[Discussion] Arguing against LOA inside Workshop Slavery

[Jhaggs]

Ever since Smmenen posted this thread: http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15814, I have been running the workshop slavery build.  After a playtesting the build I instantly threw in Library of Alexandria, thinking that it was a "no-brainer" addition.  After playing with this archtype for several weeks now, I am having second thoughts about LOA and for the moment have decided to drop it, opting instead for that 2nd Ancient Tomb.  I would like this thread to discuss the LOA option and overall mana base for the Team MeanDeck verison (no offense to the Atog Lord....but one slavery build at a time   ).

Toad in defending his inclusion of LOA writes:

 

The Library is insane in the deck because contrary to the other Prison decks, you can afford draw-go in early game, even against Aggro, while building your mana base. It also has a good synergy with the massive amount of draw the deck has. It's definitly better than Ancient Tomb most of the time.

And Shivan Reefs are cool because, contrary to Islands, provide Red for Welders. When you want to cast a really fast Blood Moon, you don't have time to fetch for a basic Island. And that basic Island doesn't produce the  you need for Blood Moon.

The second Ancient Tomb is not really needed as soon as you understand how to play each matchups.

Nevertheless, I'm still working a lot on the mana base, so the builds we all played in tournaments doesn't have the best mana base possible.

This seems to be a pretty logical basis to MD the Library of Alexandria.  The Workshop prison based decks are dependant on establishing its "combo-lock" (Wire/Sphere/Stack) seen in Stax or WMUD.  However since Mindslavery is essentially the prison itself it doesn't need to drop multiple permanents into play.  With only needing one card to establish your deck's main theme you can have the ability not to be reliant on that turn one Sphere.  He goes on to explain that the deck does have fantastic draw capablities which as we all know bodes well with LOA in the main deck.

These are two very solid reasons to run LOA but let me propose a counter argument to open up the debate.

In my testing I almost never use LOA's draw mechanic. Fundamentally, LOA is a given inside control decks because these typical blue-based decks tend to frequently draw cards in quantity and hold on to counters to control the board and/or protect their lone threat. With Slavery, although its a control deck (the ultimate prison), its control is shown through permanents not through cards in your hand. You can't draw from LOA if you rarely are holding 7 cards because you want to cast your permanents.  This deck dosen't want to hold its cards. This deck wants to play chalice for two Round 1. This deck wants to drop its moxes and welders early.  This deck wants to discard artifacts into the graveyard.  I just don't see LOA being effective inside a deck that wants to play permanents aggressively.  Althought this deck goes draw cards, it can play its cards just as fast.  It seems like there are several elements of the deck that are not synergistic with LOA.  Again, alothough the deck as a one card prison effect, it still wants to drop its cards in hand.

I strongly feel that ancient tomb or even an island is a much better option to make the workshop slavery a more consistant deck. Gilded lotus is an allstar in the deck (much to my suprise) and I'd much rather be able to hard cast this into play ASAP if i can't weld it. Here ancient tomb is a better fit than LOA.

If I can't play workshop on turn one, I'd rather increase my chances in playing Thirst for Knowledge on turn one by having an extra source of blue mana rather than an LOA.  I realize that this may sound counter-intuitive but I think a round 1 thirst is better than a round 1 drop of LOA.  The odds of having Thirst for knowledge in your opening hand are much much greater than drawing into your lone LOA, so why not try to maximize your chances in casting it early.

I will accknowledge that fact that I don't quite grasp Toad's comment when he writes:

The second Ancient Tomb is not really needed as soon as you understand how to play each matchups.

Perhaps dissenters from my opinion could elborate on his point for me.  Or if you agree with not including LOA let me know what your mana base looks like.

[Caelestis]

You can't draw from LOA if you rarely are holding 7 cards because you want to cast your permanents.... Again, alothough the deck as a one card prison effect, it still wants to drop its cards in hand.

What you want to do and what you can do are two completely different matters. Hulk wants to Intu-AK first with mana for Counter left, but it can't do that all the time. Simply put, LoA only does not work in certain situations in your gameplan, and with the amount of card drawing that is packed into Slavery, even though you may empty your hand extremely fast, you still have the ability to replenish your hand to LoA mode again with its comboish amount of Draw7s. Also, Slavery has its component of being Control as well, implied by Toad when he said that "...you can afford to draw-go in the early game...". You do not have to drop all your cards in hand, with the ridiculus amount of acceleration, you can drop him into a Slaver lock in just one turn with the proper build up, and LoA provides exactly that.

I strongly feel that ancient tomb or even an island is a much better option to make the workshop slavery a more consistant deck.... Here ancient tomb is a better fit than LOA.

Ancient Tomb allows you to drop some of your more vital spells faster, yes, but with draw you can find your way to accelerations that amounts to the same thing. Also, 2 Ancient Tombs' damage can rack up quite a bit, and Island is wholly unnecessary, as Toad said, it doesn't provide the red necessary for Welder.

If I can't play workshop on turn one...so why not try to maximize your chances in casting it early.

You don't always want a fast start like that, against Aggro, for example, taking your time to set up with LoA is simply amazing. LoA allows you to be even more multifaceted in your arsenal of threats as you can play the different roles. I don't see why you limit yourself to only one or two aspect of Slavery, its strength lies in its verstile nature in being able to shift roles when necessary, and seamlessly.

Perhaps dissenters from my opinion could elborate on his point for me. Or if you agree with not including LOA let me know what your mana base looks like.

I believe that he means what I tried to convey in the last paragraph, you need to be flexable with your playstyle. I dropped the Tomb for the LoA and never looked back personally.

[Jhaggs]

Caelestis,

   It's been a while since I have seen you on the net.  Good to see you back.

You do not have to drop all your cards in hand, with the ridiculus amount of acceleration, you can drop him into a Slaver lock in just one turn with the proper build up, and LoA provides exactly that.

Maybe its a difference in playstyle but I like to play what I have early and often with this deck.  There is alot of "hate" out there, regardless of your meta and I want to be able to hard cast my my creatures as soon as I can if i have too.  I really haven't tried to hold on to my cards for several rounds.  Perhaps that is why I have had a negative reaction to LOA.  The only thing I'll really hold on to is Thirst for an end of turn casting.  Other than that, I like to play what I have, draw into more, and play that as well.  With several of those high casting cost artifacts, that extra mana can be huge.

Also, 2 Ancient Tombs' damage can rack up quite a bit, and Island is wholly unnecessary, as Toad said, it doesn't provide the red necessary for Welder.

I really haven't had a problem with the tomb damage.  At times you need to watch your life total, espically against a honed aggro build which further illustrates my point of wanting even more acceleration to establish the slavery or cast a beat of my own.  I agree completely against adding the island.  Too random and unecessary, which is why i like the 2 tombs.

You don't always want a fast start like that, against Aggro, for example, taking your time to set up with LoA is simply amazing. LoA allows you to be even more multifaceted in your arsenal of threats as you can play the different roles. I don't see why you limit yourself to only one or two aspect of Slavery, its strength lies in its verstile nature in being able to shift roles when necessary, and seamlessly.

Again, I'll grant you this; I play this deck aggressively.  This maybe a serious error in judgement against certain decks, but I am happy with my results thus far.

[Ultima]

@ Jhaggs

I played Workshop Slavery for a while as well.  Its one of the best ways to discover how to beat it really.  

I totally have to agree that LOA seems pointless.  I have yet to use its draw ability once.  I view the workshop slavery as a combo deck, therefore I play it as such.  Combo doesn't sit around and draw, it wins NOW which means gettting slaver lock NOW.  I really cannot recall a time when I did not have the ability to accelerate my game and still keep a decent amount of cards in hand.  Slaver can dump its whole hand turn 1 and not even feel it then replenish with a draw7 and do it again.  LOA, I think has no place here.

@Celestis

I really have to disagree on the count that workshop slaver is a extremely versatile deck.  It seems very one-sided when I played it as being a combo deck.  And as such can be very inconsistent at times.  Plus I really cannot see the logic in playing draw-go in a metagame this fast.  It seems more realistic that if you don't play combo then you'll lose to hate like rod, maze, deed, or Tog.  I really cannot imagine any deck in T1 that can afford to play draw-go outside of Keeper which is at best a tier2.  The deck only has 4 counters that you cannot even hardcast when playing the LOA strategy.  If you want to play a more controlish game then Control Slaver is there and LOA is better in that but not here IMO.

[FireFall26]

I have sone some testing with the deck, and the hands I have had LOA you obviuously have to play around it.  When it gets active it is awesome, but you can't "unload" like you would normally, which slows down the combo feel of the deck.  But being able to use LOA usually means holding back threats, and I guess that is bad with the deck.

[Caelestis]

@Jhaggs

Yeah, I've been quite busy with schoolwork as of late. Not as much time as I used to have.

I really haven't had a problem with the tomb damage...I agree completely against adding the island. Too random and unecessary, which is why i like the 2 tombs.

I haven't died from it, but it did make me sweat some. One additional mana can go a long way to cast your beatstick or slave them, yes, but drawing additional cards can too when there are hate on the board. If you can stop the hate all the time, then you are free to go off, but you can't. In turn, the ability to shift to control as to dig for solutions is a plus imo.

@Jhaggs & Ultima

Maybe its a difference in playstyle but I like to play what I have early and often with this deck....With several of those high casting cost artifacts, that extra mana can be huge.

I really have to disagree on the count that workshop slaver is a extremely versatile deck....If you want to play a more controlish game then Control Slaver is there and LOA is better in that but not here IMO.

I am not advocating that you should always play Slavery like a Control deck, but I am speaking against piloting it only in a combo-ish manner. While the deck has the ability to go off easily, you can't maintain a long term lock all the time from that, and that would be fatal again decks that does not have a lose condition handy. As for hate, if they resolve it, your Combo route isn't going to help you (Tog is, well, Tog, you combo that). Better that you have the ability to net extra cards, the easier for you to draw into your beatsticks. Extra mana does not help you when you don't have the cards to play after they whipped a Deed out of blue which you can't stop. Drawing more cards does.

[Zw4liki]

I myself have never played slavery due to budget constraints, but I have played an astronomical amount of matches against it in tournaments (its being played by EVERYONE). In every single match, I have never seen the LoA used very well. First off, alot of decks are currently running 5 strip effects, making LoA a prime target. Obviously, this isn't really a sufficient argument against LoA, but it is a small piece of it. The first goal of slavery, or so I understand it to be, is to develop its extensive mana base. Ie, casting gilded lotus, moxen, accelerants, and then drawing 7 to do it again. In doing this, the deck rarely has a full hand. Furthermore, it likes discarding cards to weld in, welding out accelerants (ie, moxen). Thats 2 cards out of the hand already (card getting welded in, card getting welded out). Add to this the fact that it likes to pump out a fast chalice, and then consider that draw-go is a very suboptimal strategy these days (even for a turn or so), and I cannot see LoA fitting readily into slavery.

People refer to "All the drawing power" that slavery has. It is my understanding that this drawing power is all very cheap in order for the cards drawn off them to be cast in the same turn. It only runs 4 counters (I do think LoA belongs in the 4 mana drain versions of slavery, but I don't think thats the subject here), and therefore sitting back and drawing off LoA is not something the deck does...

Although I can't readily say what land to replace the LoA with given I have no experience actually playing the deck, from what I've seen Ancient Tomb is notsohot. I have won several games off decklists running multiple tombs, as the pressure from fast aggro decks makes them dangerous. Furthermore, in a deck with so much drawing capacity and mana acceleration, the extra 1 mana for 2 damage is not really necessary.

[Jhaggs]

As for hate, if they resolve it, your Combo route isn't going to help you (Tog is, well, Tog, you combo that). Better that you have the ability to net extra cards, the easier for you to draw into your beatsticks. Extra mana does not help you when you don't have the cards to play after they whipped a Deed out of blue which you can't stop. Drawing more cards does.

This is a fair point however I still do not feel that it can justify the inclusion of LOA.  The deck already has huge draw components.  9 spells that draw three cards, twister, fortune, fact or fiction, and tinker.  Do you really want that extra draw card or would you rather have access  to one more mana every round?  One extra mana which often times can be crucial.  In my playtesting, running the extra source of mana is warranted due to the decks mana curve and large volume of existing draw components.  Cutting mana resources for more draw seems to just slow the deck down.  (We might be getting into a circular argument here...)

Caelestis, have you made any changes to your mana base besides the LOA assuming you started with the Meandeck build?

[johnstown713]

It is a sad day when Library is cut from a deck and today is a sad day.  I don't think it really fits.  I have played and played against my fair share of slaver and it always seems to want to drop it stuff.  Both sides are putting up valid agruments but overall I think the tomb is just better.  The acceleration seems like it is worth the extra damage even though it can do a lot.  With tomb it is just another card to help get a lock faster.  I just don't see LoA in a slaver build.  I don't think it has the patience to be a stall deck an doing draw-go for the first couple of turns.

Johnstown713

[Jakedasnake]

I have to agree with Caelestis on this one.

LoA definitely has a place in this build, especially when you consider what the deck ultimately wants to do; slave the opponent multiple times. Like Toad mentioned, with an opening hand of LoA, you can just ignore every threat that's hitting you and draw cards, developing your mana base, maybe playing some disruption, etc, until you can 'just win' with the Slaver lock.

LoA basically gives you another gameplan that leads to victory, and it certainly goes a long way in the non Tog control matchup, making non explosive hands very appealing.

Workshop Slaver needs to constantly lay permanents that can be used in a proactive way, and, even with the burst that Brainstorm gives you, one often notices that the deck just runs out of steam. When this happens, using a draw7 with a LoA in play is basically game over;  you've got everything you need.

I wouldn't cut it for the small boost that Ancient Tomb gives in its place, especially when you already run 4 Workshops, 3 Gilded Lotus, 9 Moxen, etc. You just don't NEED the second Ancient Tomb as much as you need LoA.

[Smmenen]

I completely agree with Caelestis' (sp?) comments.  The deck is extremely multi-faceted.  I went through about half a dozen test games against Tog this past Tuesday before I actually played or used a Mindslaver - winning almost all of my games with Memnarch.  

Let me start of by saying that your arguments, Jhaggs, against Library seem to be:

1) you never used it to a draw a card

2) you'd rather play something else on turn one that is marginally better than a colorless mana source

I think to all the people who are against Library, you need to ask what the deck is doing.  This deck is nothing like the old Workshop prison decks.  Why?  Becuase this deck can be much slower.  The old Shop decks were more comboey becuase they just unloaded onto the board out of necessity.  The way that Mindlsaver works it means that you can activate that effect and have the same effect as what Stax was trying to do in the first place the space of one turn.  

Did you read my tournament report in the tournament forum?  Check out how alot of my games went that I won.  Its true that the deck does want to do something disgusting by a certain turn, but the fact is that you don't have to do it immediately.  The deck in my opinion succeeds because it is multifaceted.  That is how I beat Null Rod and other hate cards - I play the deck to suit each matchup.  

Getting back directly on point: you do not need to combo out immediately.  As a way to counter your first argument, here is how I use library.  If I drop a turn one library (something I LOVE to do - especially if I am drawing), I will generally only use it twice, and then do something ridiculous.  I probably draw with Library as much in the midgame as I do on turn 1-2.  Why?  Because I use Library alot after Twister, Wheel, and in recurring Jars.  

There are very few things that you have to do absolutely immediately (relating to your second point).  One of the few things that I think has a truly limited window of opprotunity is Chalice 2.  If you can't do a turn one or two Chalice for 2, you should forgo it for something else (which is why Brainstorm is so good in this deck).  If you are playing, you have a two turn window to play Chalice 2.  But if they get UU up, I'd say its almost too late unless you do it as a lure and follow up with something more broken.  

Library is not something you can rely on to win you games - becuase it is true that you must play the "beatdown (i.e. combo role)" in many matchups, but drawing a few cards before doing it is certainly worthwhile in my view and has proved to be time and again.  

How do I play this deck?  I feign like I am a control deck until I combo out on turn three or thereabouts - which can mean playing 3 draw 7s in one turn or going nuts with Slaver or Memnarch.

Steve

[Wollblad]

I might elaborate a bit on my comment on the mana base that I made on The Type 1 Forum. Blood Moon played at the wrong time really hurts this deck. I would never believe that someone would ever play Blood Moon against me, but it have happened. If at that oscession, I don't have a Guilded Lotus in play (or blue Mox) I cannot produce blue mana and the drawspells will just pile up doing no good at all. I can have all red mana I want, but I cannot use my drawspells to find my Welders. Also, I often have time to find an Island before I cast my own Blood Moon. Crippling the opponent and still having blue mana myself is gold. Now this is perhaps not argument enough to include Islands instead of LoA, but I have also found it of great value to be able to drop first turn basic land for Brainstorm knowing it cannot get Wasted. Last, basic Islands will relieve the effect Back to Basic which is very common around here.

These are my arguments to use basic lands in this deck. It is not that LoA is bad card, I just value the extra stablilty from basic lands more than the extra brokeness given by LoA. Just to include an Island or two won't help much, but combined with fetch lands it becomes reasonably stable (I'm still tinkering with the exact proportions) and then I just cannot fit in LoA. Sadly I couldn't find room for a second Tomb either.

[Toad]

I don't have many things to add to Caelestis replies, because they are perfect ones.

As I said in the Type One forum, LoA is strong as soon as you understand how to play each matchups. A lot of players consider the Workshop Slaver (which I'd call Slavery from now on) as a Combo deck, in opposition with the Mana Drain build, which is said to be the controlish one. If you play Slavery as a Combo deck, LoA is obviously a weak card, because you tend to unload your hand on turn 1. Nevertheless, there are plenty matchups where taking the Combo route is useless.

Simple example: Oshawa Stompy. I'm assuming they don't use Null Rod in this example, because that can change the deal. In this matchup, you have, say, 4 turns befor they can kill you if you do nothing (no Mindslaver or no critter). That means you have a 4-turns window to set up your deck, using your life as a time buffer that will decrease through their attacks. In that situation, LoA is cool, because instead of dropping Moxens that you would not use for serious things, you can simply drop a LoA and draw 1 or 2 cards before doing something relevant. What's the point in Comboing Oshawa Stompy on turn 2 or 3 if all they have on the board is 2 Forests and a Rootwalla? In plenty matchups, you don't want to use Mindslaver before turn 3 or 4. I'd even say that there are some matchups where you don't want to see Mindslaver at all.

Slavery is a blue based Control deck, and I don't see why LoA would be bad in a blue based Control deck. If you always dislike drawing LoA, then that means you are playing Slavery as a Combo deck, which It is not in plenty matchups.

[Jhaggs]

Smmenen,

   Thanks for the response.  If both you and Caelestis strongly advocate LOA, I'll reconsider it and try it again.  However, I would like to make another rebuttal to continue this discussion so that I may have more clarity on this issue.

I think to all the people who are against Library, you need to ask what the deck is doing. This deck is nothing like the old Workshop prison decks. Why? Becuase this deck can be much slower. The old Shop decks were more comboey becuase they just unloaded onto the board out of necessity. The way that Mindlsaver works it means that you can activate that effect and have the same effect as what Stax was trying to do in the first place the space of one turn.



Did you read my tournament report in the tournament forum? Check out how alot of my games went that I won. Its true that the deck does want to do something disgusting by a certain turn, but the fact is that you don't have to do it immediately. The deck in my opinion succeeds because it is multifaceted. That is how I beat Null Rod and other hate cards - I play the deck to suit each matchup.

While it is true that this deck can operate slower than the traditional WMUD due to Mindslaver having the capacity to be a one card lock, I still fail to see the logic behind playing things slower.  Through my testing I have always treated this build as a combo deck with a FOW backup so I try to play it fast and hard.  When posed with the question of, "What is this deck doing", I have to answer it by saying that I want to drop what I have and just win.  If I am faced with hate (Null Rod) I can switch gears and go the beatdown route.  In all cases I never hold back cards in my hand that I could play now.  Dropping Chalice for two, getting Gilded Lotus online, or getting a creature into play all require a player to want to have accelerators into play when they can be played.  This style of play goes against the synergy needed to effectively draw with the Library.

I'll be the first  to admit that I do play this deck like WMUD whenever I can because I feel this is the most advantagous route into establishing my gameplan.  Although this build can function slower than your typical artifact lock decks, it dosen't necessarliy mean that it should.  Why promote a secondary avenue through another draw effect when it causes you to detract from your primary avenue which is to getting your resources into play?

I did read your recent tournament report.  I went over it again (I hope this was the one you were referring to):

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=16145

Let me just state that I realize that I am commenting on your games which can be extremely unfair considering I am only viewing the matches through a "small camera lens".

Your report seems to reflect what I have been arguing, that this deck when it can, should explode right out of the gate.  In your first match you dropped multiple perms to get Chalice online while you positioned yourself to cast another high casting cost permanent (Jar) for the next round.  The second game (brief describtion) involved yet another high casting cost permanent (Memnarch) that sealed the deal.  

Your second match showed you went nuclear immediately in the first two games.  In the third game, maybe Library would have played a role if you had drew into it.  However, you did drop an early blood moon which would have negated LOA's ability and tomb's ability.  

Your third match was pretty insane.  All those chalices in play...crazy.  The library would have been good here espically after the twister but you still won without it.

Your fourth match benifited by getting Gilded Lotus in play round two.  Something that workshop and LOA couldn't do but shop and tomb could.  Your early lotus resulted in chalice for 2.  Unfortunatly he combo-ed out soon after.  Would an early Library have helped in this situation?  The next two games involved you resolving blood moons that enabled you to win.  It would seem to me that tombs could enable a faster casting of blood moon than an early LOA.  Would you rather have had the extra drawn card in these matches?

Your 5th match was pretty sweet.  Awesome SB strategy against uber hate!  However in game one you dropped perms off the Wheel and played permanents when you could have.  Perhaps LAO would have been a factor early but your opponent would have wasted it instead of the tomb.  Game two LOA would have played a huge role with the recurring Jars if you had seen it.


I'm not trying to be a dick by nitpicking through your report or through your evaluation of LOA in this deck.  What I am trying to do is find out situations where LOA would have benifited you further in your matches.  In almost all of your matches it appears that you exploded when you could, espically in the beginning, thus making LOA's benifit moot.  

Getting back directly on point: you do not need to combo out immediately. As a way to counter your first argument, here is how I use library. If I drop a turn one library (something I LOVE to do - especially if I am drawing), I will generally only use it twice, and then do something ridiculous. I probably draw with Library as much in the midgame as I do on turn 1-2. Why? Because I use Library alot after Twister, Wheel, and in recurring Jars.

I see the benifit in having LOA with twister, wheel, and Jar but couldn't you make the argument that the extra mana is just better to have in these situations because you're going to draw into other draw effects and I almost always play multiple spells after these huge draw effects which require the allocation of a high number of mana sources.

Library is not something you can rely on to win you games - becuase it is true that you must play the "beatdown (i.e. combo role)" in many matchups, but drawing a few cards before doing it is certainly worthwhile in my view and has proved to be time and again.

This is perhaps the central point of the debate.  I feel that you can play the beatdown role or combo role sooner with an extra accelerator instead of an extra draw mechanic.  To me, the extra draw effect isn't as needed as much as the two extra mana that a tapped tomb will provide over a tapped LOA for draw.  This build already has a huge draw engine but it does need that mana to balance out its high mana curve.

As I mentioned early, I'll run the LOA again and re-evaluate my current position.  BUt I do feel that some of the arguments made against LOA are valid.

EDIT:  I wrote this before I had a chance to read Toad's response.  I will take the O-stompy example into consideration as well.  Thanks for the match-up example.  I'll try to find simillar builds for my re-testing.

[Caelestis]

@Smmenen

One question, how exactly do you play the Tog matchup? Usually, my opponents rush into a Tog, and I race to enslave them. How would you do it any other way? Granted, Chalice for 2 is brutal, but it isn't quite enough in my opinion to let Memnarch clean up like that.

@Wollblad

The sideboard is meant to give you even more flexibility, I'd think. The Blood Moon slot can easily be REB if B2B is common is common in your area. Save some vital creatures, you have quite many options of what to fill your SB with. I don't believe that a MD Island, or two even, will help to counteract the power of B2B. Direct solutions are much more desirable.

@Jhaggs

While it is true that this deck can operate slower than the traditional WMUD due to Mindslaver having the capacity to be a one card lock, I still fail to see the logic behind playing things slower.... This style of play goes against the synergy needed to effectively draw with the Library.

I can only reiterate what Toad said, specific matchups has specific ways of playing against it. Let's take Hulk for example, while its primary aim is to Zerk that Tog, it is capable of playing Control fully well, because it is sometimes necessary. The same applies for Slavery, and all these decks with a multitude of threats in design.

I'll be the first to admit that I do play this deck like WMUD...Why promote a secondary avenue through another draw effect when it causes you to detract from your primary avenue which is to getting your resources into play?

Jhaggs, I thought you read carefully, Smmenen already covered this.

The old Shop decks were more comboey becuase they just unloaded onto the board out of necessity. The way that Mindlsaver works it means that you can activate that effect and have the same effect as what Stax was trying to do in the first place the space of one turn.

It is not your 'primary avenue', in a deck as equivocal as Workshop Slaver, all options are equally attractive. You merely shift between them as situation arises. This has been the point all along, there is absolutely no point in concentrating on just one venue of winning. Rather, as the Chinese has observed in the past, flow like the water, and conform. To brute force one method across is senseless, and merely makes you vulnerable.

What I am trying to do is find out situations where LOA would have benifited you further in your matches. In almost all of your matches it appears that you exploded when you could, espically in the beginning, thus making LOA's benifit moot.

Regarding the report, Smmenen's hands were consisted of bombs, when you can outbroken them, why not? Again, I am not saying that comboing out with the deck is bad, merely that you have to take the opportunity to do it at the right time. Thus, to be able to feign as other decks (if only in drawing and buying time), an ability given by LoA, adds additional stability in the deck. For a deck that wants to combo out, the additional cards will matter more than one mana, with this many acceleration, you can almost be guaranteed to make up for that one mana difference, and more. Also, in my personal experience, I found LoA improved on the mulliganing of the deck as much as the 4x Brainstorms has done combined, it just generates so much card advantage.

This is perhaps the central point of the debate....This build already has a huge draw engine but it does need that mana to balance out its high mana curve.

Jake already said it best...

I wouldn't cut it for the small boost that Ancient Tomb gives in its place, especially when you already run 4 Workshops, 3 Gilded Lotus, 9 Moxen, etc. You just don't NEED the second Ancient Tomb as much as you need LoA.

Additional Ancient Tomb appears overkill, and can indeed be.

[Jhaggs]

Caelestis,

   Seriously....great to see you back on the boards.  PM me for some matches

Let me just reiterate some points that I made early by responding to some of your remarks.  You write:

This has been the point all along, there is absolutely no point in concentrating on just one venue of winning. Rather, as the Chinese has observed in the past, flow like the water, and conform. To brute force one method across is senseless, and merely makes you vulnerable.

This sounds like a Bruce Lee quote.  I've learned a couple of things from chinese philosophy thru taking Kung Fu 3 days a week.  Here are some thoughts from Bruce about the essence of water:

You are water. You're not really organic; you're neither acidic nor basic, yet you're an acid and a base at the same time. You're strong
willed and opinionated, but relaxed and ready to flow. So while you often seem worthless, without you, everything would just not work.
People should definitely drink more of you every day.

Be like water making its way through cracks. Do not be assertive, but adjust to the object, and you shall find a way round or through it. If nothing within you stays rigid, outward things will disclose themselves.
Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle and it becomes the bottle. You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water my friend.

Apologies to the forum for the sidebar but I feel it does have some relevance to this thread.  Your water anology mirrors that for a deck like Keeper.  Keeper's entire premise is to control the game by overcoming the obstacles that its opponent may resolve and then progress to victory with its lone threat.  I feel that workshop Slavery is not designed to play a match like a keeper deck would.  On a fundamental level, it tries to get its combo online whenever it can.  If it can't it switches to aggro.  Opting to choose LOA over tomb is a misassignment of role for this card slot.  The Atog Lord's slavery design can effective play the control role much better than this slavery build.  This opinion stems from my bias that favors Mana Drain over Chalice.  Hence, control slavery should play LOA where as workshop slavery should maximize its mana slots for more mana.

I think that a slavery build that features 4 workshops on a fundamental level declares that it does have a primary goal.  It is designed to go explosive as soon as it can because it packs heavy draw and heavy resources to cast its permanents that it needs to resolve in order to win.  If anything workshop slavery is much more like a "tiger" form instead of a "mantis" form.  When engaged with confrontation, exploit your strenths.  It specifically chooses workshops and Gilded Lotus to bully its way toawrds a win whether aggro or combo.  It really shouldn't play the control route unless it is glaringly obvious.  But these "slower" situations are seldom.  Tog can play the control route if it has to because it can.  Workshop slavery just does not reserve enough MD slots for control to accomplish this.  With almost every match I ahve seen I would much rather have tomb in play whenver I had LOA.

It is not your 'primary avenue', in a deck as equivocal as Workshop Slaver, all options are equally attractive. You merely shift between them as situation arises. This has been the point all along, there is absolutely no point in concentrating on just one venue of winning. Rather, as the Chinese has observed in the past, flow like the water, and conform. To brute force one method across is senseless, and merely makes you vulnerable.

Again, this is where the disagreement lies.  I haven't viewd workshop slavery as having "equivocal" roles.  Its mana base packs workshops.  Its primary goal is to cast heavy perms asap.  

Toad pointed to a great example of a matchup that perhaps I should explore further: Oshawa Stompy.  I'll try this matchup again long with madness and maybe TnT.  I'll try to refrain from further comments until I've run enough matches with a LOA in the MD.

[Caelestis]

@Jhaggs

You still have my AIM, don't you?

However, I am only back because of the vacation, need some kind of a diversion from schoolwork. Once vacation ends, I am going to be cramming my head full of stupid stuff that I don't care about...bah

This sounds like a Bruce Lee quote. I've learned a couple of things from chinese philosophy thru taking Kung Fu 3 days a week. Here are some thoughts from Bruce about the essence of water:

Actually, it is my rough translation of Sun Tzu's Art of War (or however one spells it, I can't romanize Chinese for life)   A pretty pathetic attempt

Apologies to the forum for the sidebar but I feel it does have some relevance to this thread....Hence, control slavery should play LOA where as workshop slavery should maximize its mana slots for more mana.

You are contradicting your own quotes here  :lol:

Be like water making its way through cracks. Do not be assertive, but adjust to the object, and you shall find a way round or through it

In focusing on playing it like traditional workshop - perms ahoy, you force the deck to take shape in its strategy early on, when you are not sure whether it might be the best way to counter them. This isn't like Keeper, where your overall strategy is going to be control. Granted, years back you can drop a suicide Morphling and just plain win from there, but that is as far as Keeper had been to be able to play different roles. Rather, Keeper shifts its reactionary strategies according to the opponent through the use of tutoring and answers. Workshop changes its whole deck virtually, from Combo to Aggro, or whatnot, instead of sifting through the deck for a different answer, you play the deck in a wholly different manner as your solution.

Now, considering the Combo does not always work -especially apparent against Aggro- it is necessary for Slavery to change roles, we all agree on that. However, how long do you have? The true misassignment of role here lies in the fact you are not playing the deck like Combo. As Smmenen had said earlier, or someone else, you are using your life as a buffer in order to buy time to go off. At that point, dropping perms isn't your main concern, drawing cards to combo off is. In essence, LoA (and Brainstorm) here is like Brainstorm in (the now defunct) Long, to give you that slight increase in digging depth in order to go off. In turn, if anything, LoA enhances the combo aspect of the deck. It does not hurt the aggro either, as you don't have a handful of creature to drop all the time. All the role that Ancient Tomb fufills is to decrease your buffer, -giving you less time to go off- in exchange of being able to drop something one turn earlier, something that moxens can do also when you draw into them with LoA.

Granted, you are never fully playing Control, at least not to the point of Control Slaver, but you can still take advantage of card advantage as ridiculus as LoA, especially when it helps you fulfill the other two roles that the deck has a greater emphasis on.

I think that a slavery build that features 4 workshops on a fundamental level declares that it does have a primary goal....With almost every match I ahve seen I would much rather have tomb in play whenver I had LOA.

As I have said in the last paragraph in the previous point, you are never fufilling what is exactly a control role. You are coming close to it in possible Draw-Going, and using dig cards to find solution, but not in the traditional control sense as one would have it. Smmenen said it already: "Library is not something you can rely on to win you games". It merely helps you along to play other roles better, since the deck can afford the tempo loss due to its ultra explosive basis.

I personally think your main qualm about Slavery lies in your playstyle, you try too hard to play actual control, when the best way to tackle the situation, as Smmenen said, is to feign like a control deck until opportunity arises.

Again, this is where the disagreement lies. I haven't viewd workshop slavery as having "equivocal" roles. Its mana base packs workshops. Its primary goal is to cast heavy perms asap.

To use a stupid physics analogy, in order to increase the kinetic energy of an object, you first would have to increase its potential energy. If you want to swing at some person, you give your fist some additional space first to increase the speed, as you can only push acceleration so much before distance becomes the limiting factor, physically speaking. LoA is like the distance that you use to increase the potential energy, and therefore the kinetic energy when you release the object.

[Jakedasnake]

Wow, the quality in this thread is awesome.

I'm just going to back up Caelestis here, because I believe he has hit every point right on the head.

In focusing on playing it like traditional workshop - perms ahoy, you force the deck to take shape in its strategy early on, when you are not sure whether it might be the best way to counter them. This isn't like Keeper, where your overall strategy is going to be control. Granted, years back you can drop a suicide Morphling and just plain win from there, but that is as far as Keeper had been to be able to play different roles.

I think you're missing a key point about Mindslaver in general, and that is you don't NEED to 'slave them until the actual control of their turn will really affect them negatively. Workshop Slaver has the luxury of busting out an early slavery against 'Tog, for example, but why slaver early against Big O? There is simply no need. Instead, drawing a couple of extra cards while they build up there side of the board, making them weaker to a Slaver, means you have a better chance of actually causing some real damage once you've got a slaver lock.

All the role that Ancient Tomb fufills is to decrease your buffer, -giving you less time to go off- in exchange of being able to drop something one turn earlier, something that moxens can do also when you draw into them with LoA.

But why do you need Ancient Tomb? Look at the acceleration 'Slaver runs:
5 Moxen, Sol Ring, Black Lotus, Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, 4 Workshop, 3 Gilded Lotus, 1 Ancient Tomb. That's 17 cards that do more than a land drop would. 17. Chances are, and I hate to use percentages, that you'll draw 2 of these every time, and often 3. Adding an additional Ancient Tomb doesn't really affect this percentage. However, the versatility that LoA adds is invaluable.

[Smmenen]

I think the last paragraph said it more succinctly than anything yet so far.  

Steve

[Jhaggs]

Great posts by everyone!  This thread has really helped me out a lot in exploring the different avenues this build can be played.  How ironic is it that a debate over one card slot could evolve into an entire deck theory.  Crazy.

I'll be MD LOA again in my upcoming matches and try to instill some of the ideas in presented in this thread.  However, I still reserve some skepticism as I feel Tomb helps the deck out in more situations than LOA...but I'll give it another go.

I've pretty much exhausted everything I wanted to say about Tomb vs. LOA.  If anyone else wants to chime in feel free.  I would like to see if we could switch gears and further investigate another mana base question that I have been pondering but have yet to try out:

What is the logic in MD fetchlands over Shivan Reefs?  I have seen several people throw in 2 or 3  fetches by lowering the count of Shivans.  Are the fetchlands used merely as way to thin the deck out?  It would seem that fetchlands would really only be grabbing a land that the reefs could just produce anyways.  Are the fetches just used to improve draw?

[Alfred]

oh pls

[Wollblad]

You can read my motivation for fetchlands a bit higher in this thread. If it is not for running basic Islands I do not see any reasons to run fetch lands. It can be explained in the following way: In my experience this deck has a hard time winning against something including Null Rods. Decks including Null Rod usually run Waste and Strip. Typical Examples are Fish and O. Stompy. Slavery usually uses it's first turns to expend it's mana base (and play Chalice if they can), then on turn three or so you play broken things and win the match. Now if Null Rod hits the table on turn one or two you will be confined to use your lands only, which might be hard if they got wasted now and then. Here is the weakness with fetch lands. Every time you fetch, you pull a land out of your deck. In matchups like those above you need to pull more lands than they pull LD, using fetches decrease those chances. Specially if it's after sideboard, you really want that colored mana to get rid of the Null Rod.

You can allways argue that you can play Brainstorm first and then play a fetch land, but then you have to have a blue mana source already or play two non-workshop lands in a sequence which you don't want to do. So Brainstorm -> fetch is only a good play after a draw seven, but then you will already have resources enough not to need shuffling after Brainstorm. One must also take in acount that fetch lands are targets for Stifle which will probably cost you too much tempo.

Bottom line: Don't run fetch lands unless your meta game calls for basic Islands.

[thecapn]

I see the Fetchland debate as being a bit more complex than "Island or no?" - in my mind it basically comes down to what you fear most. If you're afraid of taking a lot of damage, which Kevin Cron (CHA1N5) found to be a problem for earlier builds of the deck, then you run 2 fetchlands.  Fetchlands obviously have the added bonus of comboing with Brainstorm.  It's also worth noting that the damage issue was a supporting argument for running Libary over the 2nd Ancient Tomb.  If you're afraid of Stifle, and the Wastelands that usually accompany them, then you run the full compliment of Shivan Reefs.  I personally see it as more of a metagame call - in CT I expected lots of O. Stompy so I thought fetches were a good choice - fast beats and no Stifle.  If I expected Landstill and Fish or Keeper with Stifle then I'd run the Reefs without a doubt.
- Jason