Single Card Discussion: Razormane Masticore, better than the

[rvs]

It actually boils down to that, the new Core is better in decks with Workshops like TnT, since it beats down better, and you don't have to find a way to pay mana (which workshops can't pay for ofcourse) to kill stuff. I'd say it's objectively better than Masticore in Workshop-Aggro. In decks like Mono-Blue that want to run Core, or that USED to run core (like old standard decks TE+US block), they would rather just run the Masticore, since it's less mana, and regens.

In the end, I think it boils down to that the new core is in fact an AGGRO creature, while the old core is in fact a CONTROL creature.

[Eddie]

I think it will be a great replacement of FTK in the drain slaver sideboard. It will be a great help in the aggro matchup. The beatdown with your fat works better with it.

I know that discarding a card is bad when playing a control deck. But it is not that bad when you can discard another heavy artifact to weld in. And if you no longer need it, just let it die and weld it back in later. I've tested a little, and it's not bad at all. Of course, I should do more testing to see if it does the trick.

[rvs]

@Eddie: It seems good on paper, but it's actually not, since you'll most likely be facing hate from Aggro decks game1 already against artifacts, and game2 FOR SURE. FTK is a 2 for 1 against Aggro. Shoot 1, Block one to death (or attract a burn spell). The Core will probably just be Mutated, Rack and Ruined, and whatnot.

[Shadow Ninja]

Keep in mind that everything they throw at Masticore Mk. 2 is another spell they're not using to deal with your Slaver recursion stuff, your Welder (in the case of StP or burn), Memnarch, and the other various game winners Slaver runs.

[JuJu]

The Best Thing I can see this new RazorMane Masticore doing is making the U/G Madness matchup much, much better. the Masticore is welderable which makes countering it much worse. The only artifact spells U/G Madness has is Oxidize. Also, it has Null Rod which makes Pentavus, Memnarch and almost every artifact less effective. I'm thinking of cutting the Triks in the Workshoop board for these, or go 1 Trisk, 1 Razormane.

[Eddie]

@MoreFling: Yeah, you are probably right. With the popularity of slavery decks, most aggro have more means to get rid of artifacts than creatures. FTK is a bigger problem than the masticore for most decks.

@Shadow Ninja: FTK will attract only anti-creature while the masticore can be dealt with by other means, leaving the welder more vulnerable.

I'll still do some additional testing. I'll use the alarm when it does work.

[MaxxMatt]

I think that the equal rate of "Fire/Ice-Like" spells and the "Naturalize-like" spells really distort the argument about comparing FTK and this NewMasta. They are both easily killable and most of all postside.

The argument about the "nature" of this NewMasta is really intriguing. I agree with Rudy that it fit perfectly Aggro decks. It is Big, Nasty and really difficult to kill without specific artifact removals. And it damages the opponent more and more than the Old Masta. I think that a good Monobrown and a good TnT deck could try to fit a couple of them in the maindeck. It kill enemy and Bolt the Opponent without using mana. IMHO the lack of mana investiment after the resolution of the spell put this card in a higher level than the old masta.

[yodoblec]

The old Masticore will be better. The regeneration ability will be key with slaver running around forcing lots of artifact hate.

[Matt]

[Ric_Flair]

Do you guys think that RMM is better than the original in all formats or just Vintage?  I would agree that is better in Vintage, but I am not sure about Extended.  I also think that the original is better the greater the format's emphasis is on weenies.  RMM can knock off fatties like nobodies business, pinging even a 7 toughness creature makes attacking with it stupid (assuming RMM does not attack).  But in a field of weenies, supposing Vintage goes back that way at some time, I think the original would be better.  Either way, right now this guy is better in Vintage.

[DEA]

you ping during your draw phase, not your opponent's turn
so basically RMM makes it stupid for fatties to block
unless of course, the ass is very big, like a certain titan out there

[Klep]

Oxidize pic

You know what? Psychatog is vulnerable to Swords to Plowshares, Red Elemental Blast, and even Smother.  Somehow, that hasn't stopped him from being the best creature in the game.

Today's moral: Just becuase a card has an answer doesn't mean it isn't good.

[Dr. Sylvan]

Psychatog is a one-turn win. RmM is four. The vulnerability gap is immense, particularly considering that Hulk decks usually can reduce the gap to zero by Time Walking.

Besides, Matt was pointing out that the regeneration is, thanks to Darksteel, a much less relevant ability in deciding whether the old or new Masticore is superior. Not that the card is bad. That artifact regeneration is bad.

[Swanky]

I feel as though RmM will not be as prevalent in Type 2 due to the sheer amount of artifact removal.  5 mana as opposed to 0-2 in Affinity is a pretty big investment when said investment could be Oxidized/Shattered/What-have-you in short order.  It could be another 1-of in Tooth and Nail decks, but it's rather hard to say.

Besides, Matt was pointing out that the regeneration is, thanks to Darksteel, a much less relevant ability in deciding whether the old or new Masticore is superior. Not that the card is bad. That artifact regeneration is bad.

So much for Clay Statue.dec. *Pout*

[jpmeyer]

Um, Matt was referring to the post above his where someone said "the original is better because it regenerates."

[Klep]

Besides, Matt was pointing out that the regeneration is, thanks to Darksteel, a much less relevant ability in deciding whether the old or new Masticore is superior. Not that the card is bad. That artifact regeneration is bad.

Well if that was his point than I shall redirect my statement at people who make the point I thought he was making.  And if you don't like my Tog example, Diabolic Edict was an answer to Morphling in his heyday, but that didn't make Morphling bad.  Psychatog made Morphling bad.

[Rico Suave]

There is a difference.  Edicting a Morphling is a 1:1 trade.  Removal on the new Masticore is a 3-5:1 trade.

The card requires a tremendous investment, and removal will not only deprive you of the card itself, but of the investment too.

[theorigamist]

Rico, that's a somewhat unfair way of looking at it.  You assume the investment, but you ignore the potential creatures you may have cleared, which tips your ratio heavily against the new Core.  If you are going to put in the 3-5 cards investment you've made, then the other side of the ratio should include the potential 2-3 creatures you've cleared, in addition to the amount of damage you deal (by attacking) or prevent (by threatening to block).

[Matt]

Um, Matt was referring to the post above his where someone said "the original is better because it regenerates."

THANK YOU. I've been one of the first supporters of this card, so please, try telling me how I think it's bad.

Anyway, yes, my intention was that if people are going to start bringing in artifact hate, it's going to be of a kind that hates on the old Core equally or more than the new one (Oxidize hits both, Null Rod hits only the old one). RM is less vulnerable to artifact-hate, and more vulnerable to the oldest creature-removal spells - Lightning Bolt and so forth. That makes it a brilliant addition to Vintage.

[Smmenen]

U/R Fish has no way to deal with this card.  Only 4 Factories can actually block it.  The First Strike is simply amazing.  

Steve

[Pern]

Viashino Heretic blows him up just fine.
You'll have to Stifle him once if the 'Core got there first.
Rack and Ruin ought to work OK, as well.
Neither of those is sure to work on Masticore Classic.

[Machinus]

I know workshop/welder decks will have no problem with the cost, but really 5cc is a lot more than 1cc away from 4cc. Sure, lots of removal prevents regeneration, but the 4cc + 2cc regen makes Classic (thanks Pern) available to a lot more decks. Doesn't anyone else think the jump from 4 to 5 is a concern here?

[EDIT] Lol, how did your post get above mine?

[Jacob Orlove]

I know workshop/welder decks will have no problem with the cost, but really 5cc is a lot more than 1cc away from 4cc. Sure, lots of removal prevents regeneration, but the 4cc + 2cc regen makes Classic (thanks Pern) available to a lot more decks. Doesn't anyone else think the jump from 4 to 5 is a concern here?

But 4 + 2 is 6. If you cast the classic core as soon as you get 4 mana, it's actually more vulnerable than the new one.

And 5 really isn't that much for workshop decks, or control decks that want to drain into him. I don't know where else either would see play anyway.

edit: apparently I have magical powers. They're being tested in the Sui forum.

[DEA]

wtf.dec came first
now we get wtf.post  :lol:

[kill doug]

what about this card in type 2 do you think it will have any impact

[rvs]

what about this card in type 2 do you think it will have any impact

We simply don't know, and don't care. Read the forum title, please!

[Prism]

now that we've come to a conclusion about razormane vs original masticore more or less, how does razormane compare with flametongue kavu?

sure, flametongue costs 4 nonworkshop mana, but it has an immediate impact on the board and doesn't eat a card during upkeep (although welding it in makes this less relevant for razormane).

i think the first point is important, because i'd just hate to hardcast razormane only to have it oxidised etc, before it gets to shoot anything.

thoughts?

[Machinus]

Really, Razor and FtK play completely different roles, I don't think it would be useful to compare them. Razor is a slow workshop threat that the opponent must get rid of before it eats all of their blockers and then their face. FtK is immediate blocker removal that can help an aggro plan. You would not be in a position to choose between them.

[psyburat]

The only thing I don't like about this Masticore variant is the lack of regeneration, which will make it both Naturalize and Oxidize bait, instead of just the later.  Sure, this could be said about many of the creatures, but simply because there is no need to have mana open for him to ping doesn't make him that much better.  The regeneration was what made the original one broken, which is why it wasn't included on the update.

And if anyone said this before me, no, I didn't read the rest of the thread.  I wanted to include my unbiased opinion before I was shifted from my position by someone else's thoughts.

[Matt]

Yes, that was already covered, and the answer is: dodging Null Rod is more important for type one (and especially for the decks likely to include RMM) than dodging Naturalize.