ways to stack a deck.  Waste as much time as you want as long as the round ends with the judge telling you that you lost.

[runT1ME]

I recently played at my first t1 event.  No one shuffled my deck.  Perhaps it was because they saw me shuffling my deck.  Some didn't even cut my deck.  There is something really cool about the t1 community always being friendly to each other, even in the most tense matches.  I would never think of shuffling someone elses cards.  If they cut my deck, i'll return the gesture, but thats about it.

[kl0wn]

[Aside: Speaking as a judge, and not as a player.. I personally get offended, and upset when I get called to the same table multiple times in a short period of time. So, as a judge.. try not to do this, it just makes the judges a little more upset, especially when you call them over for stupid things.

Stupid things like drawing extra cards, drawing before your untap, having marked sleeves, using a Cunning Wish as a Demonic Tutor, stalling and trying to take shit back? Yeah, I can see how you can get offended and upset by people calling you over because of that kind of stuff.

You can do whatever you want to call a judge over to try to give you the game win/match win, but that makes you less of a player than them, and that makes you look like shit.

I know, I'm less of a player for wanting my opponents to auto-lose for being bad players who only think so far as to shuffle my deck for five minutes whenever they get the opportunity.

And finally:

kl0wn.. its people like you that push other players out of the game. they are tired of having their opponents be dicks about that type of stuff.

Well, as should have been implied by the offense that I take when people shuffle my deck, they started it. And also, GOOD. I don't want to have to play against these people anyway. It's like every match is an ID when I'm paired against a shuffler. I may as well play DivineIntervention.dec for all the good my deck choice will do me. I also don't want to constantly be accused of cheating (which is what shuffling someone's deck translates to). I can understand it in any of the Wizards-supported formats since there's actually something to be gained from cheating there, but not in a format where I'd let the majority of people hold my wallet while I went to the store.

Furthermore, as competitive as you think you are, Type 1 is a RECREATIONAL format. There are no pure Spikes in Type 1. We're all Johnnies to a degree, mainly because we can be. There's nothing recreational about having someone call you a liar/cheater/generally bad person two or three times every hour.

[Jhaggs]

I have always shuffled my opponents deck. When I ask for their deck I hand them mine in return. Rarely have I ever had a negative reaction to this request and pretty much most people are respectful of each other's deck. Shuffling each others decks negates any possible implication of unsportsmanlike conduct and its a great meechanic to ensure a level playing field.

Quote:
Personally, when somebody shuffles my deck, it makes me very hostile towards them and it feels less like a game of Magical cards and more like a game of rules-lawyering. Thusly, I look for every opportunity to call a judge over and get the person who shuffled my deck a game loss or even better, disqualified. And people make a LOT of mistakes in this format, so it's not all that difficult in theory. Unfortunately, judges are a bit more lenient in Type 1, so it's a bit more difficult in practice. Basically, when some stick shuffles my deck, I go from playing at REL 1 to REL 5. Live by the rules, die by the rules, bitch.


I'm suprised by this reaction. Shuffling my opponents deck is pretty much second nature to me. It's never been an attempt to take a jab at my opponents integrity, its just part of the process in starting a match...much like the coin flip.

[Meddling Mike]

As it was explained to me, the shuffling rule was placed after there were serious problems in Japan with shuffling an opponents deck before a match was seen as a sign of disrespect. I think that if you pile shuffle your opponent's deck that's perfectly acceptable, it certainly won't damage the cards, and since you choose the number of piles you can almost insure that any stacking will be negated. Having seen the way that you shuffle prior to matches I'd feel perfectly comfortable with you shuffling my cards as your form of shuffling doesn't put any bend on the cards. I've been told by a high level jude that breaking into piles of three is the most effective way to negate any stacking effects. Good to see you posting Dave, it's Mike Lydon btw.

[kl0wn]

It's never been an attempt to take a jab at my opponents integrity, its just part of the process in starting a match...much like the coin flip.

Well, the sole purpose of shuffling your opponent's deck is to prevent cheating. Nothing else. By doing something to prevent cheating when sitting down across from your opponent, you imply that he/she would cheat, regardless of how you intend it.

[Jhaggs]

Klown,

  In a way I guess it would be an implication of your opponent cheating.  I just felt it was a good method to elimate any doubt of the possiblity of foulplay.  Often times for employment hiring managers will run a felony background check on potential employess.  Some jobs such as law enforcement even apply a poly graph test to judge the truthfulness of a candidates application.  Does the employer in this situation think that whoever is applying for a job is lying on their background?  Or instead, is that employer just creating a level playing field because this policy applies to everyone.

   I think your objection to someone asking to shuffle your deck would have merit IF you were the only one that this was asked off.  But if I asked this of every single person that I play in a tournment and not just you, I'm not singling you out as a suspect....I'm just creating neutral conditions for every match.

   I have never been refused a request to shuffle someone's deck.  If I saw that you had shuffled adequatly and then refused my request, I probably wouldn't have a problem with it knowing that players cards are a presonal matter in this format.  I have  a pretty good level of trust in this format, only once have I caught someone blantantly cheating.  But I must admit, I have never heard anyone take such a position on the matter.

[Moridar]

I could shuffle my deck for 10 minutes without realizing that i'm stalling.  But most times I'll only shuffle if they don't shuffle enough for my liking.  

Never riffle shuffle a T1 deck.   Makes mint beta cards cry...

I've watch a local idiot player grab a friends deck at the start of a match and do a couple of riffle shuffles it.  It was only a Stax/Slavery deck (No power 9).  What do you do ith those types?

If you shuffle enough your in front opponent shouldn't have to worry about you cheating.   But the floor rules says you can shuffle.

Wayne

[Matt]

A lot of people have brought this up, so I was wondering: does riffle shuffling actually damage cards anymore than the wear and tear from just playing the cards out? I have cards that I've kept in sleeves since 1997 (my old Force of Will playset comes to mind) that don't (to me) look any worse for the wear. Now, I can definitely imagine some dick bending the crap out of my cards, just because he's a dick - but is an honest, non-malicious riffle shuffle actually significantly damaging?

[xrizzo]

A lot of people have brought this up, so I was wondering: does riffle shuffling actually damage cards anymore than the wear and tear from just playing the cards out? I have cards that I've kept in sleeves since 1997 (my old Force of Will playset comes to mind) that don't (to me) look any worse for the wear. Now, I can definitely imagine some dick bending the crap out of my cards, just because he's a dick - but is an honest, non-malicious riffle shuffle actually significantly damaging?

It will damage long term for two reasons:
1. The sleeves actually break.  It happens, but rarely.
2. If you are using sleeves which are not deep enough for your cards, you can push the card to the top of the sleeve, and the top can get nicked, accumulate dirt, and show wear.

------

As far as opponents shuffling - it is just not cool to do if you are playing in a friendly game.  There are too many instances of people's card getting jacked.  If I am plaing a fully powered player, and hand over a fully powered deck, I feel a lot better because they know how to handle such valuable cards.  Also, if they try to pull something, I have their precious bundle of goodies in my hands as well...

[Kerz]

Alright.. my thoughts:

 I don't mind when people shuffle my deck, but only when they respect my property. Respect includes: being gentle, having clean hands, and not endangering my cards in any way.

The one thing that REALLY gets me is when people have dirty hands (not noticably, but generally sweaty or scummy) and shuffle my deck. After they get done, there is noticable residue on my sleeves, and they are noticably harder to shuffle and slide around. After a few times, the plastics get sticky and I can barely draw my cards, forcing me to buy new sleeves. This angers me so much because personnally, I always keep my hands clean, to save my own sleeves, and just because dirty hands are gross. If it wasn't for someone else touching my shit, I wouldn't have had to invest more money in this game. I also use a playmat for the same reason of keeping my plastics nice and my cards out of table hazards.

Riffle Shuffling and Mashing 2 piles together hard are both examples of shuffling that is absolutely not acceptable, whether type one or anything else. It just happens our cards are worth more, but that doesn't make it right in other, less expensive, formats. I usually just do a series of cuts (2 -4) when playing, but in top eights I go to gentile pile shuffling on my playmat. I know in my mind I am not causing any distress to their property, so I belive that this is fine.

In short- people, if you are going to touch my property, respect me. Don't fuck with my cards, and please, have reasonably clean hands.

[Hi-Val]

Kerz, you need to hand out Wet Naps to your opponents

I see it as just a formality. When you play poker, you cut the deck. It's just a matter of the course of the game. It is there to prevent cheating, but I guess it is symbolic as well. You do it for your opponent, they do it for you. I guess I do it to remove that "what if" thought when my opponent drops a God Hand.

[kl0wn]

Klown,

In a way I guess it would be an implication of your opponent cheating. I just felt it was a good method to elimate any doubt of the possiblity of foulplay.

It would be if it didn't present another opportunity for foul play at the same time. As it is, the only difference between your opponent shuffling your deck/shuffling your opponent's deck and not is that in the first scenario, your opponent can stack your deck whereas in the second scenario, he can stack his own deck.

So it basically boils down to this:

Would you rather your opponent stack your deck or his own?

Furthermore, it's easier for an opponent to stack your deck while shuffling it than it is for them to stack their own deck since you're only allowed one cut after your opponent shuffles (since it's technically considered a shuffle to cut more than once), so he can just shuffle all your mana/nonmana to where it'll be in one big, fat, mulligan-worthy clump after you get your one measly cut.

[Arrg]

Ok, When I get power and whatnot I'm going to riffle. I riffle the fuck out of my cards. They are MEA[/b]NT to be played. NOT sit in cases to be stared at. If one of my opponets wants to shuffle, fine, I don't care if they riffle AS LONG AS THEY KNOW HOW TO FUCKING DO IT RIGHT! If anyone EVER pile shuffles I shuffle their deck NO MATTER WHAT. There are just too many ways to stack the deck with pile shuffling, even when you cut. If they have a problem with that (me shuffling after they pile shuffle) that is hardcore proof that they are cheating. (IMHO) and I WILL call a judge to shuffle their deck.

I can understand it in any of the Wizards-supported formats since there's actually something to be gained from cheating there

So there is nothing to be gained in winning a lotus, or a mox? Hell those are worth more then anything I could win at a local FNM and I STILL shuffle my opponents deck there. Just another $0.02 from me.


None of the above probably made sense, but I'm tired, and, I'll fix it and add more later.

EDIT: God Damn I am tired. I had a glaring grammar mistake. Fixed.
EDIT 2: Holy shit I can't spell worth a god damn penny. If there are any more mistakes I will fix them when I am not so tired.

Edited by the spelling/grammar police

-Kerz

[Dante]

He hands me his slavery and I instinctively start to shuffle... he points out 2 things: 1) Don't shuffle during a testing game.

Nobody has really commented on point 1, but the worst thing you can do during a test game is NOT shuffle.  When you intutition for AK, cast AK, gee, no surprise all your AKs are stuck together.  

When testing, you should always shuffle well or your results will be tainted.  You don't need to go overboard, but if you're going to spend a couple hours playtesting a couple dozen games, take the extra 30 seconds each game and shuffle "enough" for testing.

Bill

[kirdape3]

Shuffling your opponent's deck is required at high-level events.  I always do it for this reason.  HOWEVER.

If someone's damaging your cards (and in Type One this is a real issue with an individual card worth upwards of $500), then you should call the judge, who can be held liable if they damage the cards.  If you don't like me shuffling it, then well don't play against me.  I'll take the match win.