Single Card Discussion: Razormane Masticore, better than the

[Smmenen]

The picture is awesome, take a look at the card:
tm" target="_blank">http://www.magicdeckvortex.com/mdv's_fifth_dawn_visual_spoiler.h tm

A few things.  First of all, this card will prove, I think, of higher utility than the original Masticore in this format.  It is tailor made for Workshop decks becuase it doesn't require an activation and yet has many tricks with Welders - you can discard a key artifact, use the bolt, then weld it out for something nasty, and then bring it back on the following upkeep to do damage on the draw without having to discard again!  

I think this will be first, a massively used SB card.  The original Masticore has dissapated from use except in narrow situations.  This guy is better in TnT I think than the original and is worth maindeck slots in other decks.  He is just really good.  

Thoughts?

Steve

[Klep]

I agree. This guy is nuts.  5 mana is trivial for something running Workshops, and this kind of utility in a deck with welders that can avoid the drawback is amazing.   The big question is, will it make a splash outside of Workshop decks?

[Shadow Ninja]

Another good outlet for getting fat to the yard for Welder, creature kill, and a 5/5 first striker for 5 all come together to make this guy pretty frickin sweet.  It seems he'd be good in both TnT and the new 7/10 split deck, as another solid body with good abilities and little actual drawback.  

Methinks I will have to pick up a playset when FD comes out to try him in the aforementioned decks.

[Swanky]

I agree with you on all points, essentially.  I can easily see this card used in Workshop decks to great affect.  While he lacks the ability to take out numerous small gentlemen in one sweep like Triskelion, he is definitely possessed of a degree of "face-smashery" that Workshop decks will relish in.  TnT, having a decent draw engine, will definitely profit in running this prickly pear.

I hope the printing of this card doesn't elicit cries of "Aggro is doomed!", as it seems to have the potential to bring about those ideas.  While he can't poke away at numerous little guys in a turn as his lesser-used ancestor can, he can swing a baseball bat at the vital areas of creatures every turn.  

This kid has a bright future in the business.

[Sandster]

Null Rod doesn't look so tough now...

Didn't this appear on the front of a pre-con?  That would be insane...

[The Hamburgler]

Most likely a new tool for TnT, it has first strike, which is cool, so it can take care of Juggernaut, Su-Chi, Pentavus etc. The three damage isn't so hot, considering the one damage is more of made to kill Goblin Welder, Gorilla Shaman etc. So it may be unnecessary, but still has a home in TnT or "Tubby Stax", where a five damage "Timmy" that kills any blockers in it's path sounds a just decision to play.
- The Hamburgler

[Shadow Ninja]

This guy does have some cons, though, like never being effective against enemy Welders (they give you a mox or something back) and Tog.  He will, however, make it difficult for your opponent to get a Welder active if he didn't have one active already.  

He also becomes kinda useless against other workshop decks once they drop their fat.  This guy has nothing on Sundering Titan when it comes to the red zone.  Considering the fact that workshop aggro seems to be arising as the new face of aggro in T1, this could be a considerable detriment.

[Smmenen]

Most likely a new tool for TnT, it has first strike, which is cool, so it can take care of Juggernaut, Su-Chi, Pentavus etc. The three damage isn't so hot, considering the one damage is more of made to kill Goblin Welder, Gorilla Shaman etc. So it may be unnecessary, but still has a home in TnT or "Tubby Stax", where a five damage "Timmy" that kills any blockers in it's path sounds a just decision to play.
- The Hamburgler

The three could be good against cards like Wild Mongrel, FTK, Aquamoeba and Fish since Null Rod doesn't stop it and it has First Strike.

Steve

[Shadow Ninja]

Most likely a new tool for TnT, it has first strike, which is cool, so it can take care of Juggernaut, Su-Chi, Pentavus etc. The three damage isn't so hot, considering the one damage is more of made to kill Goblin Welder, Gorilla Shaman etc. So it may be unnecessary, but still has a home in TnT or "Tubby Stax", where a five damage "Timmy" that kills any blockers in it's path sounds a just decision to play.
- The Hamburgler

The three could be good against cards like Wild Mongrel, FTK, Aquamoeba and Fish since Null Rod doesn't stop it and it has First Strike.

Steve

Null Rod not stopping the damage seems pretty key, now that you mention it.  That makes this new Masticore very good in my opinion, especially if you're prone to run decks like Fish and UG Mad in your metagame.  Creatures that aren't nullified in their usefulness by Null Rod and can still be reasonably hardcast are pretty good, I hear.

[Rico Suave]

This guy does have some cons, though, like never being effective against enemy Welders (they give you a mox or something back) and Tog.  He will, however, make it difficult for your opponent to get a Welder active if he didn't have one active already.  

Yes, but this is also assuming he can Weld your creature immediately, which is not always the case since you may not have an artifact in the grave (or you may dump something even more dangerous, you choose what to discard, which would not be beneficial for them to weld into).  This is of course assuming they have an active Welder.

Additionally, an X/5 body requires Tog to be up at 25 damage.  If Masticore was on the board before Tog, then it's 3 damage to the Tog, eating up 2(4) possible points.  In other words, if you have this guy on the table, your opponent's Tog will have to jump up to 29 points of damage with Berserk.  It's slightly more math than what Tog players are used to.

Just saying it's not as bad as the impression you were giving made it out to be.

[HuntedWumpus]

As Hamburgler said, this guy cannot establish the total creature control like Masticore can. Masticore can totally control the board of little guys, this guy cannot. He has alot of potential, but no as high as mindslaver or pent. I think he will see some play though, its hard to pass up a 5/5 first striking artifact with a solid ability.

[Shadow Ninja]

Why would you get a draw step with your opponent having a Tog on the table?  I'm no expert with Tog, but I was under the impression that you were to play it only when you were ready to win.  I guess that gives you one draw step to ping away some of his hand or graveyard, but he'll also have that knowledge already calculated into his kill strike.  Of course, there's always Time Walk, which, if cast, means you never get to ping any of their Tog food away.  If I'm not looking at Tog in the right light, then I apologize, I've never been too good with it.

Your point about the Welder is valid in most situations, but it's still a concern.  There will be times when a Mox gets blown up by a Shaman or Karn or something, and then your Masticore takes a trip to the 'yard.  However, it's not as big a problem as I originally thought.

[Toad]

As Hamburgler said, this guy cannot establish the total creature control like Masticore can. Masticore can totally control the board of little guys, this guy cannot.

The flaw in that reasonning is that you are assuming you want a total creature control. Sure, Masticore can sweep the board from 1/1 dudes, but why would you care about 1/1 dudes if your opponent is dead? That new Masticore is a 5/5 First Striker, which is awesome. It's a strong turn 2 play for a Workshop deck. Furthermore, the ping ability does not require mana, which is nice because Mishra's Workshop messes up with your sweeping plan.

Just imagine your opponent is low on life, and has Rootwalla and Arrogant Wurm on the board. With Masticore, if you need to clear the board, you need 6 manas to ping the Lizard, then 2 mana to regenerate the 'Core after the Arrogant blocks. Here you just kill both dudes for free.

[johnstown713]

Man, I thought wizards wasn't going to reprint awsome cards like Masticore.  Instead they reprint them and make them better.

Johnstown713

[riggy]

I'd like to add Meddling Mage and Angel to Smennen's list of creatures it's good against. EBA was a hard matchup for me (what with Damping Matrix and Mage) and I think this will definitely help even the board a bit.

Why would you get a draw step with your opponent having a Tog on the table? I'm no expert with Tog, but I was under the impression that you were to play it only when you were ready to win.

I can't say for other areas, but the people I've played against will drop a tog ASAP because it forces you as the opponent to play more aggressively and try to find a direct answer for tog. It screws with the opposing player's game plan, making them play differently. That's just my take on it, though.

[Nantuko Rice]

No workshop rants.
-Jacob

[Hyperion]

Razorback Masticore is very well-designed  from a Vintage perspective in that it is a much more balanced card than Masticore, while also being better than the original in the current format. I think they did a great job with this card.

With that said, I hate Razorback Masticore because it's another powerful artifact creature that only Workshop decks will be able to take full advantage of. I wish there were other playable artifact creatures that were either more universally applicable (in the vein of Phyrexian War Beast for example...) or had specialized uses for other archetypes. But in the last three sets this is what we've gotten for playable artifact creatures:

Sundering Titan
Platinum Angel
Pentavus
Memnarch
Duplicant
Solemn Simulacrum (if you count this)

and now

Razorback Masticore

The Workshop archetypes have improved by leaps and bounds relative to other decks because, with few exceptions, these are creatures with very powerful effects that only Workshop decks can realistically afford to play. The only notable exception being Control Slaver using PA and Pentavus, and also the Arcbound affinity archetype if you count that.

[/rant]

[Razvan]

While it doesn't kill Psychatog, it can seriously screw up the math.

Anyhow, it's a strange critter. It costs 5-mana, so I will have to see how good it will be in TnT (the 4 mana to 5-power of the Juggernaut is hard to beat), but it might be able to steal a couple of spots from Su-Chi.

And the fact that it does clear the way a little bit against most other creature decks isn't bad either...

Again, it's hard to speculate until some proxies up this dude and gives it a shot. Hey... that's not a bad idea. *dashes off to try, then remembers that he is at work... dammit!*

Okay, when does this set come out?

[Rico Suave]

Anyhow, it's a strange critter. It costs 5-mana, so I will have to see how good it will be in TnT (the 4 mana to 5-power of the Juggernaut is hard to beat), but it might be able to steal a couple of spots from Su-Chi.

Why are people so concerned about improving TnT?  

TnT is old, and evolved to greener pastures at this point.

[Razvan]

Why are people so concerned about improving TnT?

Where else would you stick it? Hulk Smash?

Yeah, I agree TnT's glory days are over, but there's no reason in still maintaining it, especially if it still could be possible. It's not like it's not still doing well in some places.

[InsaneScrub]

After looking at the new Razorback Masticore I would have to agree with everyones post, this card is very viable, and in many ways much better than the original Masticore.  Though the 5 mana is high, slaver or workshop deck will definitely want to utilize this card!  You could call him Jugger What?  

[Ginai Doma]

I'm split on this card.  From a Vintage perspective, I do see him as a power house (Smmenen summed it up pretty well in his first post).  The fact that he functions under Matrix/Rod is enough to sell me.  However, I think that his usefulness is limited only to Vintage and Limited.  I won't go into my thoughts on his implications in other formats due to the scope of this forum, so for what its worth, a great addition to Welder based decks.

[Rico Suave]

Why are people so concerned about improving TnT?

Where else would you stick it? Hulk Smash?

Yeah, I agree TnT's glory days are over, but there's no reason in still maintaining it, especially if it still could be possible. It's not like it's not still doing well in some places.

I have absolutely no idea what you just said, or what your point was.

My point isn't that it's going to go in Tog, I'm saying there are better forms of artifact aggro than TnT.

[Sytupal]

Besides making abundant showings in SB's and possibly maindecked in some builds, this card could very well show up in every rogue build imaginable.


"Hate decks" need a creature like this.  The original masticore was hard to run in these decks because Null Rod is in a 3-4 of category which completely makes it useless.  


Depending on the Metagame, a build utilizing Null Rod or even cursed totem along with 5 strip effects and other separate lock down effects could easily power this beast out.      


Along with that, it could be forseen as another Monoblue Powerhouse in place of the Original Masticore using this as a Mana Drain sink.

[Lockdown]

An interesting comparison is to Triskelion.  I honestly believe that this can replace Trike in basically all decks that currently use them:

Triskelion - 6
Artifact Creature
Text (MR): 1/1. ; ~this~ comes into play with three +1/+1 counters on it. ; Remove a +1/+1 counter from ~this~: ~this~ deals 1 damage to target creature or player.

Razormane Masticore - 5  
Text :   5/5 ;   First strike; At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice Razormane Masticore unless you discard a card from your hand.; At the beginning of your draw step, you may have Razormane Masticore deal 3 damage to target creature.

While Triskelion has the added ability of being able to split the damage, I think that the Razormane Masticore is basically superior in every aspect (better in combat, discard not a drawback in artifact decks, reusable pinging effect).  Thoughts?

[Akuma]

I think everyone is getting a little carried away here. This guy is nice and all, and will probably have some narrow uses. Let's not forget the obvious:

"At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice Razormane Masticore unless you discard a card from your hand"

That is why Masticore is POOH in many matchups, that is also why this card will also be POOH in many matchups. They each have their pros and cons as already discussed, so I won't go over that again.

Verdict: It's a nice addition to our format, it will see some play. You still have to pay 5 mana and discard a card during your upkeep (and no, this isn't a good thing the vast majority of the time). Welder tricks you say? If you are doing that, then you probably have more ridiculous things to do.

[firebird365]

Lockdown: Remember, though, that Razormane Masticore can't target players. Triskelion is useful because you can drop it and take out an army of Welders (which R. Masticore would do in a couple turns) or you can use Welders of your own to combo out with it a la FCG.

Topic:

Honestly, I think he'll see the same amount of play as the original, possibly a little more (because of Null Rod). Honestly, 5 mana is a lot to ramp up to in a deck without Moxen; he might take the place of a fatty in TNT or something, but as I said above, Trisk is probably better in most situations.

[tropicpenguin]

This Guy can be useful in a tight spot, but as was said before me he can't control the board like original Masticore, this guy does a concentrated blast of 3 each turn which can be good for taking out bigger creatures. Original Masticore has the option of hitting small things which you might not want to waste 3 damage on. Of course original Masticore has an activation but the "new guy" costs more. Seems to even out.

Both seem like valuable assets to decks but in my conclusion , Razormane Masticore is more of a type 2 card. Of course you could say that about Masticore when it came out in Urza's Destiny , but then again Urza block was never a good example of type 2.  

As for the mana problem of it being 5 , guys this is type 1 , one extra mox or mana producer can take care of this.

[Toad]

The problem with the original Masticore is that It's NOT able to control the board anymore as it used to do before. Who plays with Jackal Pups and Savannah Lions in Type One? In a Workshop based deck, how often to you get enough manas to kill a Basking Rootwalla AND keep 2 for the regeneration ability you need to chump block that pesky Arrogant Wurm? Never. The only advantage Masticore has over the Razor one is that It can kill Welders. That's all. In my opinion, Razormane Masticore is far superior to the original Masticore. I'll start to test it soon in Slavery's SB as part of the 7-Men-Plan.

[Machinus]

Since now we are comparing them and not evaluating them in comparison to the rest of the field, let's do it intelligently.

Strong points of core: Regenerates, and is only four mana. Regeneration and the upkeep ability are antithetical, but the regeneration is still very useful. Core is certainly undercosted at 4, but it sucks up lots of mana to ping things. Five turn clock.

Strong points of razor: The three free damage every turn is extremely useful, but will likely be used most often to kill 1-2 toughness creatures. It can't regen and dies to any creature or artifact removal. However, this card is exceptionally powerful for two reasons which combine: five power, and first strike. The toughness is irrelevant really, even if it was a 5/3 it would still be very close to as good as it is now. While core had a machine gun, razor has a gigantic mace which can take down almost any other creature. Four turn clock.

To understand how good razor is, imagine a card costed at 3RR with its abilities, and realize how impossible it would be for R&D to make that card. Okay, then change 3RR to 5.