OPERATION SCORCHED EARTH

[jpmeyer]

The overal quality of the site has dropped tremendously in the last month.  In response to this, the mods, admins, and adepts are going to lock threads much more frequently and much sooner than usual.  We are also going to be much more liberal with warnings and bannings.

[Androstanolone]

I'll be flaming the blatantly stupid ones, in an effort to help the overworked tmd staff.

[Jacob Orlove]

I'll be making things worse, to annoy the overworked tmd staff.

Flaming is bad. Report posts instead.

[MarkPharaoh]

I'll be flaming the blatantly stupid ones, in an effort to help the overworked tmd staff.

I can't tell if this is a joke or not /=

[Tempe]

I hope this works, as I have also noticed this drop in quality. I responded in full on Ric_Flair's thread, so I won't do it here. I have two questions though.

1. When the mods start looking at threads more often, will they also be looking for members who they think are worthy of full membership, as well as posts that are warn/bannable?

2. Exactly what measures will the mods be taking? Anything specific, or just spending more time on the forums, and being a little more liberal with giving out warnings? An example would be locking threads until the open ones looked similar in quality to those in the "real" type 1 forum.

--Tempe

[jpmeyer]

With the decline, it's been harder and harder for us to even notice people that we would want to promote.

Basically, like I said in the original post, we are going to be deal more with more rapid lockings of posts.  Warnings are more for when people flame or simply add posts that add nothing to the topic and bannings are mostly just for people that can't seem to follow the rules.  For instance, if you post a couple decklists with nothing else, that's a banning.  It shows that you don't know how to follow the rules.

[Dante]

Is there any way for topics that were moved to not show up in the original forum, or is that an inherent flaw/feature of the software?  One thing that clutters things up in the open forum that is annoying to weed through is the first page having 1/3 - 1/2 of the topics locked or moved.  If they just disappeared, it would make it easier to get at the real "meat".

Bill

[Jacob Orlove]

We can move the thread completely, but that often causes confusion when people go to look for it.

[Tempe]

Perhaps there should be an option to hide locked and moved threads? Or even just turning the title of the thread to a different color besides the two shades of blues would be enough.

In concern of making members into "full member status," the application for that status is still up, correct? I think that would be a good way for people who think that they deserve the status to still "stand out" among others.

--Tempe

[Zherbus]

Perhaps there should be an option to hide locked and moved threads? Or even just turning the title of the thread to a different color besides the two shades of blues would be enough.

I refuse to have something like that specially coded to our forums.

[Rico Suave]

In concern of making members into "full member status," the application for that status is still up, correct? I think that would be a good way for people who think that they deserve the status to still "stand out" among others.

Yes.  That application is called "The Open T1 Forum," and it's still up.

[Mixing Mike]

You can also send a Mod an Application with links to this site and others for proof of your merit.  Though, they do not tell you if you are not promoted, and if you are, you'll see it change on your account.

If you ask me, I think this should be a Closed T1 Forum of a sort of intermediate member.  Not quite Full member, but not quite totally new to anything here.  I know it's impossible to do this, but it's similar to having people like ELD posting in the 'Closed' T1 Forum, only it's for the not so fully regged, sort of having the more watched unreggies, or highest potential players post there.  That would raise the level of threads indeed.

[xrizzo]

Just to be fair, the material in the Open, Budget, and Newbie forums are all significantly better thatn the T1 forum for members only.

The T1 forum has been absolute crap (with very few good posts) since this site re-opened.

In general, I would support a forum which contains a fewer number of threads like the T1 forum, but with higher quality posts.  Post count seems to be the biggest perogative (sp?) for most people now...

Anyway - I am not just going to throw out a problem without a small bit of analysis, so I think the main cause for this is basically a lack of playtesting.  (been said before by me and others)  Without playtesting new ideas, there isnt much to report on - and in general I think we are just in a lull.  I would hypothesize that as we get closer to spring and summer (and more tourneys) the innovation will pick up again.

Anyway - the few people that do a great job, thanks for keeping this site afloat - and the rest of us (myself included) need to pick it up a notch.

[Shadow Ninja]

If it's not a problem, I'd just like to transplant the comments I recently made in the other (closed) thread to this one:

"I would think creating an additional level of membership would increase the mods and VAs work exponentially, because now you have to look for the regular members who suck too much and should be newbies, or who provide good solid posts and should be promoted. Furthermore, you have to watch the newbies and see if any mature enough to become regulars again, or if they're lost causes, in which case they either remain newbies for life or are banned or whatever. That'd be a lot of time that would be better invested in further developing the format.

I consider myself someone who knows a little about a lot in T1, and I've found that I know a lot about little (my experiences being mostly with Stax, TnT, and Sui Black). When I post things about those decks, though, I really can never be sure if my comments are being taken seriously, or if they are just falling on deaf ears. This is most likely because of the natural arrogance exhuded by the full access members. You full access guys have worked hard to become the best, and I applaud you for that, but sometimes this status leads to the point where the best are the only ones who matter. I don't believe that's how it should be.

A good case in point would be everyone's good friend Dr. Sylvan. Having known him personally and having seen him play, I can attest to the fact that, while he may not be the best player out there, he certainly does bring a sharp analytical eye to the game, and this analytical eye has led to some very interesting looks at decks and the format in general. However, Phil's already had earned his respect, and his shtick for analysis will be his forever. For those of us who have yet to earn this esteem, and with it full membership, it can seem like there is nothing we can do and no way we can hope to provide "what it takes" to attain that level of awesome.

I guess what I am trying to show is that there may be some good souls out there who just don't know what to say that hasn't already been said. I could go on and on about U/R Trinistax for hours, but Toad's already done a pretty good job with his development of that deck, so why should I bother, especially if I, for the most part, agree with his build? It provides a very difficult challenge for knowing what I can do to prove my worth. But I am content to wait awhile, and at some point opportunity will knock. In the meantime, I post very little, as there seems to be little to say about those things I do know about."

[JuJu]

I didn't want to say this, but I think I'm going to have to. The whole lack of discussion is in large part to team discussions. Although since Dave's(Eastman's) thread about it, alot more teams are sharing it here, which makes it a bit better. Another thing that's bothering me is how much Playtesting I and obviously others want to put in, but can't. This summer, and most probably after Gencon, things should hopefully pick up.

Of course there's a lack of actually good discussions going on around here, I remember on the old TMD where there were a couple threads reaching into the 60-80s, a half a dozen or so in the 20-40 and every day about 3 or 4 would be added, but they were all good. Of course, we can't get the old TMD back, but I think we have to be alot more patient about the quality posting.

In my position, I'm finding it very hard to post anything that hasn't already been said. With Smenny, JayPee, and CCW's Articles, almost anything worth asking has already been answered, or doesn't need a thread to answer that question. In light of this, I'd ask the VA's and the Mod's to perhaps re-create that thread from the old TMD that Azrhei had started for specific question, not sure if it'd work out, but it might be able to spark our need for Debate.

[Matt]

It HAS been recreated. It's even stickied. Use your eyes, eh?

[Dr. Sylvan]

Just to be fair, the material in the Open, Budget, and Newbie forums are all significantly better thatn the T1 forum for members only.

The T1 forum has been absolute crap (with very few good posts) since this site re-opened.

An assertion like this would be better with examples. I hardly see anything I would call a weak thread, let alone worse than the open-registration forums.

At the risk of tooting my own horn, I found TMD in September and was promoted in December--before I started doing statistics articles, and without winning a tournament or innovating a deck. Those are not the only avenues, and like JP said in Tony's thread, membership is an e-penis thing often enough anyway. Even consistently asking the right questions to make the experts reconsider their assumptions is a worthwhile effort, and will get you respect.

The cardinal rule is to think before you post, and try to say something of substance. I don't think I made a single one-line post before being promoted, and that's a good rule of thumb. Moderators and other users don't know what your assumptions are unless you explain them, whereas we know the background information behind most things that a more-prominent member posts. (It sucks, but even my anal retentive proclivities don't swing to "memorize what 1400 different people think about Type One, then keep up with the changes".) If I say something about a deck winning, most TMDers (the cool ones, of course) will know what I've written before and understand that I'm referring to tabulated results of tournaments. If someone said the same thing on their first post it would look totally out of place, because there would be no context. So explain yourself, and your posts will generate much better discussion, until eventually, you too can make lazy one-liners that everyone understands anyway. :)

In light of this, I'd ask the VA's and the Mod's to perhaps re-create that thread from the old TMD that Azrhei had started for specific question, not sure if it'd work out, but it might be able to spark our need for Debate.

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15615

[Lockdown]

I posted this in the Budget Forum's version of this thread, but since this thread seems to be getting more views, I'm moving it here instead (and by move, I mean deleting my old post and posting a new one here):

Yeah, we appreciate it. If there's something else that we can do to help, besides following the basic guideline for posting/forum rules, name it. However, it is rather disconcerting that in basically all the open forums, there are more locked than unlocked threads. Still, in response to Zherbus's comment about the possibility of merging the Budget forum with the Newbie forum, I believe that they should remain separate, the way they are right now. In order to improve the quality of posts, I would recommend the following system, that hopefully would not cause Zherbus/Leviat too much work to implement:

1) Basic TMD Users start with access to Open, Budget, Newbie, Casual, Rules, and Fantasy Cards. (As it is right now)
2) (My modificiation) Users would receive warnings for any infraction on the basic rules/posting guidelines. These users that received warnings would be restricted to posting in the Newbie Forum until it was deemed that the user deserved to have the warning removed.
3) Perhaps warnings could last 30 days, and at the end of that time period, the warnings would be removed. If the user received another warning during that time period, the account would be banned.

[Dozer]

I wonder, is promotion to VA status (or whatever else) really a major motivation for people to post? I have no insight on this, so I ask all Mods and/or VA's and anybody else who watches these boards closer than I do: Is it true?

If yes, I can only appeal to all those people: Don't. Having a large ego is good, but needing an online promotion on some message board as the basis for one's ego is not. Honestly, it isn't.
People are flocking here because this is the only real T1 information source apart from the SCG articles by Phil, jp, and Steven Menendian. And if we, those very people, want to keep it that way, we all need to contribute. I, for one, enjoy the Open Forum a lot, mostly because of the Mod work who keep a very close watch for chaff, to which I say thanks. And even if you are trying to contribute, I find the most effective self control mechanism comes from answering the following question:
 
Would I want to have this as a response on one of MY threads?

If no, don't post it. If yes, go ahead. (I actually don't know if this is in the rules, but I think Zherbus has said this before, too.)

(And if your standard is as low as accepting one-liners as a suitable response, go somewhere else. That is definitely not quality, unless it comes from Azhrei, who has posted the most informative one-liners I have ever seen in the past. But neiter you nor I are Azhrei, so either go away or lurk and learn.)

Dozer

[Shadow Ninja]

A major motivation?  No, not really.  The respect gained from becoming a full TMD member would be nice and all, but it's really only a small thing in my mind.  I just think it'd be nice to be able to post in the "real" T1 forum and know that my opinion would be valued as having thought and/or insight behind it.  But it really isn't that necessary, as far as necessary goes.

[TJ-Whoopy]

I haven't been a TMD member for long and in the month and a half that I've been reading I seen one constant.  Those without full membership want it. wether or not they play it off like it's no big deal everybody wants it.  Hell, I want a big "e-penis" (I'm Irish so it would be a novelty)
In seeking promotion these 'wish-I-could-bee's' read every post by every full member and VA and after seeing their long and convoluted posts, seek produce their own long and insightfull posts. the problem with this is that it only makes them (us) look worse in the eyes of the VAs and mods. because of the fact that they don't fully understand all of the true content of better posts.

The solution in my mind, (at least for now) publically state that there will be no more full memberships granted on anyone. if there is no carrot dangling infront of the faces of the throng they wont feel the compulsion to excreet the digital diarea thats permeated these boards.


perhapse

[jpmeyer]

Part of the reason that the Type 1 forum was getting less posted was because people wanted to include the basic users.  I know personally I've started a lot of threads in the open forum that I could've kept in the closed one, which now that I look back on it would've increased the quality.

[SpencerForHire]

Issue number 1 I have is that people seem to want to be a full member more for the title then the privaleges.  They post a half-baked decklist with no examples and then wonder what happens when it is closed.  I have posted such decklists blindly so I'm not saying I'm above all that.  Peraps you should consider being greatful with what is here, I use these forums to help me progress competitively deckwise.  
A good thing is that the Type 1 Forum for full members only is still visible for the basic users, this allows for some good information on a more reliable source when improving on a deck design.
Issue number 2 is that there are some downs to not being able to be a full member, lack of posting access to community forums is one, this is understandable once again but still a dissapointment.  The beauty of these forums is that we have rights to view it at all, there are some very skilled deckbuilders, some very wise players, and some very insightful information that is imparted on us via these forums.  Instead of of asking for more user levels such as intermediate which would undoubtedly take time out of Zherbus's day, as well as many vintage adepts and others who are in charge of finding the good eggs/bad eggs they can instead do things worth doing, deck research metagame things, primers, articles and god forbid personal things in the real world!

I feel the following should be done:
* Harsher enforcement of unrule-abiding posts. (Closing, warnings, etc...
* Keep the two basics: Basic User/Full User, obviously with the exceptions being VA's and such.
* Less worrying about what your title is and more worrying about contributing back to this community which has given such great insight.
* Kick my *** if I become a hypocrite, thank you.
*

[jpmeyer]

Don't aspire to be a VA.  We have like 50 VA's and the reason we have them at all is to mod.  Maybe if the site like grows out of control we'd need more but it's not the sort of thing to get your hopes up about.

[SpencerForHire]

I'm not trying to be a VA if thats what what you're inferring to (or if you are referring to people in general.  I simply ment it was an exception catagory-wise on all the catagories you should bother with for members..

[JuJu]

First off, I'm sorry for not noticing the thread, I barely ever pay attention to the stickys and maybe now I should.
Second, I think people are right when they say that a full membership, a VA rank or whatever it is that makes you look better will be wanted by those who don't have it. Of course some people will deserve that, and some very well do. However, the fact remains that people often post only for a full membership(I did in the beginning). What people don't understand is that there's nothing special involved with getting a higher rank or whatever you want to call it. People have to understand that this isn't some corporate secret FBI Organization where everything is taken seriously and stuff. If you're going to do something, have fun and post what you think is appropiate. Whoever said that rule about "Post what you would like yourself to read" or whatever was dead on.

-Sry for my post, I'm out the door for a movie and I had to get this off my head.

[BreathWeapon]

To be honest, the ENTIRE site has been starved of quality material for some time, and that includes the T1 Forum. I don't think I have read anything of significant value in the T1 Forum for the past month, at best it moves 2 or 3 posts a day ... all of which seems to be dubious "ho hum" commentary at best. I can't see how you can justify placing the blame solely on the T1 Open Forum. With the notable exception of Steve, I can't say i've learned anything new from the lot of you.

If you want to improve the quality of the site, lead by example and write something worthy of serious discussion.

[FreddieNDB]

I agree with BreathDragon, that the member's T1 forum along with the others has been crap especially lately. The last time I actually looked into one of the threads was like 2 weeks ago... So I just went to Open were threads were forming rather rapidly ( this is a good and a bad thing) and actaully getting somewhere (A few quailty posts out of 100 in Open is better then 3 posts that really don't go anywhere in the Member's T1 forum).

I think what a lot of people are trying to do is just get full membership (which what I was doing about a month ago until I realised that the open t1 forum was actually BETTER than the Member's Forum because there were actaul debates going on in there). I think that stopping the ability to recieve full membership will greatly boost the quality of the posts in the Open forum as those little guys wanting their big "e-penis's" will stop posting bullshit, or stop just reguritating what has already been said to look good.

[jpmeyer]

Like I said, a lot of the reason that there just hadn't been stuff in the closed forum is because what usually happened is that someone would see that thread, but since they couldn't post on it, they would make an identical thread in the open forum.  So basically, we just consolidated everything.

That said, I'd like more closed forum topics because it would keep the discussion level on them generally high and there wouldn't be any "cut Food Chain from Food Chain Goblins" comments.

[xrizzo]

An assertion like this would be better with examples. I hardly see anything I would call a weak thread, let alone worse than the open-registration forums.

Just to recap, I said:

In general, I would support a forum which contains a fewer number of threads like the T1 forum, but with higher quality posts.

This leaves room for solid collaboration and discussion as we have in the T1 forum.  The problem is that the forum only gets a post a day.  

Right now, there are three active threads:
One with the most recent post Thursday, and two with the most recent post Wednesday.  The next two threads are one and two weeks old already.  This is hardly inspiring.  If you don't prefer to categorize the threads as 'weak,' you could certainly classify some as 'dead' and many more as 'abandoned.'

I am not advocating massive posting without good thought - but rather pointing out that this site in general has taken a dive downhill.  Eastman was right a few months ago to theorize the possibility of team secrecy as the problem.  

As far as providing evidence, you can just read the forums or look at the post dates in the T1 forum to see what I am referring to.  All the forums need some work - but the 'Open' forum seems to be the best overall forum for innovation, discussion, etc.  I would like to see the T1 forum again become the flagship forum of this site so I can go and read insightful commentary and meaningful analysis without wading through unpowered Tog lists and infinite Keeper variants.  (which was the original purpose of the forum)  The successful implementation of this hinges on the adepts and mods to put forth an effort to post in the forum and contribute on a daily basis.  I think that the attitude the T1 forum takes influences the tone in the other forums.  An improvement in the T1 forum will quickly improve the entire site.