Control or Combo Slaver, Which one and Why?

[jazzykat]

I think it depends if you are still running blood moon in the side a little although it is an interesting configuration and seems to protect you a bit more in the face of wastelands.

I like a slightly higher basic island count as I am always using blood moon. Also where is the LOA :0

[The Hamburgler]

The Atog Lord:
So true, I had the same problem with Control Slaver, and if you may be interested, I just played in a tournament with 3 Control Slaver(Chris Huffinagle, Mike O’Niel and “insert random name here�), me (piloting “Workshop� Slaver), Hulk(Firefall26/ Mike Small), Broodstar-runner(Mike O’Connel), FCG (Plainswalker/ Greg Powers), WTF and For the Glory (Rob the Swordsman/ Rob Chaplain). It wasn’t a big tournament, but Control slaver took up nearly a third of the tournament, so I thought you may be interested. I will describe it a bit towards the end. I think it is dawning on people that Gorilla Shaman is a bigger problem for Control Slaver, as opposed to Workshop Slaver. I think Fire/Ice is too good to miss out on, it kills two Goblin Welder or Gorilla Shaman, can be pitched to a Force of Will, isn’t shut down by

Covetous
I don’t find the name misleading, I think everyone should be able to define the difference, and know that there are two different builds. I still don’t think that “Workshop� Slaver can be defined as control, even if it may play out like one. It really depends on your opening hand, if I see a lot of draw effects, no Workshops and a Library of Alexandria, then I am playing control and vice versa. The artifact “problem� doesn’t really exist to me, as after you Mindslaver them, you generally reset their board position, and take control of the game. In most games, Mindslaver doesn’t get activated more than 1-2 times. If you are still having fluxes with this, then consider trying alternate sources, Seat of the Synod (I hate it, but it is metagamed and opinionated) or even Gilded Lotus. If you get a Pentavus in play, then the problem is cured. Simple as that.

Bahza
See me reply to The Atog Lord, and I don’t see any good early Welder Tricks, as using a Spellbomb and weldering it back in would lose you an artifact, something that people are finding critical now.

Glenchuy
I am still perfecting “workshop� Slaver’s manabase. I think it was Carl who came up with Bloodstained Mire and the lone Mountain. I like it, but don’t understand the reasoning. Why not get a Volcanic Island? If a Blood Moon is in play it is a Mountain anyways. I understand fears of Wasteland, but maybe this tweaking is excessive? I will talk more once I have done more testing.

Bulls on Parade
I still think that running a Mountain is a bit excessive. Maybe Stifle somewhere would help, if you were that afraid of Wasteland. Not to be repetitive, but I will provide more reasoning when I test this more extensively.


Thug
I have the results, and will explain after. This isn’t a tournament report, although it was a tournament, it was only for cash and there were only ten people (I described it in my preamble). This is more of an outline as to where certain cards played their role, and some that didn’t. First, however, this is the list I played:

Creatures (7):
4 Goblin Welder
1 Pentavus
1 Memnarch
1 Sundering Titan (MVP)

Draw/ Search and Broken stuff (17):
4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk*
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Timetwister**
1 Memory Jar
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth’s Will

Protection (8):
4 Force of Will
3 Mindslaver
1 Mind Twist

Manabase (28):
4 Volcanic Island
4 Mishra’s Workshop
4 Flooded Strand
3 Shivan Reef
2 Underground Sea
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring

Sideboard***:
4 Trinisphere
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Gorilla Shaman
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Triskelion
1 Viashino Heretic
1 Platinum Angel

Time Walk*:
The whole tournament, I only used this as a search method. Although this may be a bastardization of its potential brokenness, but if it was a savagely important Time Walk, it generally wouldn’t resolve.

Timetwister**:
 I cast it twice this tournament, once leading to a win (dropped it second turn) the other one ran into a Mana Drain. I later lost the game due to a ‘Tog doing that thing where it gets big.

The Sideboard***:
It was metagamed, only one deck there packed Null Rod (WTF) and it isn’t such a threat to me. The Heretic may seem random, but it’s supposed to be a ninja surprise. I used 3 BEB and 1 REB because, I along with Thug realized that BEB takes care of the threats and disruption like Gorilla Shaman, Rack and Ruin, opposing Goblin Welders and I expected to play FCG eventually. I didn’t have a big plan for Null Rod, as there wasn’t to much here. I am a big believer in metagaming, and my sideboard is an example of this.

Round One: Mike Small (Firefall26) playing Hulk

Hulk is a match up I'm not to afraid of, I just have to activate a Mindslaver or lay a Sundering Titan and I win.

Game One
I start off swinging with Mishra's Workshop, Mana Crypt and then Memory Jar. The only problem is, he won the dice roll and went first turn fetch and a Mox Sapphire. My Memory Jar ran into a Mana Drain, and he gets Deep Analysis. I try to even out the field with a Timetwister next turn, but it was countered (Mana Drain). He plays Black Lotus, Ancestral Recall and Time Walk, then Yawgmoth's Will. He plays a Psychatog, and it gets bigger from Cunning Wish ~> Berserk. Onto the sideboarding.

So hard to sideboard with this, but this is what I decided on:
-2 Brainstorm
-1 Time Walk
-1 Wheel of Fortune
-1 Memory Jar
-1 Fact or Fiction
-1 Timetwister

+4 Trinisphere
+3 Blue Elemental Blast

I am still working on SBing, it is very hard to get room. Timetwister refills their hands with answers, and Fact or Fiction is worthless as it just feeds Mana Drain.

Trinisphere was more of a bluff spot, but it still is good. When you board in seven cards, not only is it intimidating, they are thinking about what you boarded in.

Game Two
I win the roll and have the most ridiculous opening hands yet:
Trinisphere, Mana Crypt, Black Lotus, Tinker, Volcanic Island and Thirst for Knowledge.
I win, but I played it cool. First turn Lotus, Mana Crypt, Volcanic Island, Trinisphere and Thirst for Knowledge. Turn three I dropped Tinker for Sundering Titan, giving me an automatic win (he can't play anything for three turns, and I can deal 21 damage in that time elapse)

-4 Trinisphere

+1 Timetwister
+2 Brainstorm
+1 Fact or Fiction

Game Three
We go over a lot of counter wars, a BEB a Gorilla Shaman, and Mind Twist him for three. I eventually get a Sundering Titan down and kill three of his lands. Time is called, and he is at two life. He manages to play Gorilla Shaman and a Psychatog to get the tie.

0-0-1

Round Two against Control Slaver- Chris Huffinagle

Control Slaver is very favorable now, and I will take on any argument against it. Sundering Titan WINS every time it gets in. If people don't understand how it works, I will supply an example:
Say your opponent has a Volcanic Island, an Island and an Underground Sea. You have a Volcanic Island, an Underground Sea and a Workshop. You play the Sundering Titan, killing his island, Volcanic (red) and Underground Sea (black). This means that your B/U/R sources can't be targetted, because you have already destroyed one of each. Sorry for the intrusion, onto round two:

Game One
He is manascrewed and a feast all over it. I resolve a third turn Sundering Titan, as he used his Force of Will on my Goblin Welder. He can't handle the beat down, and I Force of Will a Gorilla Shaman.

+3 BEB’s
+1 Triskelion

-1 Wheel of Fortune
-1 Memory Jar
-1 Brainstorm
-1 Goblin Welder

It might be weird, sideboarding out a Goblin Welder, but it ;lessons the chance of your opponent getting a Mindslaver lock on you with your Goblin Welder, and he uses no Fire/Ice, so I shouldn't need more than one. I am only testing this theory notably.

Game Two
He starts off with a Volcanic Island and a Gorilla Shaman, staring down a hand with three moxen, I attempt a Force of Will. It resolves, even though he bluffed having one. I play a Brainstorm, see a Tinker and a Sundering Titan. This reminds me of the Rector-Trix days. I Tinker out the Titan, and win shortly thereafter.
1-0-1

Round Three against FCG- Greg Powers
My notes (by notes I mean memory) is very scattered here, I just know I lost, hard. I do remember I kept a hand at one point with two moxen, ancestral, Tinker, Time Walk and a Trinisphere, and never top decked a land.
1-1-1

Round Four: For The Glory- Rob the Swordsmen
This is a fairly tough match up, he has Null Rod, Swords to Plowshares, strip effects and River Boa.

Game One
I start big and Wheel of Fortune, getting rid of a Null Rod. I play a third turn Sundering Titan, destroying four lands. I win shortly after.

Game Two
I lay down Sundering Titan again. He Swords it, but it just kill all his lads. Again. I drop a Pentavus after a Mind Twist for four. I win shortly, and asked what I got rid of with the Mind Twist and it was the following:
Null Rod, Swords to Plowshares, River Boa and a White Knight, leaving him with two lands and a Wasteland. Mise.
2-1-1

Top Four against FCG again

This needs a lot of work on for me. I lost here and lost earlier. Testing and sideboard options need to been vacated.

Game One
I feel confident about this hand, as I open up with a second turn Sundering Titan. It just gets better and better, as I drop Memnarch and Time Walk for the win.

Game Two
He brings in Root Maze, and it fulfilled its destination this game. I was slowed down enough for him to drop fat. I BEB some stuff, but the combo prevails.

Game Three
I really should have mulligan, as I kept a hand consisting of:
Volcanic Island, fetch, 2 BEB and a Goblin Welder, and I use the BEBS on a Siege-Gang Commander and a Warchief. He does that thing where he plays three Piledrivers, and they do that thing where they have protection from blue. The goblins prevail, and I lose staring at no lands, a Goblin Welder in play and an army of protection from blue nuisances.

Mind Twist held it's end of the bargain, the only fear was Misdirection or Mana Drain. I ended up with money for the 99, but didn't go, opting to go home and get some well-needed sleep. Thank you for reading, any questions, comments? Spare change?
- The Hambugler

[Thug]

Damn, just lost a pretty long reply, heres a short version:

Creatures (7):
4 Goblin Welder
1 Pentavus
1 Memnarch
1 Sundering Titan (MVP)

Draw/ Search and Broken stuff (17):
4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk*
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Timetwister**
1 Memory Jar
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth’s Will

Protection (8):
4 Force of Will
3 Mindslaver
1 Mind Twist

Manabase (28):
4 Volcanic Island
4 Mishra’s Workshop
4 Flooded Strand
3 Shivan Reef
2 Underground Sea
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring

Sideboard***:
4 Trinisphere
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Gorilla Shaman
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Triskelion
1 Viashino Heretic
1 Platinum Angel

No gilded Lotus, 19 lands?
Can you still justify Workshop, it seems mainly there for your sideboard.
Wouldn't you be off better with Control Slaver, since that's where you're deck is going.

You didn't bring in the Shamans versus Control Slaver, but I though they were mainly there for that matchup. Wouldn't you rather have other cards in that spot (REB's?)

A maindeck Triskelion makes the FCG matchups better already, I very rarely have problems with the deck, the only thing to fear is that you get combo'd out without a FoW on hand. But this should never happen twice in three games.

I don't really like the Titan, especially against control slaver since they can stop your whle deck with just a Welder. You're Titan will make sure no-one ever keeps a land in play for longer than a turn, nor will you ever attack with the Titan since they can just weld it out. This leads to very long frustating games.

You seem to mulligan quite a lot, what was the main reason for this? do you think you did mulligan aggresive enough?

Do you often board in Trinispheres if you go first? This is something I consider a good sideboard plan against a whole lot of decks, and I would like to know your opinion on this.

I missed some point I had before, but I'm sure I will come up with them later.

Koen

[The Hamburgler]

I am still indecisive, here however I purposely left out the Gilded Lotus. Since there were 16 copies of Mana Drain in a ten man tournament, they were just asking for a tempo-smack .

I can still justify Workshop, as it can still unleash fatties and threats against some match ups that make it all worthwhile. It is much more stable I find with this build, however normally I use three Gilded Lotus.

I brought in Shamans, but forgot about it. Sorry for the typo/ short-term memory. I will edit it in.

I don't generally mulligan due to a bad hand; it is more of aggressive muligans. Unless against control where you play "who has more cards", it can fetch extra broken.

Trinisphere can be boarded in on impulse, but is nearly always brought in when playing first. Sometimes, I bring them in even when playing second against control, they won't explode giving them an advantage, and it ensures resolution of threats. It is all opening minded and opinionated. I think you have a point that I am leaning (list-wise) towards Control Slaver, and will definitely define values of the differences between the two. I just play tested and side boarded against Control Slaver, and found Gilded Lotus an unnecessary Mana Drain target. I normally run three.
-The Hamburgler

[glenchuy]

I like a slightly higher basic island count as I am always using blood moon. Also where is the LOA :0

oops.  it's a typo, it should have an LOA, sorry, my bad.

Glenchuy
I am still perfecting “workshop� Slaver’s manabase. I think it was Carl who came up with Bloodstained Mire and the lone Mountain. I like it, but don’t understand the reasoning. Why not get a Volcanic Island? If a Blood Moon is in play it is a Mountain anyways. I understand fears of Wasteland, but maybe this tweaking is excessive? I will talk more once I have done more testing.

good point, but there were just times when i'd fetch for a volcanic, drop a welder, and next turn it gets wasted without giving me the opportunity to drop blood moon.  however, i must point out that drawing an opening of island + island + mountain is horrible and even with only one mountain, it happend at least twice in ten total matches.

[Toad]

No Gilded Lotus...
Whoa. Just whoa.

:shock:

[The Hamburgler]

TOAD:
I explained this; it is just a Mana Drain target for Control Slaver to win off. I do use it. It isn't as necessary as in your builds, where you don't have very much colored mana sources. I took it out so my Control Match up wouldn't be Mana Drain owned due to a virtually unnecessary 5cc target. I do use it most of the time, and am surprised you didn't make that connection. I thought this was a correct play, if you were playing in a tournament where 50% of the people were playing 4 Mana Drain (in Control Slaver) what would you do to prepare? Obviously I know that once a Gilded Lotus resolves it stabilizes the game, and you generally win shortly thereafter. Try a few games with this, with extra U sources, you get an early Brainstorm much more often, leading to more land and enough sufficiency to balance out the game. After the tournament, however I put the three Gilded Lotus back in, much to your concern.

Glenchuy:
True, but I will still put the idea into some testing, great innovation from Carl.

[Toad]

I'd never play this deck without Gilded Lotus because they are its backbone and one of the reason to play Mishra's Workshop. They are awesome against Control because they help to face Wastelands and Gorilla Shaman and resolving a Gilded is a key play against Keeper. It's a strong Tinker target, it helps to fuel Mindslavers and is insane with Memnarch and Pentavus. Sure, it's a huge Mana Drain target, but so is Mindslaver, Memnarch, Pentavus, Duplicant, Triskelion, Fact or Fiction, Force of Will or Mind Twist. Even in a metagame full of Mana Drain I'd never run less than 3 of these. It's like saying TNT is a bad deck because Mana Drain exists. We all know the tempo boost Mana Drain can provide. Just play around.

[Rico Suave]

The Hamburgler:

I find your decklist rather funny, because it looks like it really wants to turn into this deck.

With that deck you have enough reasons to take out Gilded Lotus.  You get to drop Trinispheres and Titans (plural!) on people.  It seems like it has all the good things you were adapting to your deck...

I don't like to toot my own horn, but I figured you might get something from it.  What do you think?

[The Hamburgler]

Toad:
Maybe I was misinterpreted here. Sure, Mind Twist, Mindslaver, Triskelion, Pentavus, Sundering Titan, Memnarch and Fact or Fiction are big Mana Drain targets. But they have a huge effect on the game, where as Gilded Lotus gives you a mana acceleration, and yes I know how vital it is to the deck. Try a few with the black (if you haven't) because, like I said, it is much more consistent in getting the blue mana source so you can get a draw going. I have NEVER Tinkered off a Gilded Lotus, as there are more than likely a Mox or tapped Mana Vault to target instead. This is a dead argument, as I was just testing out sideboarding out Gilded Lotus against Control Slaver and found it an alright move, so I tried running zero. I put in three Gilded Lotus and am now testing out Triskelion, Platinum Angel, Chalice of the Void (again) and am for sure using three Gilded Lotus. After you use a Mishra's Workshop to cast a Gilded Lotus, you rarely use the Mishra's Workshop again (unless hard casting Mindslaver, Pentavus etc). This is the U/R list I have testing, and it isn't
Creatures (7)
4 Goblin Welder
1 Pentavus
1 Sundering Titan
1 Memnarch

Draw/ Search (12)
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Tinker

Draw 7's (3)
1 Memory Jar
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Timetwister

Protection (7)
4 Force of Will
3 Mindslaver
3 Chalice of the Void*

Manabase
7 SoLoMoxen
4 Volcanic Island
4 Mishra's Workshop
3 Gilded Lotus
3 Shivan Reef
2 Polluted Delta
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault

* Depends on what your meta looks like

Thanks for your concern about Gilded Lotus, it was just a test run.
-The Hamburgler

EDIT: Rico Sauve
Actually, the deck originated from my own version of BFD. It is just I found a lot of situations where a Slaver lock would reset an opponents field, so that the Titan would be more effective and would serve as an essential Time Walk. I have read that thread, played with the deck but was flamed extensively by the Cape Cod Crew (my team). It seemed like I would do something silly like a first Tinker~> Titan and it would run into an Edict or a Swords. Although this may be cute, it just lost to FCG and Dragon, especailly game two (some FCG builds Root Maze SB, so Trinisphere is delayed 3 turns) and the deck lacks Force of Will. I never tested Serum Power, is it good? Looks a bit janky.
-The Hamburgler

[Rico Suave]

EDIT: Rico Sauve
Actually, the deck originated from my own version of BFD. It is just I found a lot of situations where a Slaver lock would reset an opponents field, so that the Titan would be more effective and would serve as an essential Time Walk. I have read that thread, played with the deck but was flamed extensively by the Cape Cod Crew (my team). It seemed like I would do something silly like a first Tinker~> Titan and it would run into an Edict or a Swords. Although this may be cute, it just lost to FCG and Dragon, especailly game two (some FCG builds Root Maze SB, so Trinisphere is delayed 3 turns) and the deck lacks Force of Will. I never tested Serum Power, is it good? Looks a bit janky.
-The Hamburgler

I oftentimes Tinker up Jar. ;)

Powder is good.  It's very helpful against things like Dragon and FCG, because your opening hand is vital.  It also means first turn Trinisphere shows up a lot more.  Either way, I split 50/50 with Dragon and FCG (and I have 3 open SB slots that could be anything, btw).

But nevertheless, I was just interested to see if you noticed it.

[Covetous]

On the subject of Chalice of the Void:
I run it in my workshop slaver, and I love it.  I feel that it can help to buoy up some of your bad matches, such as Dragon and FCG.  It can also serve to slow down hulk or other blue-based control, although most successful decks of that type have ways to deal with a chalice for 2.  However, making hulk waste a cunning wish on an oxidize (or R&R) for your chalice isn't a bad thing.  The more I play with chalice, the more I like it.  I play chalice for 2 versus anything ASAP and I can often ride it to victory.  Do you get the chalice often enough when you only run 3 of them?  Chalice also serves as a good card to toss to thirst when you already have a chalice in play (so, multiples are not entirely useless); plus, it can be played for free and welded for something better.  When I first saw slavery, I though that the chalices should be cut for something better (i.e. mana drain), but then I grew to love them.  Of course, I also liked playing Stax, so this shouldn't be surprising.  Anyway I really think that FCG is hard to win without Chalice, but is managable (relatively) with the chalice.  Of course, I also run MD trike, which helps.

[CMass]

I agree with you in principle, Covetous, but in my experience they aren't wasting a wish to nuke the chalice.  They're dropping a hungry monkey and letting him snack on it.

[The Hamburgler]

Rico Suave:
I don't know if you will come back to this topic, so if you don't reply I will post this in one of your topics. I have been playing around with your deck, and have found it will do something like:
Mox, Mox, Mana Crypt, Workshop, Gilded Lotus and then something like Chalice of the Void for two lets say. They would simply Force or Mana Drain it. Then you grin a smug smile and lay down a Sundering Titan, Triskelion etc, and they would simply Mana Drain it, Stifle it, Force it, or sometimes Artifact Mutation. Then you are stuck with a lot of mana, a lot of dead cards (Powder, Chalice sometimes, lands etc) and the slow painful death of coin flipping. Apart from this, Powder would pop up in Memory Jar hands and draw 7 hands, somewhere where I don't like seeing it. It did, however, win games by mulling into a first turn Trinisphere. I like your build, the Wastelands I didn't like however. It seemed to go against the tide of the deck, and generally once a Titan resolved, it hit at least one-two lands, the game was over (assuming a Trinisphere was in play). I think it justifies Wasteland as redundant, even if Mishra's Workshop is a nuisance, most decks can't survive without the colored mana support. The deck has some consistency problems; so taking out Wastelands for other colored sources may help. I don't think Damping Matrix is as strong to run four in the sideboard, as it isn't a source of mana denial, and really doesn't flux Workshop Slaver as configured. It can still lay down fatties and goblins with the best of them, and it can counter yours. If mana denial were the route you are taking with the deck, then maybe something like the Gorilla Shaman you had in there wouldn't be so bad.

BTW: That is the suck you got your cards stolen, if you need anything, I am all open for business   (TMDers get the deals )

Cmass:
True, but in some desperate situations, it does take a Cunning Wish. I think that since 'Tog builds have generally three Cunning Wish, that it will suffice with the amount of tutorage and draw it has. All it takes is to "TURN THE TOG SIDEWAYS" (http://(http://mysite.verizon.net/vze1nz7o/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/togtap.jpg.w300h233.jpg))

Covetous:
It's not like I don't run it. Whenever I sideboard, I bring in Trinisphere (on an impulse decision) when I am going first. If I draw one of each, then I have 6 dead cards. I only run four Thirst for Knowledge, and I hear dead cards are and in vintage.

[Rico Suave]

Rico Suave:
I don't know if you will come back to this topic, so if you don't reply I will post this in one of your topics. I have been playing around with your deck, and have found it will do something like:
Mox, Mox, Mana Crypt, Workshop, Gilded Lotus and then something like Chalice of the Void for two lets say. They would simply Force or Mana Drain it. Then you grin a smug smile and lay down a Sundering Titan, Triskelion etc, and they would simply Mana Drain it, Stifle it, Force it, or sometimes Artifact Mutation. Then you are stuck with a lot of mana, a lot of dead cards (Powder, Chalice sometimes, lands etc) and the slow painful death of coin flipping. Apart from this, Powder would pop up in Memory Jar hands and draw 7 hands, somewhere where I don't like seeing it. It did, however, win games by mulling into a first turn Trinisphere. I like your build, the Wastelands I didn't like however. It seemed to go against the tide of the deck, and generally once a Titan resolved, it hit at least one-two lands, the game was over (assuming a Trinisphere was in play). I think it justifies Wasteland as redundant, even if Mishra's Workshop is a nuisance, most decks can't survive without the colored mana support. The deck has some consistency problems; so taking out Wastelands for other colored sources may help. I don't think Damping Matrix is as strong to run four in the sideboard, as it isn't a source of mana denial, and really doesn't flux Workshop Slaver as configured. It can still lay down fatties and goblins with the best of them, and it can counter yours. If mana denial were the route you are taking with the deck, then maybe something like the Gorilla Shaman you had in there wouldn't be so bad.

Um.  The deck doesn't run Gilded Lotus.  If you suffer from consistency problems, it's most likely because you are playing Gilded Lotus, so cutting Wasteland is not the place to start.

Having Powder pop up into draw-7 hands is fine...but there's only one draw-7 in the deck...

I'm not sure we're on the same page regarding these issues.

Damping Matrix isn't a source of denial, but I find it very difficult to play the mana denial game when going second.  Since you're siding out Welders anyway, you're left with 1 dead card whereas they're left with at least 8 vital cards dead, and more if they bring in Shamans.  I've experienced much more success with Matrix over Shaman.

[The Hamburgler]

Sorry Rico, but I was just reasoning with the list I had been using, and therefore the only one I had substantial knowledge on. I am still undecided between your list or my slavery, there are a lot of differences between the two. I tested your list, however, and comparitively speaking came to some provincial differences between the two. Slaver can play the role of BFD or "the revenge of Rico". If I see a hand alike: Mox, Mana Crypt, Volcanic Island, Tinker, Thirst for Knowledge, Brainstorm and a Ruby then I will get up with Titan early, and do the same thing your deck plays out as. Or I will out-draw control, or play protective against combo. Against aggro I will lay a "timmy" or combo out early. I am circulating one Mindslaver in your build, as against decks like FCG, they can just combo around it. I'm sorry to get my playtesting mixed up with your list.
- The Hamburgler

[Rico Suave]

If I see a hand alike: Mox, Mana Crypt, Volcanic Island, Tinker, Thirst for Knowledge, Brainstorm and a Ruby then I will get up with Titan early, and do the same thing your deck plays out as.

No, the deck plays out by dropping a first turn Trinisphere.  That also helps to deal with this issue:

I am circulating one Mindslaver in your build, as against decks like FCG, they can just combo around it.

It's unnecessary.

[The Hamburgler]

I, or as far as I know, haven't done as much testing as you with your build. I just found in several games against FCG, Dragon and in positions where I am lacking board position over my opponent that a Mindslaver could even the odds, sometimes even reversing them.

I <3 Serum Powder. It is queer how efficient it is, and I think it is a much better replacement for Brainstorm. Great innovation.

On a more relevant note, I am still tweaking on the manabases for Control Slavery, I have two different ones, and it can be chosen by opinion, meta or likeness:

BasicMountain.Manabase:
3 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
1/2 Bloodstained Mire (still testing)
1 Mountain

-or-

4 Polluted Delta
3 Island
4 Volcanic Island
1 Library of Alexandria
3 Underground Sea
1 Flooded Strand
1 Tolarian Academy*

* I am still testing this, I have only had one occurrence where it was rendered useless. We'll just say, " the gorilla's were hungry that day" . It does make artifact destruction and mox monkey effects more devastating.

Any other opinions? Which one do you like best?
-The Hamburgler

[jazzykat]

Serum Powder test results: I am curious about what you tested against. I really like brainstorm, obviously in conjunction with fetches, but also because it lets me dig one card deeper wich is sometimes the FOW I need, besides protecting against duress and stuff.

Also did the fact that it is not an instant force you to make choices that you would rather have let your opponent decide for you?

IE: You have only UU up and you have a brainstorm and a mana drain. You can drain if need be or brainstorm on your opponents end step. With the other card you will have to make a tough decision.

[The Hamburgler]

Jazzykat:
I have no idea what you are talking about, as I was talking to Rico about his new 710-BFD deck. It doesn't use fetches or force, and I would never use powder unless it was in a modified build of Workshop Slavery. I would keep the mana open, if he played something Drain-worthy I would Drain it, no matter what. During my turn, if I didn't draw anything to pump it into then I would Brainstorm into it.
- The Hamburgler

[jazzykat]

BFD aha!, and I thought you were at least talking about a slaver variant (crazy thread topics). Silly me :0

[The Hamburgler]

BFD aha!, and I thought you were at least talking about a slaver variant (crazy thread topics). Silly me :0

  The thread has covered a lot of topics', I would suggest reading the entire topic before replying   .

On that topic, however, Rico just thought that my list was begging to become his 710 varient, and so we got into a disscusion about the differences between the two.
- The Hamburgler

[Toad]

This thread has covered way too many decks and became really hard to follow. I'm closing it for this reason but feel free to start another one if you want to keep the discussion about one of the decks mentionned above, trying to stay more focused this time.

Closed

Toad