[Deck] Dueling in the Ice Cave

[Windfall]

Hello all --

I have been dying to post something here at TMD for awhile now.  As we all know, posts have been dying out and threads have been losing their fire for a bit, and I have been afraid to write another casual thread for a bit for fear of losing my membership or something like that.  Truth be told, I've stopped playing in tourneys for the time being, though I still go to them.  I just don't like the game when it's one or two decks and nothing more.  Psychatog and decks to beat Psychatog.  It gets old.

So, instead of contributing to the serious Type 1 forum, I'm going to give this a shot and write another thread for a deck that I really enjoy playing, but is not meant for very competitive play.  The idea behind my casual decks, however, is that they could compete, and winning with one at a tourney is always a blast.

I hope some of you have read my Fleetfoot Panther thread that I posted months ago.  If you know of it, you'll know what kind of casual player I am and that I take my casual decks seriously.  This thread is meant to be serious, and I will take any suggestions that people throw out there.  My Panther deck improved a lot due to quality suggestions and I hope the same can happen here.

The deck I am proposing uses a combination of cards that work well together, like any deck should.  However, the main idea was to make a deck where [card]Ice Cave[/card] can show its true potential.

At first look, it looks too symmetrical and expensive.  Though I must agree with you that it is expensive, the card can easily be turned into a hard lock without the help of anything but mana sources.  This looks too good to ignore, so I tried my best to come up with something that could trap players in the Ice Cave and win through total control of the game.

Combos using Ice Cave were the first thing that I tried to think of.  [card]Land Equilibrium[/card], [card]Pulse of Llanowar[/card], and [card]Celestial Dawn[/card] came to mind, but I realized that the best bet would be to just use lands that produce mana of various colors, or any color, and free up slots in the main deck.  Dedicating slots to clunky combo pieces that are not good on their own is terrible, so I decided Ice Cave + Mana was good enough.

Before I go into the deck list and card choices, I want to make a few things clear.  Ice Cave changes the rules of Magic a bit.  Suddenly, more expensive cards are more useful, since low casting cost spells are very easy to counter under an Ice Cave.  The deck wants to play lots of Land, so I knew early on that [card]Exploration[/card] would be a key card.  When Ice Cave resolves, Land drops become more important than ever, and Moxen become useless since they can be countered for zero.  As such, I opted to go with a heavy land build with Exploration instead of the standard SoLoMoxen.  Though Lotus is too good not to play, I left the Moxen out for a Land based acceleration method.


The List and Card Choices
//The Icy Prison 12
3 Ice Cave
1 Sunder
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will

//Draw 7
1 Gush
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Sift

//Utility 4
3 Cunning Wish
1 Regrowth

//Creatures 6
3 Ravenous Baloth
3 Scragnoth

//Acceleration 10
4 Exploration
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Black Lotus
1 Time Walk

//Land 21
4 City of Brass
3 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Tropical Island
3 Island
2 Forest

Some cards I am going to skip explaining (Ancestral, Regrowth, etc.) because we all know what they do and why they're here.

Ice Cave was the card that inspired the deck, so naturally I'm playing with it!  The great thing about this card is that if you can resolve it with mana open, you're in great shape because after this is on your side, you don't have to do anything but sit back and wait for your win condition to appear.  More on this later.

Sunder is one of my favorite cards for the artwork and the effect.  I always thought an instant speed mass land removal spell would be powerful.  Unfortunately, it's 3UU casting cost makes it tough to force through.  More than one maindecked would be too many I think, and since it's an instant, I can Wish for them if I need to.  Under an Ice Cave, Sunder is simply a game-ender.  With Explorations, I can play more land than my opponent, and counter everything he tries to do from then on with my land advantage.

Mana Drain and Force of Will are staple components of control decks.  Mana Drain is huge in this deck because it runs many high casting cost spells.  Drain is useful for playing the creatures, the Ice Cave, or the Sifts.  You will almost never suffer mana burn from a Drain because of the juicy Mana Drain sinks in this deck.  Force of Will is just one of those cards that a type 1 control deck needs.  No further discussion is needed here I hope.

Gush is a great draw spell in a deck with four Explorations.  It functions as mana acceleration due to the fact that I can replay the lands untapped.  If I have an Ice Cave in play, it's a nice thing to do on my opponent's end step for free, to tempt him into tapping 5 mana to counter it if I want to play stuff on my turn.

Fact or Fiction is questionable, but I figured if I'm going to run Sift, I should run this in place of Sift #4.  The thing is, I like Sift so much I didn't want to run 3, so I ran 4 and this too.  It's great for the same reasons Gush is good in that it's 4 mana under an Ice Cave and can be cast on my opponent's end step.

Sift is the one I'm going to get the flames for right?  I hope not, because this card is really strong.  It says "draw 3 cards" does it not?  It's good with Ice Cave too because it's "expensive."  I was debating replacing these with Concentrate but the problem is you can Drain into a Sift so much easier than you can Concentrate.  With this deck's Birds and Explorations, you can usually hard cast Sift turn 2 if you want to and it's not a bad idea most of the time.  Against Aggro these are great to help you dig through your deck faster and because you know they won't get Mana Drained.  I do admit you have to be careful using them vs. control, but they can always be pitched to Force of Will too.

Cunning Wish is very strong.  When I first designed this deck, I wanted to play with 4, but I later decided that was too many especially after I added the Baloths to help against Aggro.  Originally, I just had Scragnoth and I was weak vs. fast aggro.  Wish allows me to hate out Artifacts, Enchantments, and Creatures without using precious maindeck space.  We all know this though!

Ravenous Baloth was my latest idea to help against aggro decks.  Without him, in combination with the Cities of Brass, aggro can be a serious problem.  I want to run 4, but I cannot decide what to cut for him.  I'm not sure if I need 4, but I think it'd be nice to have in those rough matchups.  Aside from the life gain, he's a massive 4/4 that blocks and kills most creatures, and is a solid threat regardless.  Note that Scragnoth is a Beast and can turn into 4 life in a tight situation.  It's pretty easy to get a second turn Baloth in most cases.  Under an Ice Cave, it's GG in the casting cost makes it harder for most decks to counter using the Cave, so it's better than say, Erhnam Djinn (another card I tested, and I didn't really think he was that bad either).

Scragnoth is one of my favorite pieces of the deck.  I was thinking the whole time that I needed a win condition that I could cast under and Ice Cave and still have it be useful on its own.  It took a bit of thinking, but I did eventually think of Scragnoth and Blurred Mongoose for the uncounterable ability.  Since they will always resolve, Ice Cave doesn't stop them at all.  The Mongoose is too small I think, but Scragnoth is pretty big at 3/4.  Not only that, but he has Protection from Blue, which makes him amazing in the Psychatog matchup.  If you can stop Berserk, One Scragnoth will stop the Tog player.  One more and you can start attacking with one and eventually win.  This is very easy to do if you can resolve an Ice Cave.  All of Hulk's draw and countermagic doesn't do a thing vs. this guy!

Birds of Paradise are accelerants that also provide mana of any color, which is great with Ice Cave.  Since I'm not using Moxen, I need to speed up my deck as much as I can.  Explorations do a great job, and the Birds just give me that much more potential for turn 1 plays that speed me up a bit.  With the expensive components of this deck, I need all the help I can get.  They also provide Edict protection against Black decks, allowing you to keep your Baloth around so you can keep beating for 4 each turn.

Explorations are psuedo Moxen, since they accelerate me by one, though they don't do so the same way.  Land cannot be countered and it is usually harder to destroy than Artifact mana is.  On the downside, casing it costs one mana, so it's like Birds of Paradise in that it takes a turn to feel the acceleration.  Exploration is a key card for this deck, and the problem I am facing is that I am happy with just one most of the time.  But I want 1 every game and early on!  So, I really want to keep 4 in the deck, though I also want to drop down to 3 to make room for another Baloth or something else since it's not so hot late game especially if I already have one in play.

City of Brass and Undiscovered Paradise give me 5 color mana with small drawbacks.  The Baloths' life gain is useful to recover from painful early Cities, and Exploration makes Undiscovered Paradise's drawback pretty much inconsequential.  Combined with the Birds, you should always have the mana you need to cast spells, and at the same time you'll have any color mana to counter anything under an Ice Cave.

Strip Effects are very useful here for two reasons.  One being that I play with Exploration, so they don't cost me a land drop to use, gaining massive tempo.  Secondly, Ice Cave.  I can destroy uncounterable threats (man lands) and also cut off colors from multi-color decks using dual lands for mana.  Against Hulk it's common for me to cut off Green, both preventing Deed and Berserk but also to help me resolove my own Green spells even under a symmetrical Ice Cave.

The Sideboard is still a working project, though right now I am using just a collection of 15 cards that I might Wish for.  Since I have not spent a whole lot of time on this deck so far, it's just a work in progress.  I might actually make a sideboard, but for now I just have some good Instants set aside in sleeves.  Sunder, Creature hate, Artifact hate, Enchantment removal, some random goodies like AK, Coffin Purge, Stilfe, etc.

So, everyone, please comment on this.  I don't want any comments that are not thought out and backed up with justification, so please keep the replies serious - I am not just playing around with my casual decks; I make them and play them because they are fun (being different) but I also think they have potential.  Those of you that see that potential and enjoy my casual threads are the people I am trying to reach here.

     ~Mark B.

[CmdrSam]

Probably I am missing something, but why 4 Explorations and no Fastbond? It seems like Fastbond would be especially good in conjunction with your Sunder.

--Sam L-L

[Ephraim]

Aside from your stated concerns about the deck being weak against fast aggro, I agree with CmdrSam that Fastbond deserves consideration over Exploration. Furthermore, with only 21 lands in the deck, I don't think that 4 of them are necessary. I agree, you want to get your hands on them early, but since additional copies don't help and you are drawing a lot of cards, I think you're often going to end up with at least one dead Exploration/Fastbond in your hand.

I am not going to flame you for Sift, but I am going to question why you chose it over Deep Analysis. Although Deep Analysis is slower, it has the same casting cost "advantage" under Ice Cave as Sift and will eventually dig four cards deep and require you to discard nothing at all. Once again, the only concern is how this endangers your matchup versus aggro.

Wasteland is a big concern for me. If even your casual playgroups heavily use non-basic lands, then it isn't an issue. However, when I think about my playgroup, while I may occasionally see a City of Brass or a Glimmervoid, for the most part, it's all basic lands. I'm not sure what solution I would suggest, if your casual metagame is largely without non-basics. Perhaps just to replace the Wastelands with more basic Islands and Forests. The budget builder in me wants to replace them with Felwar Stones, which at least guarantee that you'll have the same mana as your opponent, for countering his spells.

I think Scragnoth is ideal for this deck. However, I think you need four of him. Under an Ice Cave, he's your only guaranteed spell, which means he's really your only reliable kill mechanism. Failure to draw this guy, particularly when your Ice Cave has been turned against you, is going to be your death knell.

Concerning Cunning Wish, does your casual playgroup also use sideboards? If you do not, I'd suggest not scrimping in the slightest. Fill up a few binder pages with potentially useful instants and drag them around with you.

A final question: Would you mind if I budget-tize this deck and post that version in this thread? It looks like it's really fun to play, but Tropical Islands, Mana Drains, and Force of Wills aren't even in my competetive deck budget.

[Windfall]

Re: Fastbond and Exploration
I did consider a Fastbond over Exploration number 4, but the thing is, with a Fastbond, every Exploration becomes a dead card, and since I do play additional land almost every turn (think about Undiscovered Paradise), I cannot afford to take additional damage each turn, especially with the Cities of Brass and the suggested Deep Analysis.  Exploration is already a tough call as a four-of, since additional copies are dead in hand sometimes.  If Fastbond were unrestricted (not saying it should be by any means!), or if I ran tutor magic, I would probably play it over Exploration, but for now just putting in 1 Fastbond would not really help me any more than the Explorations do.  Note that Fastbond will still damage me for each land I play regardless of any Explorations I have on the table.

The 4th Exploration will probably get cut, but I have not done enough testing with 3 to decide for sure if the deck works well without the 4th.  I'll let everyone know on this as I test the deck a bit more.

Re: Deep Analysis
I considered this card as well as the draw engine.  The problem I found is that it only gets me 2 cards the first time I cast it.  Then, I'll probably have to wait around a turn to cast it again and the three life will be a problem against the wrong types of decks.  Sift doesn't hurt me and I dig three cards at once, which does make a big difference.  Most of the time I like to Sift into multiple mana sources and play them all with my Explorations.  This way, the sorcery speed doesn't hurt me as much since I can then play a couple of untapped Blue sources with Mana Drain in hand.  I'm not sure I could cast D.A. as aggresively as Sift because I am not as likely to draw into one or more lands and a counter.  It's still worth a shot, but I decided on Sift for that reason.  The deck lacks Moxen because Ice Cave counters them all, so I need faster cards.  As you said, D.A. is slower, and that concerns me in my metagame.

Re: Wasteland
For sure, if your groups/metagame does not have non-basics, then don't run Wasteland.  The only thing you'll have to look out for are manlands because they don't care about Ice Cave.  However, in my group, nonbasics are as common as Lightning Bolt was in fourth edition starter packs.  Wasteland is great where I play for the reasons I mentioned in the original post.  If they are not useful to you, more basic lands are the way to go, but I'd still keep 1 Strip Mine.

Re: Fellwar Stone
This is an intereting idea and I kind of like it.  I am tempted to find room for them, allowing me to cut the Cities of Brass down a bit, but I think there are two problems with them.  First, they are Artifact mana, so I suddenly become vulnerable to the hate that is always around to stop it.  There are a couple of powered players at my school, myself included.  So, people do play with Artifact hate and Null Rod, etc.  I kind of like how my deck here is immune to Gorilla Shaman hate and such.  Secondly, it is 2 colorless, which is slow in the early game and easy to counter under the Ice Cave in the late game.  I will not dismiss this card, and if I do decide to change the deck around a little bit, it may find a place.  For now, I think Birds are better.  In your "budget" version it would be strong, but I would not cut lands for them.  Maybe you could take out 1 land, but you should play at least 20.

Re: Scragnoth
Three is fine for me.  I don't really prefer him to the Baloth against aggro for obvious reasons.  His casting cost means he's not useful until the mid-late game since I don't want to tap out for a 3/4 unless I'm playing against aggro and I am not in danger of getting out drawn/countered, etc.  Two was not enough, so I added a third and I have been happy with that number.  I don't think I need a fourth.

Re: Cunning Wish
Yes, we do play with Sideboards.  At first my whole collection was my "sideboard" since I do play with the Wish and it's casual.  The problem is, people did complain about that a bit, and I can sort of understand.  That's why I just picked 15 cards and said "there, now shut the fuck up" becuase I was sick of people giving me shit about my Wishes.  If your playgroup does not care, by all means tote your collection with you, it's a great way to always have the answer you need =).

Re: Budget Version
I don't care what you do to this deck.  I am happy to have reached one person already and you are free to do as you like.  My ideas are meant to be spread and the more people that start playing original fun decks, the better I feel about my creations.

I did play this deck a long time ago when I bought my first box of Apocolypse and pulled an Ice Cave, though I only played one Cave and the deck was very different.  It did use Fellwar Stone actually, which is why I'm surprised I never thought of it in remaking the deck.  Back then, I had no power, just dual lands.  I also did not have Mana Drain.  Force of Will is not too expensive, and I think this deck needs it because it likes to tap out a lot.  A budget version would not work where I play becuase people have gradually gotten richer and spent more on Magic, getting power, Mana Drains, etc.  Thus, I have too and my decks just get stronger as everyone else gains more powerful Type 1 cards.  Play with what you have and with what would work where you play, and you'll be fine.  It sounds like you'll be fine if your playgroup does not have nonbasics or Force of Will, which are in almost every deck where I play.  Hence, I have to deal with them.  Good luck!

     ~Mark B.