[Discussion] How necassary is red in GAT?

[Matt]

Perhaps Mana Drain could fuel these new draw engines with lots of colorless mana.

[Ultima]

While that was the idea at first, after the testing, it proved ineffective.  The reason being that Workshop, especially Slavery, can make your control ineffective with chalices and FOW's.  Then you end up losing alot of tempo because you stalled out a turn to play control.

Its very difficult to understand the proper role in playing Workshop.  I opted to look at the combo route because then they have try to control you which becomes gradually ineffective with only FOW's and chalice, both becoming to narrow against this style of combo.

[DavidHernandez]

Ultima's comments on Workshop decks are the reason I so strongly advocate red in the build.  Beating Slavery (both types), MUD, and 7/10 Split become easier.  Also, access to REB along with 3 Misdirections is huge against Control.

I also advocate the transformational sideboard (2 or 3 Damping Matrix) to fight the Hulk and Slavery (and other artifact) matchups.

Right now, the only deck that really pisses me off is Gay/r.

Dave.

[eddavatar]

@Dave: The matrix should be good in the slaver matchup. But i'm not sure if it's such a great idea against hulk. It's just so awful to see hulk cunning wish for mutation. Matrix should not really bother the hulk player if he's smart. But the 2-3 slots dedicated against slaver should be worth it.

Gay/r shouldn't be too bad of a match considering our threats are bigger and nastier. Any dryads that's bigger than 4/4 should laugh in their face.

[DavidHernandez]

Try it.

--Dave.

[eddavatar]

Dave: I did played against gay/r before. They never did bother me. We have a superior threat base and better at going broken.

As for the matrix for hulk thing. Is it worth sapping yourself the potential to combo out against hulk is all I'm wondering. As I've mentioned in other threads, matrix falls prey to hulk's inevitability. So by removing your own inevitability for the ability to slow down their inevitability may not be the best strategy. Let's play monday or something.

[DavidHernandez]

Sorry, I meant "try the Matrix strategy".

Yes, I think it's worth it.  I don't think it's just a personal preference, because I find that when the Matrix hits the table it's a huge bomb against the opponent.

Seriously, Tog's aren't nearly so good when a 7/7 Dryad forces them to chump block under the Matrix.  Also, with the number of Counters and MisD's and REB's, the deck can stop the Hulk player from casting an answer.

Dave.

[monstre]

What is the optimal draw engine for GAT?

I can't offer a definitive answer, but I'm pretty confident the first step is to include a second merchant scroll. Consider that if you have no land to play during a given turn, scroll->gush really costs one mana for 2 cards and 2 dryad counters. I've found myself fetching gush over ancestral recall surprinsingly often. Between those two cards, I think the inclusion of a second scroll is warranted, considering the lack of satysfying alternatives when it comes to card drawing in GAT. I've even started playing with regrowth again for similar reasons, but that's a story for another day.

Also, I hate to spread rumors, but if serum vision turns out to be for real (and actually is an instant), I think it could be the missing piece of the puzzle. Ever since the restriction of gush, I haven't been able to come up with a decent replacement. Ultima's suggestion of pulse of the grid is interesting, but is this really the best we can do ? I've been playing around with other options, even stuff like sylvan library and meditate, and I admit I can't come up with anything better. Still, pulse doesn't strike me as an ideal solution, so what am I missing ?

Anyway, kudos to Ultima and others for sharing their work with people like me  

[eddavatar]

If you are to run merchant scroll, you might as well run Deep anal. They're at around the same speed.

Serum Vision is like Mini-Impulse, or slightly improved opt. I don't see how ground-breaking it can get since it is not really a draw engine. The deck is not as fast as the original GAT to make a cantrip broken. That is the reason why opt is not used anymore.

The only reason why Ultima is using the pulse is because we can easily burn our hand to abuse it multiple times. But the double blue is just so intimidating.

[monstre]

If you are to run merchant scroll, you might as well run Deep anal. They're at around the same speed.

My point was that merchant scroll and then gush actually cost less than the scroll alone. If you only end up paying one mana, the fact that it's a sorcery shouldn't be much of a problem imho.

I agree that there's nothing ground-breaking about serum vision, but I would be willing to settle for that if a better alternative doesn't emerge by then. It's quite possible of course that a better alternative already exists and that I'm just not seeing it, which is why I was asking for your help in the first place.

[martyr]

Serum Vision is horrible compared to Brainstorm. It doesn't protect against Discard, and whatever disadvantage Brainstorm has is negated by Tutpors and Fetch lands.

Would a Tog deck that ran Damping Matrixes instead of Tog, with Dryads be viable? It seems like it'd be more controlling and disruptive than combo-esque, and that might give you the framework you need to truly abuse Mana Drain.

[Ultima]

The point to serum vision is that its better than Sleight and Opt.  

But the fact remains that there needs to be a better draw engine, IMO.

[rologa]

Hi, I started to play GAT 1 year ago and I would like to put my thoughs about the direction that the deck has took lately.

- Draw engine: First of all say that as much of us think I find AK insuficient as a draw engine. It only shines when you find your third AK but lot of times you pitch one to a FoW or MisD so it's very difficult to find it. Sometimes it was great (when you find it just after playing another) but no enough often.
I started to test Skeletal Scrying and Impulse. Impulse deep well into your library but often you don't want to put 3 useful cards at the botton of your library. It accelerated a little the deck but without adding card adventage. Skeletal Scrying were good sometimes but slowly another ones. The lost of life is hard against aggro decks and emptying your graveyard when it is countered against control is very disgusting also.
When Ultima put is deck the first time I though that I cannot adapt my deck to put TFK because I only have 2 Moxes (no proxies in Spain) and it seems not enough to take adventage of TFK. But then I made the changes and started to test. I found that the deck is really faster than with AK. The TFK is powered by mana from drains, it really deeps into your library soon and often you can throw an artifact, DA or redundant dryads when you have one in play. It optimizes your hand in the same matter as brainstorm and fetch lands do. I like DA also but sometimes is too expensive to be cast and is a dead card in your hand waiting to be pitched to FoW.
I agree that FoF has to be on the main deck. I don't understand why people start to put in the sideboard. The only problem is his 4 cc, but if you draw it early you can always pitch it to FoW and find it lately with cunning as if it was in your sideboard.
Another card I find useful is Sleight of Hand. It helps a lot to make the deck consistent, helping to find mana sources at the first turns or when your enemy has taken the mana denial route and cycling after. But I think 3 are too much, with 2 and the 4 brainstorm you have enough consistency and I prefer a draw card instead of the 3 sleight.

- Mana sources: Well I have test the Mana Crypt and I found very useful, much more than Sol Ring. But you have to play it carefully. Normally I keep it in my hand until the moment it will be useful (normally to cast TFK or Will). To put into play Crypt too early can cost you games. If I have enough mana I keep it to throw it to TFK.
I don't play 4 colours, I find that red can disturb too much the mana base and I prefer to have more stable mana base that a better sideboard.
I continue to have the solitary Strip Mine. Sometimes is very useful and help me to win matches I cannot win without it but sometimes it sucks. I supose I will replace it in the future for another coloured source but at the moment I prefer to keep.

- Workshop matches: As I said before I don't want to add red color to fight artifact decks. What I found is that if you can deal with the first threats you can ruin completely is plan. To try to prevent this I find Annul and Duress very useful, you only need 2 o 3 turns to overhelm this decks and FoW, Annul and Duress help a lot.
I have to comment that I don't have test the Slavery match properly, it isn't very popular in my meta. It's posible that after test it properly I change my mind about adding red colour.

Well, this weekend I have a tournament and I will pilot my GAT list (similar to the list which Ultima win last tournament but replacing DA with FoF and Sleigh of Hand and MisD with Duress). I let you know more thoughts after it.

Roberto.

[DavidHernandez]

The more I think about Thirst for Knowledge, the more I like it.  It really is like playing with extra Fact or Fictions.  I'm going to run a 4th one and see how that plays out.

Opt and Sleight are still good too, but Thirst's are a real gem.

dave.

[Purple Hat]

I tried opts down in hadley last week.  I T8ed despite my horrible play errors, proving to me that this deck is insanely broken at times.  by at times I mean anytime you resolve a dryad early and follow it with spells.  I was drawing so many cards that I almost always had what I needed in any given situation.  

but getting back to my point.  I really, really, didn't like the opts.  I've been testing impulse in their place with mixed results.  some times I don't want to put 3 on the bottom and sometimes I'd rather get rid of three of those cards and continue going off.  if only it worked the way it used to, pre-erata and you could shuffle your library after.  that'd be cool, too bad that had to be fixed.

TFK has been great.  I'm probably not gonna go to 4 though leaving me with a draw configuration something like this:

3 TFK
1 Ancestral
4 Brainstorm
1 FoF
1 Gush
1 futuresight (I like it.  I'm getting it turn 3 or better fairly reliably and it improves my aggro matchup.  I side it out alot, but I like it)

I'm also considering putting Scrying in the sideboard so if I draw a wish in the midgame, and can't make the kill yet I can wish for some card draw.

[Ultima]

Sleight is definitely superior to opt, IMO.

I know Dave likes opt as well because its an instant, but really the thing that makes Sleight better, and then Serum Visions over Sleight is how much that bastard DIGS.  Cantrips are only worth their slot in GAT now if they dig, and dig NOW.  Opt can't dig like Sleight and neither as good as Serum Visions, which is why I believe their good in that order.

As far as thirst, I can only conclude after testing, upon testing, upon testing, and to even writing down every known draw engine and draw mechanic/spell, that Thirst is GAT's only real option.

Therefore I must conclude that GAT unless 5th dawn brings something better, TFK is in GAT for a good long time.

[Matt]

Opt can't dig like Sleight and neither as good as Serum Visions, which is why I believe their good in that order.

I am TOTALLY on board with this. As long as some of your deck's cards are better than others, being able to find those good cards is the most important thing a deck could have.

Also, Serum Visions is BB, so I get to ditch these damn 7th Sleights.

[DavidHernandez]

Also, Serum Visions is BB...

Right on.

Cantrips are only worth their slot in GAT now if they dig

Absolutely agreed, which is why I love the TFK.  Running 3 TFK is the minimum, and I'm currently testing 4 (and loving it).  This makes my current draw engine:

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Gush
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Brainstorm

As for Opt, you are correct in stating that I prefer it because it is an instant.  It effectively does what Time Walk does, but for 1 less mana, and gives you the option of passing on the card on top.  I like that a lot.

Dave.

[Hi-Val]

Remembering back to the days of Gro, it was Sleight, not Opt, that powered up the deck and let you keep 1-land hands if you had one in the opening. Opt, though an instant, is inherently more risky because you might not hit that land that you need. In the same way, Serum isn't very good in the early turns (when cantrips matter) because it doesn't dig, it only draws. Good use of Drain mana though, and probably could be investigated more. However, I feel that it is essentially like Dream Cache-- looks good, but not worth it.

[Purple Hat]

@ Ultima:
Is it safe to say from your results that Pulse of the Grid did not pan out in testing resulting in a return to TFK?

In my tests Pulse felt a little too matchup dependant for something with UU in the cost.  Sometimes I saw it and it just kinda sucked.  I'm still having luck with futuresight though.  I know people on this thread say you don't need it but I feel like that kind of card advantage on turn 3 or 4 just can't be a bad thing.  But I think I need to start mulliganing more aggressively and that might cause it to suck.

[DavidHernandez]

Opt is old tech at this point.  I only mention it because I like its cost and speed.  Pulse, with UU in the cost, is not good enough and can be frustrating.

TFK is the way to go right now.

Future Sight is great but too slow and is a 'win more' card.  See previous posts by a couple of us regarding "why".  Yes, I love the card.  But, it's not right.

Dave.

[LizardKING]

I agree THK has to be MD to generate Card Advantage, but there is a subtle point I would like to underline. The build of GAT has to be more focussed on playing spells than drawing cards. One may reply : Funny guy, how can play spells when your hand is empty ? My answer is Isochron Scepter. This card allows you to play spells forever if you want, and is definitely a silver bullet. The best choice for GAT is to imprint Fire/Ice (or in a lesser extent Mana Drain), which has the following consequences :

1- Fire can kill Welders
2- Ice can neuter Aggro
3- Ice fuels the hand  

Of course, the lonely Scepter is an artifact and it lacks synergy with the dryad when it comes into play, but after a few turn, it has always be great to me. Here is my current build :
 

3 Psychatog
4 Quirion Dryad

3 Misdirection
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will

1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
2 Fire/Ice

1 Gush
3 Cunning Wish
2 Isochron Scepter  
2 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Brainstorm

1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
3 VOLCANIC ISLAND
2 Island

Sideboard:
1 Berserk
1 Misdirection
1 Magical Hack
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Coffin Purge
1 Stifle
1 Naturalize
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Artifact Mutation
2 REB
1 Fire/Ice
1 Diabolic Edict

[jdl]

Re: Magical Hack

For what you guys are trying to use Magical Hack, wouldn't Whim of Volrath be a better choice?

[zero]

I played around with GAT a week ago at my local tourney, going -1 fastbond and +2 duress, because I'm guaranteed to see 2 keepers everytime I show up (and I probably will not play it Ultima combo style, so I didn't miss fastbond) . Yes, I know it's 61 cards, I always play 61 cards as a personal preference, I don't need a statistics lecture. In old GAT (i.e. 4x gush), my counterbase was 4x FoW, 3x Counterspell, 3x MisD, along with 3x Duress, and I was trying to replicate it as much as possible, because I was both comfortable with it and found it allowed me the most flexibility in pursuing my plan of attack, as well as a way to fight combo decks. If an early dryad went farming, I usually used the duress and cspells to clear the way for a yawg will, that sort of thing.
It also occured to me that those duress could also have been sleights ( BB, from portal, the way God intended, with phil foglio artwork), because sometimes I wanted to dig just a little more, and my hands felt light because TFK doesn't always help in that department. Does anyone feel that MD duress or slights (b4 serum visions is legal, anyway) are worth checking out, or have they already been tested and found wanting? Or is it really a question of play style between comboing early or giving yourself a little more late game?
Anyway, great work,  I'm really starting to warm up to this incarnation of GAT; the thirst's are better than they look at first glance, and it's a lot of fun to play. It feels like it's a few tweaks away from being fully optimal, but I guess that's what we're here for. I played around with energy flux a year ago in GAT as a sideboard plan to combat the then new prison decks emerging, but that may no longer be an option now that GAT is running the full set of artifact mana also. Since I'm the only one with workshops who regularly shows up anyway, I can't really test that one out in a real game situation. I had fluxes used against me whan playing Mud vs. fish, and they were harsh, but I've never seen them used against slaver. I hope we don't just write it off as a bad match-up.

[Purple Hat]

Dave, I did read the earlier posts, see my last re: futuresight

 

I know people on this thread say you don't need it but I feel like that kind of card advantage on turn 3 or 4 just can't be a bad thing

I'm starting to mull more aggressively to find either the turn 1-2 drayd+ draw or the turn 1-2 fastbond+draw, and playing a bit more aggressively.  I'm begining to see what you guys mean, but I still feel like I must be playing it wrong.  sometimes I see my drayds under growing and it hurts me inside.  they were meant to get big and smash face, but I just sit there looking at my counters preparing for the big war over gush or ancestral or yawg will.  I seem to just stall in some games when I brainstorm looking for more draw/search and flip something like MisD, FoW, land with Drain, drain, wish in hand.   I'm gonna try the fourth TFK like you were suggesting in place of the Futuresight this weekend and see how that goes.

[monstre]

Given the consensus around thirst for knowledge, would urza's bauble make sense in this deck ? As long as we're looking at cantrips again, maybe it's worth considering since it works so well with thirst and is otherwise almost transparent. Has anyone tried playing around with this idea ?

[Dr. Sylvan]

Given the consensus around thirst for knowledge, would urza's bauble make sense in this deck ? As long as we're looking at cantrips again, maybe it's worth considering since it works so well with thirst and is otherwise almost transparent. Has anyone tried playing around with this idea ?

Bauble's cantrip is delayed until your next upkeep. That's why it's not good in anything I can think of.

Also, it doesn't pump Quirion Dryad.

[monstre]

Bauble's cantrip is delayed until your next upkeep. That's why it's not good in anything I can think of.

Also, it doesn't pump Quirion Dryad.

And it's awful when there's a trinisphere around. Still, none of this is relevant when it is discarded to thirst. Maybe it's just me, but I've seen a lot of ideas get shot down over some trivia without considering the trade-offs involved, kinda like how people were dismissing serum visions because of brainstorm even though no one was suggesting cutting said brainstorms. Yes, urza's bauble is far from perfect, but the question is wether the potential free card when playing thirst is enough to overcome its defects. Compromises like these are hard to quantify (for me anyway), so I can only suggest looking at both sides of the coin before settling the matter either way.

Oh, and I certainly didn't mean this as an attack against Dr. Sylvan, only as a reflection on the level of discourse of these fora in general. Please forgive me if I offended anyone.

[Matt]

The biggest problem with Bauble is that it messes up your mulligans. Imagine a hand of five spells, one land, and a Bauble. If that Bauble were a land OR a spell, you'd know whether to mulligan or not - but the unknown top card of the deck spills no secrets.

It may be worth a try though, and it's far from set in stone. My intuition tells me it's not going to cut it, but it is worth testing if you feel like it. I just don't think the deck makes enough use out of it. Perhaps it would be a better fit in SuperGro, where the Bauble's effect could inform your Meddling Mages.

[rologa]

I agree with Ultima about Sleight being superior to Opt. The main reason to MD cantrips is to make the deck more consistent, trying to avoid mulligans. For this task is better Sleight because it diggers more into the deck helping to find the second land at the begining or more card drawing after. I'm not sure about Serum Visions being superior. It diggers more but you don't have the cards at the moment and this will be dangerous, what is good now can be a dead card next turn depending what your enemy do in his turn.
The Scepter isn't a good addition to this deck, it fails to be strong in more controllish decks like Keeper or Hulk so I don't know how will be good in GAT. GAT is very light in mana producers and to take adventage of the Scepter you need a lot of mana. I think his best use in GAT will be to discard to TFK but isn't enough to justify his inclusion.
The same can be aplied to urza's bauble. To MD cards that only will be good for discarding it isn't a good strategy, except if you play Madness.

Roberto.