[Discussion] How necassary is red in GAT?

[DavidHernandez]

In old GAT (i.e. 4x gush), my counterbase was 4x FoW, 3x Counterspell, 3x MisD, along with 3x Duress

Yeah, I love Duress too.  Zhalfirin's build at National's last year was awesome and it smashed face.

You can still run Duress, but will have to sacrifice other cards to do it and right now I don't believe it's the best way to go.  It's best in the sideboard to be brought in against Control decks.  

Since Ultima and I have had the best result set with the current builds that have been posted, I believe that Duress is not as strong as the tutoring and card drawing that has replaced it.  

With a 4xGush build, this was not a problem, but for GAT to remain competitive now, Duress has to take a back seat.

Isochron Scepter's went in and out of the deck for a long time, and ultimately weren't as good as what's in there now.  Beyond that, I personnaly cannot run Scepters because I add Damping Matrix and (sometimes) Null Rods to stop people who like Scepters...

Dave.

[Ultima]

The reason why Duress SHOULDN"T be in the MD is very simple.

AGGRO-control- combo

That is to say that duress is a control card and is more suited to playing a style that is like Hulk, play duress, drop something good, play intuition, play ak's.  

What GAT wants to do is play Dryad first turn, not duress.  I cannot emphasize more this point. - Aside from Combo Tendrils or Rector, there isn't a deck in the format right now that can come back from a first turn dryad.  Its that powerful and fast.  This is what GAT wants and how GAT has to play.

As far as the the bauble, its not optimal for the main reason already stated- it doesn't pump the dryads which is KEY.  Dryads are not as fast with 4 gushes so its best not to make them even slower.

Regarding TFK, like i said its in GAT until something better comes out, its that simple.  While I am playing it now, i'm only half the number Dave is playing and am very comfortable with it.

Regarding FS, i am still on the opinion that's it too slow and clunky.  You really cannot afford to have this card in your opening hand in a format this fast.  Its simply a dead card right, IMO.

Regarding Sleights, i am playing them right now and am not dissapointed. They are very efficent in smoothing out mana and spell issues.  Right now I wouldn't play less than 6 cantrips.

Pulse is simply too slow with its uu cc.  Slavery can run right over it, and that means its gotta go.

[Rico Suave]

What GAT wants to do is play Dryad first turn, not duress.  I cannot emphasize more this point. - Aside from Combo Tendrils or Rector, there isn't a deck in the format right now that can come back from a first turn dryad.  Its that powerful and fast.  This is what GAT wants and how GAT has to play.

Um, while this may be the goal of the deck, there's a hell of a lot of decks that can bounce off a turn 1 Dryad. :|

[xzero]

The optimal Growing Tog list has Duress in the board to make the combo matchup better.  Barring amazing topdecks, Duress with Force backup is a very strong hand against combo and should win you the game.

Isochron Scepter is not a Growing Tog card.  The only decks I can ever see the card in, is in Keeper and Tog builds.  And tell me who doesn't play with artifact removal in the board, let alone maindeck.

[Ultima]

Um, while this may be the goal of the deck, there's a hell of a lot of decks that can bounce off a turn 1 Dryad.

RRRiiiiiggggghhhhhttt. Well, you let me know me one, and I'll test it again just to be sure.

[Hi-Val]

I've been having this wild and probably wrong idea about AKs. I am considering putting them back in to test around with. Here are the reasons:

1. AK is just faster, it plays sooner than TFK and gives the deck the draw that it needs. I like TFK and I agree that it's a mini FoF, but I have a personal preference for AK.

2. GAT in combo form runs more tutoring than Hulk does. I.e., GAT has Demonic, Vampiric, Mystical and Merchant Scroll where Hulk has Demonic, Wished Vampiric and Intuition, plus maybe Mystical. I feel that GAT can more accurately support Merchant Scroll, which hunts for those AKs in the Hulk match and, I feel, sways things back a little towards GAT.

Bear in mind that this is just untested theory. I think I am on to something and I will be giving it some extensive testing very soon. Anyone have ideas on it? At least the experiment will come up with what does/does not work. I think the added tutors (especially SCROLL) might help.

[Ultima]

I've been having this wild and probably wrong idea about AKs. I am considering putting them back in to test around with. Here are the reasons:

1. AK is just faster, it plays sooner than TFK and gives the deck the draw that it needs. I like TFK and I agree that it's a mini FoF, but I have a personal preference for AK.

2. GAT in combo form runs more tutoring than Hulk does. I.e., GAT has Demonic, Vampiric, Mystical and Merchant Scroll where Hulk has Demonic, Wished Vampiric and Intuition, plus maybe Mystical. I feel that GAT can more accurately support Merchant Scroll, which hunts for those AKs in the Hulk match and, I feel, sways things back a little towards GAT.

Bear in mind that this is just untested theory. I think I am on to something and I will be giving it some extensive testing very soon. Anyone have ideas on it? At least the experiment will come up with what does/does not work. I think the added tutors (especially SCROLL) might help.

I know the temptation of running AK, but trust me its not worth it.  Playing ak gives Hulk the ability to find an answer to your men, and makes you hesitate to play your own spells which is what you need to do to play aggressively.  The tutors don't help at all really because yuo don't want to see ak against Hulk, and your MD becomes too tight for DA also.  It highly not recommended.

Trust me, as you'll see in testing, playing AK lowers your chances against Hulk to such a degree that you bad matchs just went up another big 1 and your SB doesn't have the slots to handle it, putting you into scooping form way more often.

[DavidHernandez]

Hmmm.

We've slipped off-topic.  This is a "RED IN GAT" discussion.

Are we done with that?  Has everyone come around to my way of thinking, admitting that Red belongs?

For reference, here is the mana base and the sideboard that I run.  If you don't like Magical Hack, replace it with BEB.

1 Black Lotus
1 SOL RING
1 MOX JET
1 MOX EMERALD
1 MOX SAPPHIRE
1 MOX RUBY
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island
(22)

Sideboard:
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Berserk
1 Magical Hack
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Coffin Purge
1 Stifle
1 Artifact Mutation
1 Fire/Ice
1 Naturalize
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Rack and Ruin
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 DAMPING MATRIX

Dave.

[Ultima]

My opinion of Red is, at the moment, its totally a metagame choice.

If i'm playing in a meta like Columbus, red is in, hands down.
But in meta like the northeast, i'm a 3-color man.

You just have to make the call on whether its necassary to add red and lower the chances of the 1st turn dryad for the answers that red can give to your board.

However, it should be noted that red should see some consideration also if you expect the mirror alot too as I suspect that the same concept applies like Old-GAT in that the red splash breaks the mirror for you.

[Matt]

Cantrips are only worth their slot in GAT now if they dig, and dig NOW.  Opt can't dig like Sleight and neither as good as Serum Visions, which is why I believe their good in that order.

You don't have to phrase these things with qualifiers like "IMHO" and "I believe" anymore. Serum Visions is "hands down" better than Sleight of Hand.