The Hulksmash.dec Overrated?

[DragonFire]

Hello,

I've read a lot of Forum threads and Webposts about the Hulksmash.deck. Everybody loves playing the Tog and talks about it as it were the best deck at the moment. I don't feel so, perhaps I've played against a lot of Togs during my last three tournaments. My deck is a strange MUD build with 6 Sphere's MD, okay this is definitly a lot, but I lost just one match against the Tog. I've won a match an opposing Pernicious Deed on the Table also, that sound strange.

I think that the Sphere's (Trini and Resistance) totally ruins the Togs Manabase, I am not interested how much cards he has in his hand, when he can play just a few of them. My deck isn't perfect thats for sure, but why the hell does everybody hypes the Tog.dec?

It is definitly a very good deck, but It has it weaknesses. What do you think?

[Bamse]

I don´t think the Tog deck is overrated at all. I´ve managed quite good results with it so far. (split a Mox Pearl in the finals once).

I believe, that your experiences with Tog is a result of the fact, that you play one of the absolute most horrible decks a Tog player can face. A Mud deck with multiple Spheres (Trini & Resistance) plus Chalices is just devastating for the Tog player. Tog´s fighting chance increases after sideboard but is still not very good. The possibility of the Mud player taking home either game two or three is just too great. And the Mud player usually wins game one.  

/Rasmus

[Toad]

A good Tog player will always wreck MUD, Welder MUD or $T4KS. All the Tog player has to do is to drop a Tog, and "that's game boys". Even the Red-less builds (hence without Artifact Mutation, Rack and Ruin, Gorilla Shaman and Fire/Ice) beat traditional Prison decks. If you just keep beating your opponents with MUD when they play Tog, then they are simply bad Tog players that try to take the Control route when their deck wants to go Aggro.

Misassignment of role = Game Loss.

[DragonFire]

@Toad:

Hmm, The first move he did in the first game was:

Fetch, Tropico, Mox Jet, Mox Ruby -> Tog. I let it through for about 6 rounds going down to 14, blocked him then wir workers or welders. I'll try to understand the game, what can he do when he has no chance to play cunning wish (because of heavy mana denial) for berserk? The Tog is quit useless.

I just try to understand the way tog goes, but I don't think that he has a good chance going the aggro way. I've played no Chalice main in my MUD Build.

BTW this was round 6 and he was unbeatened in Eindhoven, not a very random metagame for sure. And he played a Red build with ArtiMutati.

Back to the discussion, which other Matchup (excluding Slavery) is horrible for a tog player? I just ask because perhaps one day I want to play it, so trying to understand the Deck.

[Bamse]

True, the game plan is to drop a Tog as quickly as possible. And that is just what I find is quite difficult to do against the Mud players, that I usually face.
Between Trinispheres, Spheres of Resistance, Chalice of the Voids, Smokestacks, Tangle Wires, Wastelands, and Strip Mine I find it very difficult to maintain the mana to play the Tog. It requires a really quick start (preferable going first).

Notice that the deck in question is the Mud deck with multiple spheres af the various kind (I assume it includes chalices too in the lack of a decklist). I find this much harder to beat than say, $T4KS.

[Spizzard]

I wouldn't say there's no way for him to get off a wish...
If he played a tog first turn, he also has the mana to wish.  Trinisphere wont help against the wish so your hope is to play Sphere.  If he's able to drop anothere land, he can pay the one.  That is assuming you can safely cast the sphere.

[jpmeyer]

@Toad:

Hmm, The first move he did in the first game was:

Fetch, Tropico, Mox Jet, Mox Ruby -> Tog. I let it through for about 6 rounds going down to 14, blocked him then wir workers or welders. I'll try to understand the game, what can he do when he has no chance to play cunning wish (because of heavy mana denial) for berserk? The Tog is quit useless.

That seems kind of strange.  Turn 1 Tog means they have 4 cards in hand.  If they just attack every turn and pitch excess cards to Tog, they should have you dead by about turn 5.

[DragonFire]

@Spizzard

No way means, aggressivly attack on his Manabase and Permanent removal. The only thing I really fear is a pernicious deed, which also resolves, but when you held back enough new threads u can easily return to the game after the boardsweeper.

@JPMeyer

Yes that's true, but what about the "chumpblockers".. Goblin Welder, Metalworker and say Voltaic Key (animated).

The strange thing is, that I really would expect that games would go the way u describe it, but this is so theoretical. I don't know how much experience my opponent has with his (and mine deck), but its strange to see that a deck like tog often just not works. I think that I should test it a lot more (tog), but the hype is still strange for me.

[Bamse]

The Mud player can rarely prevent the Tog player from playing anything at all. But the Mud player CAN prevent the Tog player from playing more than one spell a turn (maximum) and thus reduce the Tog´s deadliness, should it ever hit the board.  

Trinisphere in itself doesn´t prevent Tog from hitting the board but it does prevent it from being its usual, deadly self.

First-turn Tog does not happen that often after all. And this is assuming that the Tog player goes first. If he doesn´t, he is not going to play a first turn Tog barring a hand with Force of Will

[Toad]

I don't know how much experience my opponent has with his (and mine deck), but its strange to see that a deck like tog often just not works. I think that I should test it a lot more (tog), but the hype is still strange for me.

That's because people playing Tog often focus on controlling the game, when all Tog wants to do is win the game. If the Tog player tries to Control the game against Prison, thanks to Pernicious Deed or Cunning Wish for removal, then he'll lose most of his games in this matchup. If he does everything he can to drop to as soon as possible, then he'll win.

I'd say the Tog vs Welder MUD or $T4KS matchup goes 60-40 in Tog's favour. I'll let Jaypee confirm that.

[jpmeyer]

The way the matchup plays out, neither deck can match the other if one goes broken, but if both decks are just "doing their thing" than Tog usually wins.

Don't kill stuff, kill your opponent.

[Bamse]

Are we talking against Monobrown Mud or against Workshop Prison in general?

[Spizzard]

@Spizzard

No way means, aggressivly attack on his Manabase and Permanent removal. The only thing I really fear is a pernicious deed, which also resolves, but when you held back enough new threads u can easily return to the game after the boardsweeper.

Thats weird, I was talking 2nd turn Wishing which isn't that bad of an idea when your going for the win asap.  

I'd like to know how your able to drop sphere, a chump blocker and still attack the mana base enough to have an effect on the secound turn.  (And please don't give an example of some uber-broken hand.)

Are we talking against Monobrown Mud or against Workshop Prison in general?

I think its his 6sphere deck that we initially started with.  But the discussion is mostly on workshop prison in general.

[jpmeyer]

Workshop Prison in general.

It's weird.  Tog is a pretty easy deck to play on a tactical level, but it is misplayed on a strategic level more than any deck that I can think of in Type 1.

[Razvan]

Yes that's true, but what about the "chumpblockers".. Goblin Welder, Metalworker and say Voltaic Key (animated).

Why not block with a 0/8 wall that's known as Karn?

Honestly, Trinisphere is absolutely sick against Tog if the Tog player can't kill it. Even with a Tog on the Table, allowing the Workshop player 5 turns and only casting 1 spell a turn? That is suicide.

Anyhow, obviously Tog is never a pushover...

A good Tog player will always wreck MUD, Welder MUD or $T4KS.

Definately not Stax. I never really played non-welder MUD, so maybe, but I don't think it's that simple. Running a gauntlet of Tangle Wires and Smokestacks...? And the disruption? Such a generalized statement cannot be made, Toad.[/code]

[Bamse]

If we are talking Workshop Prison in general, then I´m more in line with JP and Toad, though I don´t agree with the stats. No point in arguing about that, though

[DragonFire]

Why not block with a 0/8 wall that's known as Karn?

That is what i meant with the animated key. He had the +7/+7 pushes in hand and graveyard, so i thought the key would be a perfect Combat Opponent for the Tog.

Are we talking against Monobrown Mud or against Workshop Prison in general?

We're talking about 1-2 color MUD/Prison decks with Welder.

I totally agree, that a Tog player nearly never could win the Permanent Control Battle, he has nearly none and a Smokestack @2 and a sphere is game over. But the Aggro way is as hard to, with all the Chumpblockers in the way. The Tog player cannot totaly ignore the board position, as he can do against other machups.

I think we should playtest it more.

[Spizzard]

Can you elaborate on exactly what chump blockers you are talking about?
A decklist would be helpful of what you are running.

I can think of 4x Welder, 1-2 Shaman as a possibility, 1 Karn?  Thats not exactly a lot of chump blockers... especially using a card you dont really want to chump with (welder)

[LizardKING]

Back to the discussion, which other Matchup (excluding Slavery) is horrible for a tog player? I just ask because perhaps one day I want to play it, so trying to understand the Deck.

Pre-sideboard, Dragon builds often wreck Tog decks. After sideboarding, well it really depends if the Dragon player fears the Intuition on 3 Coffin Purge Plan or not. I do, so I use 3 Misdirections and that is generally enough to have a good win ratio.

[Toad]

A good Tog player will always wreck MUD, Welder MUD or $T4KS.

Definately not Stax. I never really played non-welder MUD, so maybe, but I don't think it's that simple. Running a gauntlet of Tangle Wires and Smokestacks...? And the disruption? Such a generalized statement cannot be made, Toad.

I've done hundreds of test games with my last $T4KS build (featuring 4 Stax, 4 Wire, 4 Trini, 3 Sphere, 2 Chalice and the insane draw engine) against experimented Tog players. Basically :

* If Tog goes broken, Tog wins.
* If $T4KS goes broken, $T4KS wins.
* If no deck has a broken start, Tog has the edge.

The problem people usually have, as JP pointed, is that they don't know how to play Tog. They want to play the Control role here and then they lose. This is normal, because with all his disruption, $T4KS has a better mid/late game plan (not taking Pernicious Deed into account). If the Tog player focuses on drawing, dropping a Tog and swinging, then he has the advantage. The good thing, for the $T4KS player, is that the Tog player will often Cunning Wish for removal instead of dropping a Tog, and lose because they needed one more turn to kill before a Stax cleans the board. I consider myself as an experimented $T4KS player (I've worked on it, Top8ed in tourneys with it, etc... for more than a year), and I don't have a better 40-60 record.

[Razvan]

* If Tog goes broken, Tog wins.
* If $T4KS goes broken, $T4KS wins.
* If no deck has a broken start, Tog has the edge.

Well, the first two are obviously axiomatic, and the third one is up to debate. I do agree with you that in a normal game, especially if Tog goes first, Tog has the edge (not quite "wreck" though).

The problem people usually have, as JP pointed, is that they don't know how to play Tog.

This is probably very true.

They want to play the Control role here and then they lose.

I think this is a feature of Stax. If still alive after turn 4-5 (and mean that in the broad sense, as in control of the game is still up in the air), I think that the edge slowly shifts towards it.

You are right on the fact that Tog cannot win the attrition war, and playing control is just that.

This is normal, because with all his disruption, $T4KS has a better mid/late game plan (not taking Pernicious Deed into account).

I think the moment it has a Sphere and a Smokestack down, and the Tog player doesn't have a clear avenue (not enough cards to win straight out), the game is probably over.

If the Tog player focuses on drawing, dropping a Tog and swinging, then he has the advantage.

Yeah, try to go under the radar.

The good thing, for the $T4KS player, is that the Tog player will often Cunning Wish for removal instead of dropping a Tog, and lose because they needed one more turn to kill before a Stax cleans the board.

Problem becomes that Tog does need to cast 2-3 spells in a turn, which Trinisphere negates. At that point, I can see the Tog player having 4 cards in hand, 4 cards in the grave, and 3-4 cards in play. If someone drops a brick wall that is Karn, with the Draw engine stunt(ed)...

I also frequently put 3 Karn's in my Stax deck. I am not sure, but this often helps a lot. At that point, the Tog has to run through many walls, and might not be able to punch through.

The power of Workshop and Trinisphere...

Also, one more thing is. At the beginning:

* If Tog goes broken, Tog wins.
* If $T4KS goes broken, $T4KS wins.
* If no deck has a broken start, Tog has the edge.

This might be out of left-field, but maybe... Stax has a lot more broken starts than Tog? This could even stuff out somewhat.

I consider myself as an experimented $T4KS player (I've worked on it, Top8ed in tourneys with it, etc... for more than a year), and I don't have a better 40-60 record.

I haven't played enough (or rather, documented enough) to notice. In a play session, it's always 6-5, 4-3... it swings either way. I would place it at 50-50 (based on similar skill level, which is also hard to judge). But, since you do have more experience than I do, I must concede to you. For now .

[Apollyon]

In my build, I've noticed that it's draw-dependant. Who gets the best draw wins. Stax was built to beat GAT, and part of that face-smashery carries over into the matchup against Hulk.

I'm by no means an expert. However, I like to consider myself decent. When I see my opponent play Tog, I know it's going to be a tough match.

[nietzreznor]

I think people are making trinisphere and Smokestack sound like greater threats than they actually are.  Obviously, if they come out early, in multitude, Stax will win (Stax wins if it goes broken).  But, normally, neither of these two does enough against Tog.  Trinisphere doesn't affect the cost of Tog or Cunning Wish, and all Smokestack really does is put a few more cards in Tog's graveyard (ie, adds a few more damage).

[Razvan]

Trinisphere doesn't affect the cost of Tog or Cunning Wish

No, but it seriously hampers their draw and counter ability.

and all Smokestack really does is put a few more cards in Tog's graveyard (ie, adds a few more damage).

That is the added risk, but the extra 1-2 point of damage don't matter if you can wrestle away and survive the Tog.

[Apollyon]

Or more accurately: The extra 1-2 points of damage don't mean much if your board is clear, and all your spells cost lots of mana. Once Stax gets a hard lock, you just give up, because at that point, winning is a mere formality. You have no lands, and no mana acceleration that's castable off 1 land.

[Toad]

I'm sad because It looks like you've never played against good Tog players.

[riggy]

I have played against several good Tog players (Soupboy - TMDer, and a local whose TMD name I don't know) and I find that barring broken starts, I'll lose in the later games because Tog's sideboard options are better than mine.

I play U/R stacker and U/R slaver. I can bring in a second Karn, 4 REBs, and I've toyed with bringing in Kegs and Crypts. Tog has answers like Artifact Mutation, Hurkyl's Recall, Rack and Ruin, BEB, Fire/Ice and more.

While Tog does prefer to just out-and-out win, it sure doesn't hurt to have answers for security's sake.

I have no idea what our actual percentages are. My decks run 4-6 more mana sources than Tog so typically, I get the stronger starts (as opposed to the "broken" starts). Being able to drop 2 prison components first turn is where - I feel - the Workshop player will get the edge.

[LizardKING]

To go back to the original topic, I think Tog has mainly two hard contenders (at least preSB) : Dragon and Slavery.

That said, it is one of the best Tier 1 decks, and looking at the top 8s of the last tournaments, it is very easy to be convinced of that.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Alright, I feel like I have to chime in. I've played wMUD, Stax, Trininstax, and such for the longest time, and I was always under the false illusion that Workshop.dec beats Tog. Then I played against a good player with Tog. I lost pretty horribly. Simply put, IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU HAVE ON THE BOARD as long as there is a tog on the table. when all is said and done, all tog needs to do is untap the little critter. I'm not saying Workshop decks can't win this matchup, I'm just saying that it has a rough time. If you can't play 2 important seplls by turn 2, Tog will win. a first turn trinisphere will often get FoWed, and if you let Mana drain get online, you lose.

As for Tog being overrated, I disagree. IMO, it is one of the best decks you can have access to. Never have I played a deck that beat so many decks with such great consistency. Sure, Tog does have it's few bad matchups, like Slaver, but in general, it's a stellar deck.

[The Atog Lord]

DragonFire,

Issues of your opponents' skill aside, I believe that the faulty assumption which you make is that you confuse the notion of a "good deck" with the notion of a deck that beats everything. One sign of a healty metagame is that no deck is unable to be stopped. You assume that because your Workshop build beats Hulk (and let's assume it does for the moment), then Hulk is a bad deck.

In reality, good decks have some bad matchups. Hulk is a strong deck, but it has a bad matchup against Control Slaver. Control Slaver is a good deck, but it loses to OStompy. And OStompy itself can lose games to....well, you get the idea.