Shuffling In T1...

[Smash]

I will ALWAYS shuffle my opponents deck at the start. I am gentle, and if they bitch "guess what, 99% likely my deck is worth more, so they can deal with it"  If they don't want to shuffle, dont play with the cards. Wusses.

[gzeiger]

Actually, JP, while the discussion did get a bit heated, there was basically only one guy (Brian Shenck) on the wrong side of it. So long as you pile-shuffle without any knowledge of the order of the opponent's library (theory being that you need to call a judge if you have indication of a stacked deck) then using this method habitually is a valid precaution.

[Rane]

Like I have stated before, if the opponent shuffles sufficiently then all you need to do is make a cut or two to make sure they didn't sneek ancestral to the top.

The problem arrives when you see an opponent begin to pile shuffle, which as has been stated can easily stack a deck even if unintentionally.  In this case I normally riffle shuffle my opponents cards, gently and you CAN riffle shuffle without damaging cards, it's just not a good idea as you have to be really good and nobodies perfect so mistakes can occur.  

Generally I think that a 'shuffling' agreement should be added to the rules of mtg to explain how to shuffle apart from just "sufficiently randomize."  I you can work out a system that is not to time consuming and does not allow for any for any stacking then this would be great.  I can't think if a certain method however that can entirely prevent stacking, but I'm sure that a few exist.

[Ephraim]

I got bored after two screens of this thread, so this sentiment has probably already been expressed.

For myself, I don't shuffle anybody's deck, be it casual play, Friday Night Magic, or a PEZ tournament. I cut decks. However, cutting the deck is part of my pre-game ritual. It's like bowing to one's opponent in a karate match. I'd no sooner not cut the deck than not shake my opponent's hand or introduce myself before the match. If somebody has a similar pre-game ritual that includes shuffling, power to them.

[Razvan]

klown:

Live by the rules, die by the rules, bitch.

I love that. I honestly love that .

[kl0wn]

Arright, since everybody's chiming in with their probabilities and potential cheating/prevention techniques, let me lay it out for you.

This is how I shuffle before EVERY game, in plain view of my opponent:

1) One six-pile shuffle, checking for marked sleeves and missing/extra cards.

2) Between four and twelve side shuffles, with the cards facing at an angle to the table so nobody can see what's in my deck.

3) Tell my opponent to cut me.

Is it in any way possible for me to cheat or otherwise stack my deck that way? I would think that it should be fairly obvious that I'm not cheating by that point.

[Dante]

Arright, since everybody's chiming in with their probabilities and potential cheating/prevention techniques, let me lay it out for you.

This is how I shuffle before EVERY game, in plain view of my opponent:

1) One six-pile shuffle, checking for marked sleeves and missing/extra cards.

2) Between four and twelve side shuffles, with the cards facing at an angle to the table so nobody can see what's in my deck.

3) Tell my opponent to cut me.

Is it in any way possible for me to cheat or otherwise stack my deck that way? I would think that it should be fairly obvious that I'm not cheating by that point.

So if your opponent picks it up your deck and gently side shuffles once or twice (with as much care or more as you used for your own side shuffles), then cuts it (whole process takes 30 seconds or less), this would be a big issue for you?

What if they asked you beforehand "can give it a quick shuffle?"  If you said "No", if I were the opponent, I would be very suspicious after that...

Bill

[Public Service]

1) One six-pile shuffle, checking for marked sleeves and missing/extra cards.

Just a quick note: It's generally better to pile shuffle into a number of piles which is not a factor of the number of cards in your deck. So for a 40 card limited deck you should not do an 8, 5 or 4 pile shuffle, and for a 60 card constructed deck you should not do a 6, 5 or 3 pile shuffle. I generally do multiple 7 pile shuffles with rifle/press shuffling in between.

Don't mean to cast doubts on anyone's character, and I'm sure with all the side shuffling your deck is perfectly randomised, but I just thought this might be a helpful tip.

Handy Link

[Androstanolone]

7 pages on shuffling...  

I'm speechless

[Matt]

What is a side shuffle?

[Razvan]

7 pages on shuffling...

I'm speechless

Obviously not speechless. You just said that.

I think that it's a matter of respect. If you don't think your opponent has shuffled well enough, ask hit to do it again, or offer to do it for him. If you do, be careful and gentle with their cards. Same for cutting. Same for turning a card around to read it (for whatever reason).

Respect. Like that fat woman sings it (forgot her name).

[Androstanolone]

7 pages on shuffling...

I'm speechless

Obviously not speechless. You just said that.

heh, well compared to what I could have said, believe me it's nothing.  

PS:  if you have to spend 7 pages discussing shuffling you suck at life

[DEA]

and if you have to bolster your ego by putting people down because they're discussing something they find interesting, guess who's the one that sucks at life?

[Jacob Orlove]

Okay, this just became terrible. Closed.