A plea to all experienced nonbudget vintage players....

[Rancor]

As I am sure many of you aware, Aaron put together an extremely accurate metagame anaylisis compiling all the tier one and tier two decks in type one. And he's dead on.

http://www.themanadrain.com/marchmeta.htm

The tier one is made up of...

Slavery, TriniStax, Tog, and Draw7

and the tier two is made up of...

TNT, Madness, Oshawa Stompy, Keeper, Landstill, TPS, Dragon, Survival Mask.

But it brings up one very scary notion. There truly are NO viable budget decks in the format. (neither Bazaar of Bagdad nor Mana Drain consitutes a budget card as a playset WILL run you several hundred).

True, certain very metagame specific decks such as U/R Fish continue to do well in very specific and narrow metas. But in a diverse meta teched out meta, they really don't stand a chance save for the occasional lucky rogue win. And even then, fish must take advantage of very expensive cards like Mana Drain, Ancestral Recall, and Time Walk in order to stand a fighting chance. FCG is by all measures, will be outraced by all combo decks and will usually to any good control player. It's only real chance is in an aggro dominated meta.

And it's more important than ever to have a viable deck that can easily be adapted to a budget version in type one...

Type one is showing a tremendous potential for growth. MOre players are experimenting with the format than ever before. Some say that type one has the potential to become mainstream and even possibly surpass extended in the near future. Innovation and deck diversity can explode faster than ever before.

But this simply won't be possible without atleast one, preferably a few, viable budget decks in the format.

There are far too many players exploring the fromat already for even a fourth of them to be even able to get a the moxen, or a playset of workshops, bazaars or mana drains.

And without these cards, the player simply will not be able to compete on a serious level as it currently stands.

Of course, we could call for the restrictions of Workshop or cheaper artifact hate or some other measure to slow the format down a tad. It is undeniable that the best strategies in the format are artifact/workshop based ones which thanks to their brutal efficency, possession of four permenent black loti, and more powerful recent additions such as mindslaver and trinisphere are now reaching a fundamental turn one/two. And the other decks that manage to take up a few top tier spots only do so by packing powerful artifact hate cards and plenty of acceleration to be able to bring them out fast enough. A simple examination of the decklists prove this point.

But I believe there might be an alternative. I believe there hasn't been enough serious testing done with budget decks. With very few exceptions, few, very few experienced players are taking the time out to try out and refine budget strategies. I think that if some of the more serious players do try them out, we might indeed be able to come up with a few budget decks that can squeeze into the tier two category.

We should actively be trying to developing viable budget versions of fish that operate well against the entire meta without relying on mana drain, ancestral recall, or time walk.

We should be actively trying to find someway to use blacks affordable mana acceleration (dark ritual), black affordable tutors/necro/will, and black extremely powerful disruptive and mana denial elements into a powerful viable mono black deck of some sort (maybe even a black control deck).

We, the players experienced in vintage, should open, partake in and encourage such discussion instead of ridiculing it, ignoring it or worse yet closing it for the newer players to figure out.

While the format is fine for those with power. It is nothing short of inaccesable to those without it. And there simply isn't enough power to be granted by every player in type one.

Afterall, this would only increase deck diversity and variability. And that's always  a good goal.

A sanctioned format needs to have some semblance of balance. There is no balance when the cards that one must absolutely have to be viable are so limited in number that probably only a tenth of the community can ever get access to them.

And even after then, if AND ONLY IF we find that a viable budget deck is not possible, should we encourage the dci to bring the fundamental turn back to two or three and restrict overpowered tempo breakers like workshops.

And that is the only way that vintage will attain the growth it has the potential to. It is the only way the influx of players now exploring the format will stay. And wizards has already openly stated that they will increase support for type one if the barrier for entry is reduced and it thus becomes more mainstream.

Thus I think this is a VERY important goal.

If budget thrives in Vintage, Vintage WILL grow as a format, Vintage will act as a haven for players who are sick of other formats and would otherwise quit magic etc. It will make magic healthy and strong. And it will help Wizards of the Coast. It is after all loyal vintage players who recruit the most number of new players into the game. Vintage players do buy several packs of good sets like onslaught and mirrodian for the good cards like nantuko shades, chalice of the voids etc. Collectors and stores too will see the value of their cards rise as current vintage players become more dedicated to it and play it more.

Once vintage grows and becomes slightly less broken and more budget friendly, Wizards can hold santioned vintage tournaments. This will also generate a lot of money.

It's a win win solution. Everyone comes out the better for it.

[Rico Suave]

I voted no, because I'm not going to spend time thinking about budget ideas in a format where Moxen exist.  It's really that simple.

[Apollyon]

The problem with budget is that decks with Power > decks without Power.

[jpmeyer]

When I build decks, I build them to be the best that they can be and if you artificially handicap the deck, it can't be the best that it can be.

[centroles]

This is Rancor btw, this computer always logs me on under a different name and I forget to change it.

Then how do you explain the fact that up till the point when TnT showed up, several budget decks were indeed very viable and very competitive.

There are lots of ways to get around power. You can match it with budget accleration of your own (dark ritual or ancient tomb for example).

You can shut down artifact mana with cards like null rod, mox monkey among others and then further attack their mana base making it a liability.

You can simply try to outrace with faster creatures.

I think that with some tuning, we might be able to turn the balance again.

We certainly need to, DESPERATELY.

This is only way that we can get all the people exploring vintage to stay. It's the only way to make type one more mainstream and get wizards to support it. It's the best way to fuel innovation and expansion of the format.

There are too many benefits it offers to not even bother to try.

[jpmeyer]

The format was underexplored.  Not enough people were around to both play the format (meaning that decks like U/R Stacker weren't as heavily played as they could/should've been) and to break it back then.

[Zherbus]

Quite simply, pre-TnT was mostly pre-TMD. This leaves you with BD as the only place for Type 1 and that was very much a niche community for a very small format. It's grown since then and with more people came more people actually taking advantage of a wide-open card pool.

[Smmenen]

I'm sorry but I have no interest in building decks without power.  That's why I play this format.

Steve

[Dr. Sylvan]

::le sigh::

[Jacob Orlove]

Proxy tournaments exist for a reason.

[Rancor]

Few people let you play with proxies. A few tournaments here and there allow them but many major ones do not. They're certainly not allowed in most small less organized groups. Proxies aren't the answer. Innovating the format is.

Frankly, I want to see vintage grow as a format. I want to not have to drive 80 miles to play with 15 or so other vintage players once a week.

I think we all would like that. And this is the only way it's going to happen.

There was lots of innovation prior to TnT. TnT was relatively recent.

If you go back and look over rasko's old articles pre TnT.

You'll see plenty of new decks that popped up. You'll see a new version of keeper every month.

You'll see everything from mask, sui black, fish, grow, sligh, goblins. academy, keeper, bbs and about billion other decks.

Truly. THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE DECKS WE NOW PLAY WERE DEVELOPED PRIOR TO TNT.

In fact, I think we can trace the disapperance of budget decks the moment that Workshop started to be abused.

There are plenty of ways that budget decks could take out power cards without losing tempo (Null Rod, Mox Monkey, Powder Keg etc.) And by the time the moxen are taken out, they typically haven't done all that much. They may have generated one extra mana or so, usually not enough to cast anything that would swing the game.

But Workshop is different. It's a permanent source of three mana each turn. Even without, but especially when used in conjuction with moxen, it's a nightmare of a card for budget decks to try and compete with.

Even if the player manages to strip it the first turn, it likely already generated so much mana that they got out a game swinging card turn one, Tangle Wire, Smokestack, Juggernaut, etc etc etc.

Budget decks already suffered a bit of a tempo loss from having to deal with moxen. But they could atleast try with cards like Dark Ritual, Sol Ring and Ancient Tomb.

But having to also cope with the massive tempo loss that workshop offers is simply too much. In this way, Workshop truly did destroy budget decks. It shut off so many decks and strategies that it's unbelievable.

After that, people simply stopped playing budget. They stopped trying to innovate it.

The massive advantage that Workshop offers on top of the Moxen is obvious. Look at the tier stance. The top tier decks are Workshop based and they don't really pack much hate. The only other decks that can compete with Workshop based decks are those that pack powerful hate cards against artifacts and use the moxen to try to race them to play these hate cards.

But I'm not ready to give up yet. The cause of having vintage expand is important enough that we have a responsibility to try and innovate some budget decks to make them competitive. I have a great deal of respect for those that try, like the creator of FCG (though it's really not close to tier one unfortunately).

But if more people tried, I'm certain we can pull it off.

[Crovax]

Do you like hearing yourself talk centroles? It's obvious that your Rancor.  

[Smash]

The problem is where you want to restrict magic cards for money reasons. Magic decisions of restrictions should NOT be about money, it is about power of a card.

[Zherbus]

You'll see everything from mask, sui black, fish, grow, sligh, goblins. academy, keeper, bbs and about billion other decks.

Actually, it stops there. What you said minus 'billion other decks'. You named them all and honestly if an all-sets-ever format consisted of all mono-colored decks plus Keeper (hardley anyone played academy - don't be fooled), then you know there is a severe lack of innovation. Zoo hadn't been good since Serra Angel was good, so that doesn't count. Workshop sat around and rotted in horrible Tubbies decks until TnT - only then did people start making GOOD decks with it. Bazaar? Nothing. All the Madness cards and Dragon cards were in print at the time too.

Oh, and pick an account and stick with it. I'll delete the one you don't post with next.

[jpmeyer]

Prior to TnT you had:

Keeper
Mono-blue
Stacker
Suicide
Sligh
Stompy

Those were really the only decks that people considered.  Out of those, mono-blue, Suicide, Sligh, and Stompy were all Standard decks that just had like Sinkhole or Lightning Bolt added to them, which hardly counts as "innovation."

Mask, Gro, Madness, Dragon, Tog, Stax/Mud/Slaver, Long.dec, 7et al didn't come out until after TnT did, part of which was due to the fact that the cards that enabled those decks didn't exist until around that time, either.  Keeper is the only deck that I can think of that people think of as defining Type 1 that was around prior to TnT.

[nataz]

2 points

1) Gay Red: It doesn’t run Mana Drains, and it does do well. I noticed for March that fish took home 4 top 8 spots (stealing snippets from a post by Dr. Sylvan). This is equal to dragon, rector, food Chain, and only 1 less then keeper. The only decks that had more top 8's were kepper (with one) and tog with a billion or so. So there you go, budget, but more importantly competitive.  

2) How can you say that most of the decks were developed prior to TnT? TnT was developed before I got into type one, and almost all of the decks in Kerz's Metagame article (which you call dead on) were released while I was playing.

Madness, O-stompy, all the togs (as hulk smash), landstill (both colors), Dragon, TPS, Draw 7, Slavery, and TriniStax.

The only ones that were here before I started playing (and therefore as far as I know could have been developed pre-TnT) were GAT, and Mask!

[Rancor]

JPmeyer and nataz, you're wrong. Go back and scan through rasko's old articles.

I was around well before TnT. I remember all the old decks around back then. There were as many back then that did well as there are now.

There was grow, academy, land still, goblins, trix, parfait, white weenie, mask, and a whole bunch of other decks you left off.

Truly, just about every deck we play now except for workshop was around back then too. The decks just changed with the new cards that came out. And a few new decks came out as a result of new cards and combos (Tog, Tendrils, and Dragon come to mind).

But many of the old decks were killed off by TnT as well. And I think that an argument can be made that there were actually more viable decks around back then than there are now.

The only new decks that came out tps, slavery, rector trix using cabal therapy, dragon, madness, tog are ALL the results of cards that came out after TnT.

The format was as innovative as it could have been back then.

I challenge you to name a single competitive deck that is now around that was possible back then with the cards that were out back then.

[Diakonov]

I'm sorry Rancor/centroles, but I had to vote No on this one.  

If individuals want to innovate budget decks, then by all means.  You can't blame them for trying to make the best of what they have.  However, it would be unfair to include this movement as a one of TMD's responsibilities, as most players would really like to focus their testing on the most competitive decks, ignoring the complications of obtaining power.  

Personally, I have no power, so I do my best to get by with budget decks (or I borrow powered decks).  I don't expect players who have power to bother spending time on budget decks, but by the same token I respect people who try to improve their budget decks out of necessity.

[nataz]

"I challenge you to name a single competitive deck that is now around that was possible back then with the cards that were out back then."

Mud-esq style prison decks.

[Rancor]

I'm not saying we should restrict anything. I'm simply saying that we should make an effort to make more budget decks that are viable.

It is for the good of the format. We want all the new players now trying out the format to stick around and play competitively. But there aren't enough power cards to go around.

If they stick around and the format expands, it will make vintage so much more fun.

It'll make it diverse, easy to find people to play. Wizards will probalby hold santioned tournaments as they promised. And it would be fairer too.

I'm saying that we shouldn't even consider restrictions or asking wizards for better hate cards until we try this first.

Only if we fail should we even consider asking wizards to print cheaper artifact hate for all the colors.

Only if we fail should we even consider askomg them to consider restricting Workshop.

And even if that happens, it wouldn't be a big deal. Artifact based strategies certainly wouldn't die. Ancient tomb is ready to Workshops place. The decks have so many more acclerants and lock pieces to work with now.

But they would slowed a bit, a bit more balanced. Budget decks could once again go back to the days when they had to cope with only one tempo loss (power) with cards like Null Rod and Mox Monkey. They wouldn't have to worry about a turn one juggernaut staring them before they can even play land.

I think the innovation that would spur, the number of new decks made viable, the number of players that will be able to stay in type one, the expansion of the format into a mainstream one are well worth the costs.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

nataz, we're talking about pre TnT here. Before workshops were brought into peoples attention. Mud came about from Workshops.

The fact is, all the decks we have now were either around in some form before TnT or wouldn't have been possible without cards printed after TnT.

Infact, many of these newer decks from new cards like Long, Tog etc are derived from older decks like Academy and Grow.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Getting back to topic, I cant believe the number of people here voting against us atleast trying to give budget a slot in vintage again.

Do you guys not realize how many players competitive vintage stands to gain if we give them budget alternatives to try out?

Do you guys not realize how much the format can grow, how someday we can play large vintage tourneys in the local card shops, play in sanctioned tournaments etc?

Do you guys not realize how much the expansion would innovate the format, diversify it?

How could any vintage player not want that? How  could they prefer to always just play with the same handful or so people that lucked out and got the last few power cards? How could they prefer having to drive for hours to play a small tourney once a month?

[FreddieNDB]

This topic is a bit hard to discuss, but I will give it a shot.

I myself am a budget player (I get to borrow power and stuff from friends though luckily). I woudl definately like to see competative budget decks being built to help t1 grow. The more t1 grows the better.

However, you specifically ask those players who have power to build decks for other players. I do like it when older T1 players make sacrifices for T1( just as my older T1 buddies like it). But it may be a little much to be asking these players to spend hours building a deck which in the end they won't play. It seems that these older T1 players already spends much of thier time working on theie powered decks and they don't want to sacrifice the quality of those decks for the budget ones.

My buddy (TheJinnHong on TMD) and I discussed a topic very similar to this last Friday. Jinn brought up the three cards Bazzar, Workshop, and Mana Drain as Rancor did. And he stated that if you look at any tier 1 or tier 2 deck in the guanlet currently at least one set of one of the cards is in each deck. He was explaining the fact that any constitantly competative T1 deck consists of at least a set one of those cards.

Obviously, it is extremely difficult for the newer players to obtain a set of these cards even if they have the money because thier are only so many of these cards. And when you play with an unpowered deck, no matter how much play testing and tweaking you put into it, your deck is still weaker then those with the power. It is also not until you play the unpowered deck that you realise just how borken Workshop, Drain, and Baazar acutally are.

He went on to state that these three cards limited how diverse the gaunlet could be. His radical solution was the restriction of all three of these cards. Before you all go off on me for even mentioning this let me elaborate:

First and foremost, all three cards must be restricted not only workshop. If only workshop is restricted then all that will do is decrease the gaunlet even more because now the drain based and baazar based decks will be the best decks.

These restrictions will thus allow more of the sub-par decks to enter the tier 2 category and many of the Tier decks will morph. These restictions would also allow for more cards to become viable (i.e. sylvan scrying and crop rotation for decks that still want to use baazar and Workshop).

I agreed with Jinn in every way except I debated the fear that after these restrictions there might be a decline in the gaunlet, then an improvement as new archetypes were formed, but then a reamergance of three different cards that now would become the nescarry cards and thus we woudl be back where we started only with different cards. We went back and forth debating and still ,however, have not come to our conclusion.

I believe that this is the topic that needs to be discussed (not asking other players to take thier own time to build decks for other people) because I think that the restriction of baazar, workshop, and mana drain shows the most promise in leveling the playing field and promoting growth and health in T1.

[nataz]

I don't think it is TMD's responsibility to help budget players, however I think it is possible to argue that a competitive budget deck would do wonders for the format just by simply increasing its number of players.

I look at TMD as a place to find decks that win. I think that is why a lot of people come here. That is what makes this a top notch site, real, playtested, up-to-date, and proven data. Although I think it would be a positive thing if a competitive budget deck existed,  I cant think of a way that would be possible in a format with power (and drains, bazaars, workshops etc.)  

so if someone can do it, bravo to them. But it seems to me like a lost cause.

[jpmeyer]

JPmeyer and nataz, you're wrong. Go back and scan through rasko's old articles.

I was around well before TnT. I remember all the old decks around back then. There were as many back then that did well as there are now.

There was grow, academy, land still, goblins, trix, parfait, white weenie, mask, and a whole bunch of other decks you left off.

Truly, just about every deck we play now except for workshop was around back then too. The decks just changed with the new cards that came out. And a few new decks came out as a result of new cards and combos (Tog, Tendrils, and Dragon come to mind).

But many of the old decks were killed off by TnT as well. And I think that an argument can be made that there were actually more viable decks around back then than there are now.

The only new decks that came out tps, slavery, rector trix using cabal therapy, dragon, madness, tog are ALL the results of cards that came out after TnT.

The format was as innovative as it could have been back then.

I challenge you to name a single competitive deck that is now around that was possible back then with the cards that were out back then.

Oscar Tan's pre-TnT era writeups consist only of Stacker (which he didn't even write until TnT was out,) Suicide, Zoo, Sligh, and Stompy.  I looked at his Feature Writer page on SCG for this.  The only deck there that I hadn't listed was Zoo, which has not been playable in its classic form (since you could argue that the U/G/R Madness decks were similar to Zoo decks) since Black Vise was restricted.

Decks that were possible then but weren't played:

Tog: Was possible Fall 2001, didn't come around until Winter 2002-03
Mud/Stax: Was possible Spring 2000 (Tangle Wire,) didn't come around until Winter 2002-03
Gro: Was possible Winter/Spring 2001, didn't come out until Summer 2002 and in GAT form until Winter 2002-03
Madness: Was possible Winter/Spring 2002, didn't come around until Winter/Spring 2003
Fish (pretty much every form): Was possible like Spring/Summer 2000, didn't come around until Winter/Spring 2003
Food Chain Goblins: Was possible Summer 2001, didn't come around until Winter 2003

[Zherbus]

Do you guys not realize how many players competitive vintage stands to gain if we give them budget alternatives to try out?

FACT: When type 1 had Sligh, Suicide, Parfait, Stompy, etc as all viable options - there was a much smaller playerbase.

Do you guys not realize how much the format can grow, how someday we can play large vintage tourneys in the local card shops, play in sanctioned tournaments etc?

FACT: The format has grown so much in 2 years, that a once $90 Mox, $25 Workshop, and $15 Bazaar now sell for $200+, $150, and $100. Also, tournaments in places such as Waterbury, Dulmen, and Gencon are at all-time record highs.

How could any vintage player not want that? How could they prefer to always just play with the same handful or so people that lucked out and got the last few power cards? How could they prefer having to drive for hours to play a small tourney once a month?

How could any type 2 player want to play with the same handful of people in crappy-skill-level FNM tournaments?

I challenge you to name a single competitive deck that is now around that was possible back then with the cards that were out back then.

As Nataz already said - the components for Tog, Mud, Stax, Landstill, and Dragon are the obvious ones.

[Rancor]

jpmeyers and zherbus, your estimations seem late. the decks actually emerged well before that. They just didn't become accepted as mainstream and very competitive until later once they placed in several tournaments. this wasn't as much a lack of innovation as it was a simple byproduct of the fact that there weren't as many tournaments held back then as there are now.

the reason there are so many more tourneys now is because a bunch of people from extended etc are explorign type 1. this is why you run into so many subpar decks in most tourneys. if we don't give these guys some options for decks they can play, they will leave. there simply aren't enough power cards to go around, which is why the prices for these cards soared so much. the format will not just fail to reach it's full potential. i fear that the number of players and tourneys will decrease quite a bit from waht it is now.


Freddie, what you're promosing while appealing to some degree is also i think premature.

I think that we can with some research and playtesting develop budget decks that atleast come close to tier two.

fish is a start but it needs to be innovated a decent bit to truly compensenate for the loss of mana drain, ancestral recall, timewalk, moxen etc and still be competitive.

and i would like to more than just one option for budget players.

If I'm wrong though. If the power level of these three cards is so high that no budget deck can compensate for them while compensating for the moxen as well, then perhaps it is time for restrictions.

These three cards are obviously far more powerful than many currently restricted stuff like Fork. And I think that a bunch more decks would be viable with them gone. I also think that the decks that currently use them can all be changed to make due without them and still remain very competitive.

First and foremost, I want vintage to grow. I want all the new people trying it out to find a few decks they can afford and play and stick around. I want vintage players to be all over the place. I want sanctioned tournaments. I want more deck diversity. I want more vintage research and development.

And if restrictions prove the only this is possible, then they may be needed.

But for now, lets try to innovate the format as it currently is instead. I would much rather like to see budget decks competive without having to restrict anything.

[FreddieNDB]

Rancor, I certainly agree with you that we should try to inovate decks before the restrictions. Of course this topic is relativly new ( Me and Jinn only began discussing it last Friday).

However, I think it is asking too much, or maybe to specifically, that the more experienced powered T1 players build buget decks for other players. Maybe you should broaden the terms. I think I am capable of building competative budget decks and I think there are many other budget players who have been palying for only about a year who woudl be willing to also.

Maybe, you should ask these T1 players to make an effort to put in good suggestions into the budget forum because when I skim through it seems to me that its mainly just the budget players talking amongst themselves.

[Rancor]

the fact is, a lot of these budget players are already trying to build budget decks. they're trying to find a deck that can win. they're for the most part failing.

the reason is because they don't have as much experience with the format. a powered player plays against powered decks, in competitive environments a lot more. they know the ins and outs of good decks and their weaknesses. they know how to metagame. they simply have a lot more experience with the game and with playing winning decks.

that's why they need to get involved in the process too if we are to speed up the process of developing a budget viable deck.

only after we all try and fail should we consider restrictions.

but we should also open ourselves to the possibilies that restrictions may occur in the future for the good of the format.

i think most of us would welcome a few restrictions if it means that vintage becomes mainstream and popular and more diverse.

note: i have to go to bed now and probaly wont be able to post again for a few days. but please keep this discussion going. and have patience, i will respond to your posts once i get back.

[nataz]

arrrggg...

This may be nit-picking because it does use recall and walk, but fish does not use DRAINS! I dont know where you are getting that info from, but its incorrect (about $280 dollars per play-set per fish deck incorrect ).

I would love to see the format grow, and as a player who at best borrows power cards (all I have is a LOA) I would love to see prices go down. However, competitive budget decks are not the answer because they simply do not exist.

I am worried about prices, because they are an obsticle to getting into the game. I know a lot of people say "hey, its an investment, just deal with it", now that mox's are 250 a pop, but what happens when mox's hit 300, or 400, or even a 1000.  As more people play, more people will want powerful cards, and that will drive the price up.

Type one isnt standard, and therefore has no rotation. Cards like drains and power are way overpowered, and nothing like them will ever be printed again. This means that unlike standard we have no price check over time, and more people simply = higher prices. If cards like recall are needed for "every" deck to be competitive then there is a known type one cealing of players. Its simply the print run of recalls, there can be no more, unless new players are willing to always play at a disadvantage.

Im not sure how to fix this, I dont like restrictions (because eventualy it wont matter, ex. the Moxen), and I dont think WTC will ever reprint. Proxies kill the old school collectors, not to mention WTC will never allow it.

maybe we need to rotate type one, we can call it type .5 or something, and rotate out alpha-unlimited.

that went a little longer then I meant it, but I guess thats cause it does worry me.

Are we forever doomed to be the red-headed step-child of magic formats, or is there a solution? (read: not budget decks)

[jpmeyer]

I was on BD from 1999 to when the site closed in 2002 and been on TMD since the beginning (I was the 2nd person chosen as a mod.)  You're going to have to prove to me that these decks came out before then, because there was no proof of them on either of those sites prior to the times that I listed for them.  And not only that, but every deck I listed there was possible AT LEAST an entire year before it was played, and in some cases multiple years so it's not like it might've taken a month or two for the deck to catch on.  These are YEARS.

Also, Extended and Standard have provided many of Type 1's best decks.  Tog is well, Tog and Madness is well, Madness.  Workshop Slaver is based on the Slaver deck that won Pro Tour New Orleans.  Gro was the premier Extended deck prior to the set rotation in 2002.  Fish debuted at PT Rome in 1998 putting multiple people into the top 8.

[Zherbus]

jpmeyers and zherbus, your estimations seem late. the decks actually emerged well before that. They just didn't become accepted as mainstream and very competitive until later once they placed in several tournaments. this wasn't as much a lack of innovation as it was a simple byproduct of the fact that there weren't as many tournaments held back then as there are now.

Firstly, JP and I were in the type 1 scene back then, these are eye-witness accounts not weak assumptions made from looking at Rakso's crappy articles.

Show me 1 Bazaar Dragon deck discussion predateing TnT. Our archives go back that far, so it shouldn't be hard. Then do the same for Stax and Mud... then do it for Hulk.

Of course you won't be able to and your reason will be: "Just because it wasn't on TMD doesn't mean it existed." Which then you'll put ownership on us to prove to you that these decks didn't exist. I can tell you right now they didn't in the Northeast, the midwest, or the westcoasts major hot spots. The germans, and I can verify this easily enough, innovated plenty with Workshop but only as Tubbies variants.

It has nothing to do with obscurity versus mainstream. It simply wasn't there as far as anyone in this community can tell and that covers a shit-ton of ground.