Article: Stealing Turns and Perms with Slavery in Type One

[Machinus]

It really isn't just for killing welders, although that is one of the main reasons for it being here. Opposing welders are just like any other permanent on the other side of the board, really dangerous unless you already have the lock. Getting a Trike in play will remove his welders or discourage him from playing them. You can put out his welders when you have the lock and you are drawing his deck, and use them against him. If you are only going to run 3 slavers then you cannot justify cutting other cards because slaver would be better in that situation. There are times when you will just draw Trike and want to use it right away. It is active the instant it comes into play and can be recurred for infinite damage - don't forget that it is an efficient win condition as well as removal. It makes the deck more versatile as well, allowing someone to have many more options for a diverse or uncertain metagame. While cleary going infinite with slaver is going to happen a lot more often with two Pentavus, be wary of specialization at the cost of vulnerability. You cannot simply focus on speeding up your game plan if you aren't going to often win in the first two turns like draw7. For a deck like this, you have to protect your game plan as well, in particular, protect your artifacts. FoW is the most obvious component of this strategy, but Trike helps in that role while swinging and blocking for four and shooting for three.

[Smmenen]

I really don't unerstand the logic that i'm hearing for this arguement.  If your opponent gets the first welder, what makes you all so sure you'll resolve or have a mindslaver at all.  Moreoever, there is a near inevitable situation that your opponent will using his welder to screw up your manabase.  The player with the first welder to resolve is the player to most likely get to the slaver lock first, not vice versa.  One of the main reasons that control slaver beats workshop slaver is because they pack MD removal for opposing welders.

You overestimate the ability of a Welder to disrupt the opponent and underestimate the risk that your welder will be the source of your demise.

Steve

[jazzykat]

WRT: The "MANA DRAIN" vs "WORKSHOP" slaver matchup.

I think that having a way to toast an opposing welder is huge. I understand that the WS version is really fast, but I think it is a bit optimistic to get 10 mana up (all the time...although with work shops, gilded lotus and all the other fast mana in the deck it is certainly quite possible to do it on your second turn and if control slaver went second then you certainly would have the edge) before the Mana Drain deck has 2 blue up (I am not really accounting for FOW since both decks play them). Furthermore allowing a slaver player to have an active welder in play reduces the pseudo cc of mindslaver by 3 because you can thirst one into the graveyard. Since thirsting can be done in opponents endstep, and the activation on your turn, so you only really need 4 mana up, and an active welder on your slaving turn.

I just wanted to point out the obvious here and maybe with more playtesting I would feel more comfortable about no welder removal but the idea of not being able to kill opposing welders is disconcerting to me.

Also while WS slaver is not much like other aggroish/prison decks that play welders, when I have tested against tubbies, stackeresque and WMUD using Control slaver(I know this is the MD slaver thread but, the important thing is having opposing welder removal) and they either didn't have any or had to find trike and get him into play I usually kicked their butts. That may be because those decks are inferior to slaver in general but I think it has more to do with who can keep a welder active.

Just my observations and two cents.

[Ultima]

Maybe, but you only need 5 mana for a welder and slave, while slaving using your opponent's welder costs 10 assuming its gonna resolve that is.  Getting a trike and keeping opposing welders off the table which is a much more secure strategy costs 6.  I'd go with the faster play.

[Smmenen]

What would you say if I said that the correct play for mirror matches is to SB out Welders?  Would that demonstrate how risky Welders are?

Steve

[Smash]

What would you say if I said that the correct play for mirror matches is to SB out Welders?  Would that demonstrate how risky Welders are?

Steve

So you give up all hopes of infinite welds unless they have an active welder?

[Smmenen]

I would bring in Trikes and Angels and go for the beatdown plan and periodically slave.  At the same time, if they kept in Welders, then you can use their Welder to keep the slave going.  

The risk of them slaving you and then just winning becuase you played a Welder is too high to justify keeping them in.

Steve

[Ultima]

I would say ok. I believe you.  Its clear that you have tested the mirror more.  I'm just going on a more limited experience and logic.  

But doesn't siding in more fat guys and dropping welders raise your mana curve to such a degree that your opponent is now inherently faster with his welders.  And if you resolved a trike, are you saying that you wouldn't shoot your opponent's active welder, but let it live?

[theorigamist]

And if you resolved a trike, are you saying that you wouldn't shoot your opponent's active welder, but let it live?

Ultima, if that were the case, the rest of the board position would matter.  If you could activate a Slaver the same turn as you play the Trike, then let the Welder live long enough to make use of it.  Otherwise, shoot the Welder.

[Ultima]

I understand what Smmenen is saying.  The only thing that puts doubt in my mind is that it just feels like the slaver player with welders would be the player to achieve slavelock first and therefore not allow the other to drop trikes and beaters, because one can still circumvent the cc while the other is now hardcasting everything.  Not to mention the possiblity of opposing welders hurting the manabase.

But hey maybe, i'm just being too pesimistic.

[kirdape3]

You guys are forgetting that most often the deck works not by infinite Mindslavers, but by playing as a control deck with Pentavus as a kill that has the ability to randomly take extra turns on you.  I think I've seen an infinite lock one time with either Slaver build (out of three days of continuous testing to prep for Columbus).  It just isn't as good as winning the game outright is.

As for Welders to bring back something ridiculous, you simply won't need to since you produce mana so fast.  You'll often have Pentavus/Platinum Angel/MEMNARCH turn 3.  The best card in the mirror is Smemnarch, btw, since it is both legendary and it allows you to crush their development.

[The Hamburgler]

I am not just disagreeing for the sake of "defying the paragon" because you are obviously a better player than I, and I am acknowledging that. However, I am finding that four Chalice of the Void is great in a heavy control environment, but it is only non-abusive to Slaver when set at two, where you obviously stated only axes Time Walk. When drawing into multiple Chalice of the Void I find myself laying them down for zero as Welder food, so essentially when a Chalice of the Void for two is out, running or playing any other Chalice of the Void is redundant and pointless.

-1 Chalice of the Void

Brainstorm is a solid search effect, but only has one point in the deck. Getting the broken out early, or setting it up for the next turn. IF this is the reasoning for Brainstorm then why is four so necessary? In at least one of every three games I find myself with multiple Brainstorm in hand that search for one more card than the last. As Kerz would say," NO NEED".

-1 Brainstorm

This is more of a metagame decision, but I find running two main deck Gorilla Shaman to be quite potent in the deck. It provides at least some hate for opposing Slaver besides as Kirdape said Smemnarch. I will be piloting this at Waterbury, and will reveal more testing after.

+2 Gorilla Shaman MD

As you said," Most of the testing was based around three colored Tog". I found this stunning and irrational. Three colored Tog (U/B/R and the slightly more hateful U/B/R with Shaman) I found is a fair match up for the deck, and when prepared with a steady sideboard is a fine one. Just last night I played against Mike Smalls (Firefall26) and Aaron Kerzner both with three and four colored Tog, emitting not horrible results at all. In the end me and Kerz lost to Mana Crypt ALL THREE games , and I had a winning record in the play testing with Mike. Once again, I understand you are a better player than I, and would like some reasoning on why so much exclusive testing was based on this, besides the " Axel Metagaming" idea (which I vaguely disagree with).
- The Hamburgler

[Rico Suave]

Any deck that runs Chalice of the Void, especially a Workshop deck, needs all 4 Chalices.  It is a game-winning card, quite simply, and the reasons to cut it do not outweigh the games where Chalice will single-handedly win games for you.

[nataz]

Hello,

I've been playing workshop slaver for a few weeks now and I am thinking of taking it to a tourney this weekend. To my knowledge, this is the first Mox tourney ever held in this area, and therefore I expect a lot of "random" decks from people who are not all that familiar with type one, but at the same time are very talented magic players.

Working on the assumption that this deck is (of course) not perfect, and has holes in its game plan (I'm scared of really fast aggro w/ lots of artifact hate e.g. metagamed goblin decks, and o-stompy variants).

I want to be able to run more flexibility in the main and as the primer mentioned I am currently testing the Fact or Fiction and Time walk slots with 2 cunning wish. I have added to the SB +1 fire/ice (welders, random aggro, utility creatures) +1 Fact or Fiction and +1 chain of vapor (random permanent problems e.g. null rod game one) and have taken out -3 Trinispheres ( I almost never see draw 7 rector up here, and if i do at least I have main deck chalice riiiiiight ??)

I chose fact or fiction and time walk because;
a) I side out both very often (the walk almost all the time)
b) The fact or fiction is still wishable, and I already have very good draw
c) I almost never Timewalk game one anyways, I love to chalice for two

I really like the idea of having access to cunning wish -> answer, and still having the 4 chalice main.

So, I would like people's opinion on the following

1) Does my SB have enough wish targets to make cunning wish a viable spell?

2) Although I know Steve mentioned it in his article, is it really smart to knock out the FoF and Timewalk for wishes in the first place? I’m not huge on the walk, but the FoF is usually golden. On the other hand getting enough mana early game for wish + answer sometimes is troublesome.

3) If I am so worried about flexibility and cunning wish, should I just be playing control slaver with a more aggro then normal plan (see thecaptain's list on the Control Slaver thread)?

*edit*
for reference I am running the same decklist plus listed changes as in Steve's last tourny report.

[Smmenen]

If you are scared of Aggro run Trike over Windfall in the main (or Duplicant), but I'd go with Trike - or a second Pentavus.

Steve

[thecapn]

If you're going to cut anything for Cunning Wish then Time Walk and Fact or Fiction are the correct cards.  However, I tested this a bit before the CT Dual Lotus tournament and felt like I'd rather win than Wish for an answer.  The deck is robust enough that you can generally ignore any threats in favor of your own, especially with the advent of The Man Plan™.  If you're afraid of aggro then slowing your deck down with Cunning Wish doesn't seem like the best solution.  

In regards to Control or Drain Slaver vs Workshop Slaver, this is more of a personal preference.  Control and Drain Slaver have subtle differences, and Mana Drain based Slaver decks play much differently than Workshop Slaver decks do.  I see it as mostly a personal choice based on play style with some slight differences in matchups.  Both decks can win the tournament if played correctly.  Keep in mind, though, that Mana Drain based Slaver has difficulty against random decks and it's weakness tends to be aggro, whereas Workshop Slaver is much better poised to ignore aggro.

[Smmenen]

Workshop slaver has a huge edge over drain slaver against Combo too.

Steve

[TutoreIlluminato]

Workshop slaver has a huge edge over drain slaver against Combo too.

Steve

You're right: Chalice of the Void and the raw mana explosion of the Workshop let you plan a really different strategy than the Control Slavery.
You can go "aggro" with Chalice for 1, Welders and Mindslaver, while the Drain version tend to leave UU open in the opponent's turn, playing like a classic control deck until a Thirst+Welder or a drained Mindslaver turn it into a combo

[cssamerican]

Steve, what are your feelings about Duplicant in the deck? I noticed you put very little emphasis on this card in your article, and I was wondering if you just felt that it was uneeded.

And after reading this thread I want to say that I think a lot people forget that getting ten mana is very easy for this deck. So that means opponents Welders are your Welders!

[Suckamouf37]

Did you guys ever test Time Spiral?  I've goldfished with it a few times and its at least worthy of some testing.

I think any roles Duplicant would play are probably filled by Memnarch.

[kirdape3]

Time Spiral costs 6 non-Workshop mana, plus isn't liable to be a 'free' spell since you're going to have to pay for it via Gilded Lotus and Moxen.  Six mana for a draw-7 isn't that good when you've got good ones already.

As for Duplicant, it can form an infinite lock with a Welder against decks with creatures.  Memnarch just annexs their creatures, but it costs mana to do it.

[Smmenen]

Steve, what are your feelings about Duplicant in the deck? I noticed you put very little emphasis on this card in your article, and I was wondering if you just felt that it was uneeded.

And after reading this thread I want to say that I think a lot people forget that getting ten mana is very easy for this deck. So that means opponents Welders are your Welders!

Duplicant has good uses - but I think overall the card is too narrow.  Most of the time I'd prefer Trike or 2nd Pentavus.  But if you face the matchups where its most effective, then its the way to go (i.e. Madness and Tog).

Steve

[Toad]

The Duplicant is mentionned in the article because I'm often running one maindeck, because I looooooove seeing it against Tog, Oshawa Stompy or Madness. It's just a metagame call though, because Duplicant is rather bad against Control, where Pentavus often shines.

[Smmenen]

The Duplicant is mentionned in the article because I'm often running one maindeck, because I looooooove seeing it against Tog, Oshawa Stompy or Madness. It's just a metagame call though, because Duplicant is rather bad against Control, where Pentavus often shines.

Although Memnarch is the best critter against Control.  Personally, I'm seriously considering a 2nd Memnarch over the Windfall.

Steve

[GoGoChiaki]

Can someone explain to me a couple of things about slaver.  First i want to know in about the sideboard because i don't know how to construct that properly.  i always see 3nispheres in the board but i don't know why they arenet maindeck because slaver runs workshop and that should be good with sphere.

Also what is an appropriate sideboard for slaver?  i know the large men plan but i wonder what can be done vs hulk.  Basically, i want to know how to board with slaver adnd i want to know why the 3sphere isnt in the maindeck to begin with.

[Smash]

Look at some of the decklists. Ultimately, you need to adjust the SB for your meta, not just what people tell you to do.


3sphere just isn't THAT good of a metachoice right now. Its there for draw7, but nothing else I can think of.

[GoGoChiaki]

Look at some of the decklists. Ultimately, you need to adjust the SB for your meta, not just what people tell you to do.


3sphere just isn't THAT good of a metachoice right now. Its there for draw7, but nothing else I can think of.

You dont seem to get that im lookiing for somemone to tell me what to do.  i dont think thta i am going to be better at playing the slaverys than smmenen so i want to know how to play it from him not guess on what to do.  Plus i have a tournament coming ups in like 4 days and i am thinking abuot playnig slave.dec but i want to know wath the best side boark plan is.  Plus i dont have much time to do the testing and i would rather learn from the best guys on themanadrain than from people who are just going to tell me to figure it out muyself.

if 3sphere is no good against anything but dar7 then whey even bother putting it in the side??  Draw 7 dies to chalice for zero so why even bother worrying abuot it to begin with??

I am more worried about tog.dec which is the best deck right now anyway because it is what all the good player will have.

[Smash]

Jesus dude, invest in a spellchecker. At least try to spell 50% of your words correctly.

draw7 does not die to chalice for 0, in many builds - the correct chalice is still 1.

Look at smenneycakes deck and steal his sideboard if you really want to. It's posted right next to his decklist...

[GoGoChiaki]

I know the sideboard but useing it is the question because i he doesnt give an explanation about any of the reasons why it is with this:

3 bloodmoon
2 gorilla shamen
3 rack and ruin
2 red elemental blast
4 trinishpare
1 triskelion

Where is the man plan in this i dont see it.  I would like to see him explain how he sideboards and against what for this matches:

hulk
fish
u/g madness
dragon
sui
keeper
landstill
eba

I dunnu see any threads like this and i did the search.  Can someone explain how to sidboard with this deck instead of telling me things i already hered?

Please check your spelling and use punctuation / capital letters.
-- Toad.

[Smmenen]

Look at meandeck SBs from the Columbus Tournaments on Morphling.de

Against Hulk you just bring in Blood Moons.

Against Landstill you bring in Rack and Ruins.

Against Fish you bring in some Rack and Ruin/ Salvage and Man Plan.  Same with Osahwa.  The man plans means 2 Trikes and 2 Plat Angels and possibly one more man.

Red Elemental Blast is not good.  Trinisphere is there fore Combo and is really good against Food Chain Goblins and R/G Beatz.

Dragon: Blood Mooon

Suicide: man plan:

keeper: blood Moon.

EBA: Rack and Ruins and possibly some men - SB out Slavers becuase they will have so much hate - maybe keep one to Tinker up.

Steve