[Report] + [Discussion] GP DC, new deck

[Rick James]

I would assume that if anyone played a good U/G Madness that you'd be weak to that, just like Slaver is.  You have not all that much to stop a Wonder-equipped army, and they have a bunch of counterspells that literally just hit annoying creatures (since honestly your draw isn't worth the trouble since it takes time to be effective).

We playtested the matchup vs ug madness and 7/10 had the advantage. UG has no answer to a resolved goblin welder or the titan. Once titan recursion starts, all of madness's lands go away and wonder no longer has an effect. Also the creatures in 7/10 are much larger than those in ug madness. Duplicant is a house in this matchup as well. The only thing madness can do is play null rod, and even that doesn't stop the titan's coming into and leaving play effect.

I'm not sure what you mean by that last line about the draw being slow. The speed at which this deck produces mana generally means the draw spells happen very quickly if not disrupted.

[kirdape3]

I'm not saying it's slow.  I'm saying it's irrelevant since I have counters for the relevant spells - Goblin Welder first and foremost and Sundering Titan second.  Titan is a large man, but 8 mana in the face of mana denial may as well be thirty.  I'm far more afraid of Welder, but even then I have the advantage after board with Stupefying Touch.  Literally the only cards that matter from you are the Welders and the Titans - if you don't have Welder then Duplicant is just a six-mana removal spell.

I'd advise ignoring the draw spells completely (except Timetwister since it messes up Circular Logic) and just mashing Welders with Force of Will.

[Azhrei]

I'm not saying it's slow.  I'm saying it's irrelevant since I have counters for the relevant spells - Goblin Welder first and foremost and Sundering Titan second.  Titan is a large man, but 8 mana in the face of mana denial may as well be thirty.  I'm far more afraid of Welder, but even then I have the advantage after board with Stupefying Touch.  Literally the only cards that matter from you are the Welders and the Titans - if you don't have Welder then Duplicant is just a six-mana removal spell.

I'd advise ignoring the draw spells completely (except Timetwister since it messes up Circular Logic) and just mashing Welders with Force of Will.

My problem with this thread of logic is twofold:

1) "Deck X has trouble with obscure thing no one plays" is pointless. Reap would fuck this deck up, but so what? Who plays Reap?

2) Not counting draw spells is an awful, awful plan. That is seriously like the worst plan ever, EVER. No deck has ever lost because someone disrupted its win, only its engine. Sure, you may counter a Welder... but you're presupposing FoW and presupposing that 7/10 doesn't have 6+ mana on turn two, which is common. Decks that lack a comparable draw/counter element to Hulk are going to be overwhelmed.

[Rick James]

Not counting draw spells is an awful, awful plan. That is seriously like the worst plan ever, EVER. No deck has ever lost because someone disrupted its win, only its engine. Sure, you may counter a Welder... but you're presupposing FoW and presupposing that 7/10 doesn't have 6+ mana on turn two, which is common. Decks that lack a comparable draw/counter element to Hulk are going to be overwhelmed.

Azhrei's analysis is dead-on. This deck has more draw and more must counters than ug madness can contend with. 4 welders, 8 men, 4 loti, not to mention draw7's and tinker. With a deck like ug madness you cannot bet that your own draw/counter element will be sufficient to stop the insanity of 7/10. The only chance you have is mana denial (usually null rod) or hope that you get a god draw and 7/10 gets nothing.

This is a classic example of strategy superiority. 7/10's strategy is superior to everything in the environment except combo (which is faster) and hulk (which can sometimes equal it in brokenness). Therefore your only hope is to disrupt it's strategy, which I admit, is much easier than disrupting something like hulk.

[Smmenen]

I tested a set of games and this deck is much stronger with Force of Wills.

Steve

[yodoblec]

Is it less explosive though? It would seem that it would be since you're throwing a card away. It would obviously be more stable though.

[defector]

I like what you're doing, I tried this:
A thread I started in TMD, I had dissapointing results in tourney, but I think that was due to my a, cutting red and b, having a poor threat density, it should be either 8 or 16, sitting at 12 made it kind of wishy washy, some day it would play ahrd other days it would play soft.  I think I was wrong with mydesign, I'm not convinced that you guys are right, but that fact that a few of us are hitting aggro-combo decks running workshop+titan shows that there is something here.  Good luck with the project, there is something here that is going to get broke.  
dfector
P.S. I'm including my list, I don't know if it will give you guys anything useful or not.

Still Working V 1.1

Mana Base-30-
Mishra's workshop X4
Tolarian Academy
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Tundr X4
Adarkar Waste X2
Flooded Strand X2
Island X1
Wasteland X3
Stripmine
Mana Vault
Sol Ring
Ancient Tomb X1
Gilded Lotus X3
Mishra's Factory X4

The Draw-5-
Standstill X4
Ancestral Recall

The Beatdown-10-
Juggernaut X4
Exalted Angel X1
Sundering Titan X1
Bosh, Iron Golem X1
Memnarch X1
Triskellion X1
Decree of Justice X1

Control-11-
Trinisphere X4
Sphere of Resistance X4
Swords to Plowshares X3

Utility-4-
Mystical Tutor
Enlightened Tutor
Tinker
Balance

[SliverKing]

thanks for the list...   every bit of brainstorming helps, if for no other reason than to find out what DOESNT work.

As for FoW, I think that is very open to debate, however I will grant that having access to FoW makes you much more resiliant, if less consistent.  How important those are in balance will have to be determined in the only way they can be... through extensive mind-numbing testing.

[defector]

I agree, but simply because you ahve blue doesn't mean you have to have fow, I will one day find an optimum bluid build that doesn't have room for force, or so I hope.  Running 3sphere makes it easy not to run force as an active 3 sphere often makes fiorce unfeasible
defector

[kirdape3]

2) Not counting draw spells is an awful, awful plan. That is seriously like the worst plan ever, EVER. No deck has ever lost because someone disrupted its win, only its engine. Sure, you may counter a Welder... but you're presupposing FoW and presupposing that 7/10 doesn't have 6+ mana on turn two, which is common. Decks that lack a comparable draw/counter element to Hulk are going to be overwhelmed.

See: Carlos Romao, 2002 Worlds.  There are only eight spells that matter at all out of the entire Titan deck - 4 Goblin Welder, 3 Sundering Titan, and 1 Duplicant.  (Shooting an army of 2-3 toughness guys with one Triskelion isn't going to do all that much).  Everything else is mana or trying to find those relevant spells.  If I try to stop you from drawing cards, I can't stop you from topdecking one of them and winning anyways.  Besides, if you lack Force of Will you can't really make me expend more counters than you have threats that way.  

8 mana is a ridiculous number to expect to get to in the face of accelerated Null Rod plus Strips plus Force of Will.  If I stop Welders any way I can (including the vastly underappreciated Stupefying Touch) then I'm well more than halfway to winning the game.  It's the same plan as dealing with Workshop Slaver, since well these are the same decks in plan and mostly the same in execution.

[Azhrei]

See: Carlos Romao, 2002 Worlds.  There are only eight spells that matter at all out of the entire Titan deck - 4 Goblin Welder, 3 Sundering Titan, and 1 Duplicant.  (Shooting an army of 2-3 toughness guys with one Triskelion isn't going to do all that much).  Everything else is mana or trying to find those relevant spells.  If I try to stop you from drawing cards, I can't stop you from topdecking one of them and winning anyways.  Besides, if you lack Force of Will you can't really make me expend more counters than you have threats that way.  

8 mana is a ridiculous number to expect to get to in the face of accelerated Null Rod plus Strips plus Force of Will.  If I stop Welders any way I can (including the vastly underappreciated Stupefying Touch) then I'm well more than halfway to winning the game.  It's the same plan as dealing with Workshop Slaver, since well these are the same decks in plan and mostly the same in execution.

And I've had about ten thousand games that were won or lost solely based on the success or failure of resolved draw spells. I think citing one person as evidence against considerable logic falls into the trap of using an exception to refute a generalization.

All I can speak from is experience, and in testing I went 6-1 with Hulk for an overall 7-3 record versus the deck *when it had FoW*, and only a rare handful of times did I counter Titan or Welder. When I did, it was for 8 free mana. By countering the draw spells, or having it have to pitch draw spells to FoW, I was able to outdraw it many cards to few and win through superior resources.

I would agree that countering draw becomes less revelant when Null Rod is in play.

However, you're still falling onto "This deck loses to Obscure.dec!" as an argument, which accomplishes very little unless you start branching into other, more common aspects of the field.

Relevant piece of evidence: the deck is better versus Hulk without FoW.

[Hi-Val]

The problem with only countering their threats is that the player stocks up on two or three welders and craps them all out on one turn. Remember that drawing more cards = winning. I don't think that Carlos Romao is relevant here; it was a strategy only used in the mirror match (VERY IMPORTANT). When playing decks with different threat densities, I don't know if waiting to counter one or two things is the right move. I think that there's serious doubting of the deck's explosiveness going on right now.

Also, when you bring in Stupefying Touches, 7/10 brings in REBs in equal numbers. THAT is what matters.

[kirdape3]

I'm not going to be able to fight their draw spells AND their threats.  If I don't throw down a Null Rod on turn 1 and be about 80% to winning the game right there, then all of a sudden I have to pick one set of problem cards and deal with those.  They're not going to be able to wait until they can crap out 3 Welders in one turn since the clock is 7 turns, and they're not drawing THAT many cards.

That being said, if they have something like Timetwister then you have to counter it because it'll mess up Circular Logic otherwise.  Brainstorm and Thirst should go through since if you waste counters on those then they'll randomly resolve something silly and you die.

Hi-Val: Romao concentrated on knowing what the threats to him were.  Even though it was a mirror match, all he did was counter the threats.  In this deck, with no protection for their spells, that's all I have to do since I'll match my 8 counters plus Brainstorm plus Deep Analysis against their threats.  Also, 8 mana might as well be ten billion against Null Rod shutting off your Moxen and Wastes attacking the Workshops (or better yet, the colored sources to really screw them out of doing anything).

Is Titan a good deck?  Yeah, it is.  So's Slaver.  But that's how I beat both of them - finding the relevant cards and dealing with just those.

[PucktheCat]

The problem with only countering their threats is that the player stocks up on two or three welders and craps them all out on one turn. Remember that drawing more cards = winning. I don't think that Carlos Romao is relevant here; it was a strategy only used in the mirror match (VERY IMPORTANT). When playing decks with different threat densities, I don't know if waiting to counter one or two things is the right move. I think that there's serious doubting of the deck's explosiveness going on right now.  

Just to expand on this point, the other reason not countering draw spells is much worse in T1 than it was 2002 T2 is because in T1 the cards are, well, better.  They are much easier to cast many of in a hurry than the Tog deck's cards were.  Romao knew that it was very difficult for a Tog player to play multiple threats on a turn or back up his threat effectively.  The extra cards weren't relevant because they wouldn't have the time to play them.  That simply isn't the case in T1.

The classic example of this would be Ancestral Recall drawing three cards - a threat, a Force of Will and a random blue card.  That's an Ancestral that should have been countered.  This deck may or may not have Force of Will, but a similar principal is at work when it blitzes with multiple Welders.

Edit: Of course, it could be argued that because of U/G's fast clock the opposing deck won't have time to play all the threats it draws - in that case the countering threats possibility looks like an option.  That would also be a good argument for putting FoW in the deck.

Leo

[Matt]

Another reason Romao's strategy was very deck-specific was that the cards he was worried about were all sorcery-speed (Togs and Upheavals) and thus as the nonactive player, he had the definite upper hand in any counterwar over a three- or six-mana spell.

[jpmeyer]

Really, the reason that ignoring draw works here is because Force of Will isn't in the deck.  Without Force of Will, you don't have to worry about them needing to accumulate cards to pitch.  You don't have to worry about them accumulating threats because other than Welder, the threats are very expensive so it's really hard for them to be able to play more than 2 in a turn.

That said, there are still situations were if say I don't have a Null Rod out, I'll counter a Gilded Lotus.

Another reason Romao's strategy was very deck-specific was that the cards he was worried about were all sorcery-speed (Togs and Upheavals) and thus as the nonactive player, he had the definite upper hand in any counterwar over a three- or six-mana spell.

This is really relevant here since you still are only worrying about sorcery-speed spells that cost a ton of mana.

[yodoblec]

I don't believe that the FoW is necissary. It throws off the speed a little bit and puts you back. It was just like Wasteland or Strip Mine.

[Godot]

In my testing against this deck I've found that  if you can weather the storm in the early game and deal with the 2 or 3 threats it can produce in the first couple turns then the game is half won.  The deck runs 29 mana sources so once 7-10 goes into topdeck mode then its basically game over.  The opposing deck doesnt even need an especially imposing clock considering the amount of damage that 7-10 inflicts on itself.

In playtesting against this I started out trying to disrupt the engine and promptly got my ass handed to me.  After changing strategies and ignoring basically everything except Welder, Memnarch, Titan, Tinker and occaisionally Chalice the results changed dramatically.  If you can survive long enough to Strip/destroy a key colored mana source and establish some clock for all intents and purposes, you've won.

Puckthecat:  Just to expand on this point, the other reason not countering draw spells is much worse in T1 than it was 2002 T2 is because in T1 the cards are, well, better.

The strength of the draw spells are determined by the strength of the cards they draw.  In 7-10s case the majority of the time its only going to be drawing more mana sources or more draw spells.  Its too light on threats to make drawing more cards as threatening as other decks can.  Drawing cards in Tog is dangerous since the more cards it draws, the closer you are to death.  The strength of the card itself doesnt necessarily matter.  In Draw7, even excess Moxen or Brainstorms up the storm count.  7-10 has too many dead/weak cards and too few threats to make arbitrary card drawing dangerous.

[Tempe]

The Difference between Aggro and Combo

According to the test of threat density, this deck doesn't really have enough to "go aggro." The reason control beats it is because it has no protection, and too little threats. Literally, a control deck will always win if they draw cards and counter your 10 or so threats. Add to that that the threats are expensive enough (except for welder) that you can not play more than 1 or 2 a turn.

I would either add disruption/protection in Force of Will/Duress, or add more threats.

--Tempe

[Hi-Val]

These decks do not exist in a void. Keep in mind that when you bring in Stupefying Touch, the 7/10 player brings in REBs and Rack and Ruin/Pulse. You all seem to be ignoring this key factor. A Null Rod can quickly be answered and that Force you're holding onto to stop Welder gets blasted. Game, set, match.

The advantage of Madness is that it can crank out fast threats. Doing so requires mana expenditure which makes Logic and Rod harder to cast, so you are forced into a situation of triage. Over time, 7/10 WILL win.