[Discussion] Should the number of proxies be increased?

[Meddling Mike]

An issue that I noticed during the confusion regarding andystok's NE championship dual lotus tourney about the number of proxies allowed going from 5 to 10 is that most people were happy about the increase in the number of proxies.

There are certainly alot of points to be made about how restricting a format type I can be, and how it can be very unfriendly to new players. Without access to power cards many new players are restricted to such budget decks as fish/sligh/Sui Black. Before meeting samite healer here at BC I was not even aware that there were proxies allowed in type I tournaments. I can honestly say that I probably never would have begun playing type I on a regular basis if Samite Healer had not been kind enough to loan me a few of his extra power cards so I could play in local tourneys or TAL had not helped me build a type I deck when I first began playing magic.

This weekend I was unable to play in the tournament in Cape Cod because Samite Healer was unable to furnish me with the cards necessary to make my deck five proxy legal due to some business matters. This makes me think how many more players aren't attending tournaments because they simply cannot get the cards and also, how many more players could be drawn into playing type I if playing didn't require a generous and power-rich friend or an extremely large initial investment in order to build certain decks in the format. If it encouraged more people to play type I it could mean a general boon for the format, and it would certainly be more inviting to people who had always considered type I something they could never be a part of. Store owners could certainly profit from the increased numbers entering their type I tourneys and perhaps more people will be inclined to buy power after they've become comfortable with the format, but at the same time would their sales of power 9 in the display cases drop as they are no longer a necessity?

There is of course other drawbacks to this plan, it's very hard to regulate people using proxies in tournaments as it stands, and this could also potentially decrease (however slightly) the value of power cards as they would no longer be necessary in order to build a tournament legal deck. I've also found that a number of type I players cherish the fact that there are fewer "scrubs" playing type I than in other formats. Power is kind of like a "membership card" to an elite club in their minds, and they prefer it that way. Of course this is not reflective of all type I players, some would much prefer to have even scrubs playing Type I so that they could at the very least have a good pool of opponents to playtest against.

So, the question remains, what's the healthiest number of proxies to be allowed? It should be able to draw in a good amount of new players, while at the same time making building decks other than budget not terribly far out of reach for them. At the same time the dealers and store owners financial needs have to be taken into account as well as the desire by some type I players to keep the format from being overrun by scrubs.

[jpmeyer]

Unlimited

[Arrg]

I voted for unlimited.

[Zherbus]

Either 10 - or pre-legends only. People proxying fetchlands and Sol Rings is just sickening.

[kl0wn]

If we ever go up to unlimited proxies, I'm going to sell off all my cards and just write stuff down on a deck of playing cards. That way, I'll only have to make an investment of like $0.50 every time I want to play a different deck.

Actually, why not just ban Magic cards from Magic tournaments in general? It would totally level the playing field and nobody would be handicapped by their lack of commitment to the game.

[Klep]

I voted 10, seeing as how Zherbus's idea of a set-based restriction isn't an option.

[banky]

Ten, most definatly is perfect. Allows players like me with very limited incomes to manage the basics of a deck together while proxying the more hard-to-get and expensive aspects of a deck.

[theorigamist]

I think Unlimited Proxies is fine as long as that's in conjunction with a higher number of sanctioned Type 1 tournaments.  Otherwise kl0wn is absolutely right: the only reason left to buy real cards would be to make your deck look prettier.

By the way, kl0wn, I don't agree about your statement about commitment, because the greater the commitment, the greater the sacrifice to other aspects of your life.  Some people cannot make those sacrifices, so they are unable to become more committed.

[MarkPharaoh]

None, this is T1, if you can't make the investment then go pick another hobby/game, i'm 17 and I worked to get all my Power. If a 17 year old runt with no job can do it then almost anyone can.  And no, my parents did not help pay for my cards..

[mtg_player_2004]

None, this is T1, if you can't make the investment then go pick another hobby/game, i'm 17 and I worked to get all my Power. If a 17 year old runt with no job can do it then almost anyone can. And no, my parents did not help pay for my cards..

Yes, a jobless 17 year old unfunded by his parents aquired $5,000 for cardboard cards, because you don't need to eat lunch, wear clothes, or go to movies.  I have a job, I'm 16, and I get in about 16-20 hours a week, but there's no way I could possibly buy magic cards, they're too expensive for anyone who isn't rich or has a life, which is why I only play on-line.

[Elric]

Mark- did you pay for your car?  I ask because although I didn't pay for my car, the cost of a deck like Meandeck Slaver is about equal to the value of my car.  That is why there are budget decks.

Plus, just think about how high prices for power would be if everyone who liked type 1 was willing to pay for power at the current prices.  Pretty soon white-bordered Meandeck Slaver would be worth $6,000.  Would all of the same arguments about investing in the format apply then?

Commitment is relative.  If no one had any power cards and someone had a huge line, and whoever waited in line the longest would get the power cards, would this ensure that power went to people who are most committed to the format?  Not really—it would ensure that power goes to people who mind standing in line least and want power the most.

[Hspecter]

None, this is T1, if you can't make the investment then go pick another hobby/game, i'm 17 and I worked to get all my Power. If a 17 year old runt with no job can do it then almost anyone can.  And no, my parents did not help pay for my cards..

Amen brother! I'm 18 and got all my power,drains,etc. the old fashion way, Trading. I have no job and my parents didn't give me a dime.

[Ifflejink]

I vote for ten, but I do because too many unlimited proxy events would, as has already been stated, destroy the need to own any cards whatsoever. For the majority of tournaments, ten proxies just works. It allows for whatever power your deck may need, plus a few $50+ cards. Honestly, you should have the dedication to actually obtain most of your deck's cards, but you shouldn't have to pay $600 for a Lotus that may not even draw.

[kirdape3]

Proxies should be allowed at feeder-style tournaments (or smaller tournaments for power) - it's a fairly easy and reliable way for people to get those cards.  However.  At large tournaments (even like those at Waterbury) they should be sanctioned, simply because that normally ensures better organization.

[ctthespian]

Wow sometimes I hate my country.  It's amazing that people think anything that they could want should be theirs.  I wanted the cards and worked to get them.  The only reason I have any support for the 5 proxy system is it does bring greater numbers of players to the game, allowing players to have a cushion to stay competitive and still invest in the game.  Now I fear all my work into my collection may have been in vain.  Yes magic is a collectible game, even if it is technically called a trading card game now, you still collect cards and those cards have value.

You know I wish I had a million dollars.  I think I deserve to have it.  I think I'll print out a dozen $100 bills on my PC and try to go gamble at the casino here.  Think we should vote to see if that'll fly?  In fact screw it just print the million!

Unlimited proxies is ludicrous I’m surprised that some people even consider it.  The idea bad for the long term life of Magic seeing as WOTC needs revenue to continue pumping out sets.  Not only that but I’m sure Wizards would then try and put a stop to events that allowed this.  And yes, I’m sure somehow there are legal ramifications to holding events allowing proxy cards.  Ten and more proxies is still a point where I think within short time frames the value of cards being proxied would plummet.  Five proxies is enough for someone to construct a deck especially if they have friends or team members that can lend power or other cards as well.

I don’t see people declining to come to tournaments in New England because they only allow 5 proxies.  Most regular tournaments that are worth anything hold steady or only increase in attendance.  If it ain’t broke don’t mess with it.

-Keith

[MarkPharaoh]

None, this is T1, if you can't make the investment then go pick another hobby/game, i'm 17 and I worked to get all my Power. If a 17 year old runt with no job can do it then almost anyone can. And no, my parents did not help pay for my cards..

Yes, a jobless 17 year old unfunded by his parents aquired $5,000 for cardboard cards, because you don't need to eat lunch, wear clothes, or go to movies.  I have a job, I'm 16, and I get in about 16-20 hours a week, but there's no way I could possibly buy magic cards, they're too expensive for anyone who isn't rich or has a life, which is why I only play on-line.

rofl, you must work at McDonalds or something...during the course of my Magic career, my parents got me a Recall (which I had for about 2 months) for my Birthday two years back and has spent MAYBE $50 for me on cards, thats it.  There is a thing called trading (get low, trade high).  That and also I am a soccer ref which is some under the counter money.  It's called smart trading and budgetting your money approiately, I suggest you try it.

Just ask drg how much he has made in trades.  He has gone to tourneys with nothing but some T2 cards and walk away with a Mox or two, all from trading.

@ Elric- Actually, my parents just bought me a car like 3 weeks ago .  And in case you were wondering, my collection is worth more then the car .

[Nefarias]

I play every week in a small store that allows an unlimited number of proxies, and it is really fun. All the decks are competitive, and you don't have to waste SB slots on random aggro junk. There are usually only about a dozen people, but it's still a good time.

However, it is extremely rare that anybody proxies any more that 10 cards, 15 MAX. I almost never see a proxy for anything except power, Bazaar, Workshop, or Drain, unless someone is just to lazy to find a card or remembers SB tech last minute. In fact, at least four regulars are fully powered and rarely proxy anything.

Unlimited is really fun, and makes the game a game of skill and excitement, which I personally find far more enjoyable than the collecting/buying aspect of the game. However, there is really no reason for it at major tournaments. I voted for ten, but I can understand 15. The best is probably twelve, which allows for Power 8 plus four Drains/Bazaars/Workshops. Thus far, no deck has been made that utilizes more than two of those expensive four-ofs, so there shouldn't be a real problem.

I think the true spirit of Type 1 shouldn't be elitism, but rather getting other, less fortunate members of the Magic community to share in the glory that is Type 1. This creates not only a larger community, but also a healthier one, because decks like Sligh/Sui/10landStompy should really have no reason to exist.

[MarkPharaoh]

This creates not only a larger community, but also a healthier one, because decks like Sligh/Sui/10landStompy should really have no reason to exist.

Even with unlimited proxies, people would still play these decks.  These type of decks you will see until the end of T1, i'll put my money on that.

However, it is extremely rare that anybody proxies any more that 10 cards, 15 MAX. I almost never see a proxy for anything except power, Bazaar, Workshop, or Drain, unless someone is just to lazy to find a card or remembers SB tech last minute. In fact, at least four regulars are fully powered and rarely proxy anything.

But that is in a small store where everyone knows each other and get friendly with each other.  In a big tournament like Waterbury, there will be people that proxy entire decks and I know if all tourneys would become unlimited some people would use all proxy decks out of spite.  I like the idea of unlimited proxies...in a SMALL tournament but something of medium size or bigger just shouldn't be unlimited proxies in my opinion.  This would draw people like PTQ players who would bring an all proxy deck in the hopes to win a piece of power and sell it to the highest bidder.

[Meddling Mike]

Ok, I'm glad to see that people are posting on this thing. I think that alot of the points I made in the initial post have really been proven here. Many people view power as a necessity to play, they feel they've worked hard for their power and random people who haven't paid their dues should be excluded. I really have to respectfully disagree with the folks who think that magic should be a no proxy affair, I worked pretty hard throughout high school and college and I simply have never been able to afford to buy and keep power for an extended period of time. The point I was making is that this huge investment is really far too daunting for alot of magic players and keeps a number of good magic players from being able to play type I.

At the same time I disagree that unlimited proxies should be allowed, Klown's statement that it would just COMPLETELY devalue power cards is very true, and people legitimately worked in order to afford their power. I also think it's unrealistic because what store owner is going to kill his sale of cards in order to boost his tourney attendance a little bit? This even holds true for Non-store related shows like waterbury in which people pay good money to get dealer tables. Being totally unpowered with the exception of a library, unlimited proxies would certainly work to my advantage, but it's unrealistic and if it did ever become the standard the consequences for a lot of people I consider friends would be dire as the price of their power cards that they had worked so hard to get would plummet.

I'm personally inclined towards 10 proxies as Zherbus suggested, it's enough that I can concievably see a store owner's profit increasing as a result of more players, without killing his sales or devaluing his cards.

I was also a little offended to see that somebody felt that all the budget decks were entirely not worthwhile, I have seen fish decks piloted to t8 finishes a huge number of times, and certain budget decks can really take advantage of certain metagames, they're certainly not without merit in my opinion. The mention I made of them in the initial post was that new, unpowered players were entirely restricted to these decks by virtue of them having no power cards, and this lack of options is a problem in my opinion

[Nefarias]

This would draw people like PTQ players who would bring an all proxy deck in the hopes to win a piece of power and sell it to the highest bidder

I never thought of that. A complete and utter lack of exclusivity would also bring in the bad types, as well, although, to be fair, they would have to study the metagame and thoroughly playtest to stand a shot at winning. Also, to a lot of fully powered players, they are basically playing for the $200-$250 that they can sell the first prized Mox for, and not the Mox itself.

I was also a little offended to see that somebody felt that all the budget decks were entirely not worthwhile

If this was directed at me, this is not at all what I meant. I in no way said that ALL budget decks are not worthwhile, and the Fish you specifically mention was left off the list. In fact, Orlove's Worse than Fish can easily played by a budget player in a 5-proxy environment, and he played it despite being fully powered. The three decks I mentioned are, IMHO, truly bad and should not be played unless there are no other options.

new, unpowered players were entirely restricted to these decks by virtue of them having no power cards, and this lack of options is a problem in my opinion

Exactly my point about the budget decks listed. I won't say nobody, but very, very few serious Vintagers would play this if they didn't have to. It is the lack of options that forces these decks to exist in the numbers they do.

EDIT: I didn't mean to be overly harsh about the crappy budget aggro. I didn't really consider the virgin T1 player, who enjoys the simplicity of decks like Sui and Sligh, rather than the mind-hurting brokenness of decks like Long. I guess decks like these serve a purpose as intros into the wonderful world of Type 1.

[jazzykat]

I voted for 10 because I think it will make a good compromise.

WRT: a PTQ player with an all proxy deck coming and winning the tournament. I can only laugh at someone who is afraid of competition.

WRT: Five proxies are OK. I was hoping that the upcoming Hadley tourney would stay at 10 proxies as now I am considering not attending (this is a small loss for the TO because they could have been $60 richer, because I do not think my friends are going if I am not driving.)

The last time I went I enjoyed the highly competive atmosphere, where bad decks were no where to be found and no one had an excuse for not being able to make just about any deck they wanted to except being destitute or wanting to play dargon.

[Dxfiler]

Regardless of where you stand on the issue of proxies, there is not one person on this entire forum who doesn't want to see type 1 grow.  Fact: Proxies help the game grow by bringing in new players who then start to play in tourneys and buy cards.  I am a perfect example of this.  

Two months ago I laughed at type 1.  Didn't give a flying you-know-what about it.  To me, it was the expensive casual player's format.  Then I learned about 5 proxy tourneys.  I thought to myself, wow, maybe I could play a budget deck in one of these and have some game.  So I started building alot of decks that were comprised of much sharpie ink.  When I tried to translate these decks into actual cards, I just fell up short even with five proxies.  I became frustrated yet still really wanted to play.  I'm just lucky enough to have some friends that allow me to borrow just enough power so that I can compete in 5 proxy tourneys...

Now imagine if it was 10 proxies.  Do you know how much earlier I would have been regularly pumping $15 into tourneys?  I'm not the only one.  I know at least 10 players in my area who would jump right into the t1 tourney scene if it became 10 proxies.  Sure, some old-school power-mongering players will get upset, but fact of the matter is that MORE PLAYERS WOULD REGULARLY ATTEND TOURNEYS.  How is that bad?  Yes, 10 proxies let's players have access to cards they didn't 'earn', but lets face it: that isn't going to seriously disrupt the people who have been firmly entrenched in the t1 metagame.  That influx of new blood is just going to help you out in tourneys, so please don't start with the 'I don't want to lose to people who don't own power' B.S.  If they haven't done their homework on the metagame and actually tested, the odds of them doing well are slim to none.  If they have done their homework, they have every much a right to making a top 8 as the guy who sleeps with the power 9 under his pillow.

Bottom line: 10 proxies is the happy medium for t1 tourneys.  More players will come, and the good ones will still be separated from the chaff.  The value of cards won't plummet. If anything, now that people have more freedom of choice due to 10 proxies, they will start buying cards to help supplement their decks.  The resulting growth of the format that would come from 10 proxies is a good thing.

- Dxfiler

[jpmeyer]

Wow sometimes I hate my country.  It's amazing that people think anything that they could want should be theirs.  I wanted the cards and worked to get them.  The only reason I have any support for the 5 proxy system is it does bring greater numbers of players to the game, allowing players to have a cushion to stay competitive and still invest in the game.  Now I fear all my work into my collection may have been in vain.  Yes magic is a collectible game, even if it is technically called a trading card game now, you still collect cards and those cards have value.

You know I wish I had a million dollars.  I think I deserve to have it.  I think I'll print out a dozen $100 bills on my PC and try to go gamble at the casino here.  Think we should vote to see if that'll fly?  In fact screw it just print the million!

Unlimited proxies is ludicrous I?m surprised that some people even consider it.  The idea bad for the long term life of Magic seeing as WOTC needs revenue to continue pumping out sets.  Not only that but I?m sure Wizards would then try and put a stop to events that allowed this.  And yes, I?m sure somehow there are legal ramifications to holding events allowing proxy cards.  Ten and more proxies is still a point where I think within short time frames the value of cards being proxied would plummet.  Five proxies is enough for someone to construct a deck especially if they have friends or team members that can lend power or other cards as well.

I don?t see people declining to come to tournaments in New England because they only allow 5 proxies.  Most regular tournaments that are worth anything hold steady or only increase in attendance.  If it ain?t broke don?t mess with it.

-Keith

If you look at WotC's stats, people will play even more when they can build the decks more easily.  The number of constructed tournaments doubled when Invasion came out (a block which was famous for how it seemed like just about every rare could be played in Constructed.)

The reason that I like something like unlimited proxies or pre-Legends only is because WotC has tried very hard to bring down the barrier to entry in Standard so it only contrasts even more strongly.  If I want to play Ravager Affinity at Regionals for instance, that deck has only about 7 rares in it, and that's the best deck in the format.

[RoadTrippin]

8 is the optimal number of proxies in my mind, for a few untouched (in this thread, so far) reasons. If you want to play one of the top-end, uber- expensive decks, which uses 11-13 really expensive cards (7-10 of the power including LoA, as well as a playset of big uncommons), you still need to make a serious commitment. No matter how much money you have or how thoroughly you enjoy the game, you have to rationalize to yourself spending hundreds on just a few, or even one, card(s).

A new player, starting Type One from scratch, can play a good deck like fish, fully powered, with relative ease under eight proxies. This is perfect- because they'll see how easily they can build such a viable deck, and happily shell out the cash for the rest of the cards. Eventually they'll probably move on to a higher end deck. As an example, let's say the fish player who started Type One from scratch wants to move on to Keeper. By now, it's possible that they purchased a Mox or maybe Ancestral because they really liked Fish. When they want to move up to Keeper, they're going to happily spring for the other Blue based duals, but there will still be 10-12 expensive cards they need, depending on if they sought out any power of their own while playing fish. Now the same player needs to fill a gap of 4 cards to be able to play a top end deck like Keeper, and they are faced with 2 choices:
1. Play a decklist strictly sub-optimal compared to a fully-powered list, or
2. Fork over cash for a playset of Drains (again, this is just an example and it really fit most new players' transgression into competitive Vintage- whether they start off with Fish or Goblin Sligh or Suicide Black, it doesn't entirely matter)

It's likely that they'll buy the expensive staples they're missing. Even if they don't buy them right away and opt to play a sub-optimal list, they'll gradually pick up the expensive cards they're missing.

[MarkPharaoh]

WRT: a PTQ player with an all proxy deck coming and winning the tournament. I can only laugh at someone who is afraid of competition.

lol, please don't tell me you think I am afraid of these type of people...I am one of the most competitive person you'll ever meet and I definately wouldn't be afraid of more competition.  The bad thing about PTQ players is their attitude.  Ask anyone here who has been to PTQ's before and you'll know what I mean...

Also, to a lot of fully powered players, they are basically playing for the $200-$250 that they can sell the first prized Mox for, and not the Mox itself.

This is true; however, most of these type of people play T1 for enjoyment and not just for winning, thus they have a very positive attitude and are an enjoyment to play against whereas it would suck having to play multiple PTQ players as all they do is talk trash and try to find any way to win.

[jpmeyer]

In a way, doesn't that make it so Type 1 really is kind of maxed out in a way in terms of player participation?  I'd be curious to know if the increasing tournament size has less to do with new blood entering the format and more to do with people being more willing to make the drive since there are ridiculous prizes.  I know personally, I can just stay right where I am if I want to play a relaxed game of Magic with friends and not need to pay $20 for a tourney plus $20 for gas.

[Gothmog]

In my area, we have weekly tournaments and once per month a power tournament.  These are all 0 proxy and have steadily increased in attendance the last year or two.  Once a month, the store owner holds a unlimited proxy tournament, which is inevitably the most poorly attended event of the month.

Personally, I voted for 0 proxy in the poll, but I can see the argument for 5.  I think any more than 5 proxys is too many.  5 proxys gives plenty of leeway for making competivite decks, while also giving people incentive to collect the cards.  Why have tournaments for power when it can all be proxied all the time?  A limited number of proxys makes players commit to the format more, making winning power that much more interesting for those people and making the community generally better.

I am always amazed at the volume of power I see in our area.  People have had to commit to actually getting cards because we play sanctioned 0 proxy events.

[kl0wn]

By the way, kl0wn, I don't agree about your statement about commitment, because the greater the commitment, the greater the sacrifice to other aspects of your life.  Some people cannot make those sacrifices, so they are unable to become more committed.

By lack of commitment, I meant the people who proxy up a deck, win a power tournament, and then procede to sell the card/cards that they won because they can just proxy them; to these people, it's like they essentially just won a wad of cash.

I'm in favor of proxies helping those who want to make the commitment to the game, but can't make the sacrifices in other aspects of their lives. If they win, they are rewarded for their efforts by having to proxy one less card and they get all psyched about it. These are the people we want in our format. But when an unpowered player wins a mox, then goes and sells it off because they feel that they can just keep proxying cards and padding their wallet with the cash they can get for it, that just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

In short, I'm all for proxies helping people win power cards. I'm against proxies helping people win cash. Less proxies keeps some of the bad apples out and provides the incentive to actually get real cards.

[Meddling Mike]

@Klown
The problem I see is what you're saying here is this, because of the only five proxy rule, players are still required to make a huge investment just so they don't have to play a budget deck, which is often the suboptimal deck to be playing. As a result of this, most of the people winning tourneys are already fully powered and they end up selling their prizes, as I'm sure somebody who keeps a close eye on transactions like Samite Healer or andystok could tell you. That's not to say that budget decks are incapable of winning tournaments, but often times they win because a fully powered player has chosen it for a specific meta (like Jacob Orlove for example) and manages to find success like that. As an unpowered person, I could certainly more easily build a more competitive deck with ten proxies, and I assure you that if I won power I would certainly not sell it.

[jpmeyer]

I love the people that are worried about "PTQ players" coming in and winning a tournament in "a format that they haven't put the time into."  There are just so many fun things wrong with that statement.