Hulk Smash with a different spin...

[MaxxMatt]

Hi all,

my teammates are really prolifics during these times and I feel the need to show you all this good piece of work of them.

I didn't collaborate to his construction only because I simply hate that Pescky 1/2 with an ability, but I realized soon the potential of this "new" (?.. I hope yes.. ) version.

The differences from the most established Smemmmen's and JP's ( and anyone that collaborate with them ) are a lot and I'm writing those lines because I think that it could be more refined and streamlined with the idea in mind that we are working on a different Hulk with different problems and solutions.


Decks to face and to win

My metagame isn't projected towards a "5-10 Proxy" tourney because we haven't them and we are "addicted" to DCI points . So we can face any deck ( bad and good ) that Magic can produce, old ones and new ones.  
In summary, it has the variety and the unpredictibility that only a good mix of those features can generate.
And the other REAL problems are that Anyone of Us is taking a lot of attention an professionality to this format and that anyone want to win ( powered or not ) and the last but not the least is that usually the tourney are HUGE. This add more randomness and more trouble while building decks and balancing them.

Two of my teammates piloted this deck for 3 tourney and the they place respectively 5th, 1st, 3rd and 4th, 2nd and 14th. The total amount of players varies from 80 up to 90 players.

Milan has been our last tourney. We have less players than normal ( 69 ), but I see one of the greatest variety of deck ever found at an italian tourney. This is a little breakdown of the meta, for reference.

 
Keeper 6 ( different builds but almost NO scepters in them )
Affinity 2 ( different sides )
TPS 6 ( with 2 or 3 artifact hate spell maindeck )
Hulk 9 ( differents builds. The one proposed here placed 4rd [5-1-1] and 11th 5-2-0 )
Goblin 3(lackey, reckless charge and sige-gang-commanders )
FCG 2 ( minor changes from JP's version )
Sligh 5 ( pillars and pop maindeck, maybe even some blood moons )
Monobrown 2 ( similar to the one proposed by me some weeks ago here on TMD)
Welder-MUD 1 ( with trinisphere maindeck )
TriNiT 3 ( 4 trinisphere miandeck )
Control-Slavery 2 ( TAL version with minor changes )
MW-Slavery 0
RG-Beatz 6 ( different versions. hate spells maindeck )
Monoblack 4 ( usual pletora of hate and discards )
Pt-funk 1
DARgon 2 ( many of the usual DARgon players chose to play other decks )
Rectal-Agony 2 ( artifact hate maindeck )
Oppo-tradewind 1
Ur-Scepter 2
Urw-Phid 1
Fish Ur 0
Fish-No-Fish Uw 1
Fish Uw 3
Fish Urw 1
Control-Madness 4 ( many versions but anyone of them packed 8 counters and 4-5 strips. )

I played and felt a lot confortable of my Keeper deck, but even my teammate with this Hulk build sayed to me after the torney that he didn't have ANY difficulties to win any match ( he did not lose a single game!!!! ) and he lose only a mirror because of opponent's godhandin both games. He smashed a TPS, a Dragon, a standard Hulk, a FCG, a Control-Slavery, a Welder-MUD.

And some of those decks could be a Nightmare for Hulk.
He found all the differences made to the maindeck and the side powered a lot most of all the matchups where he had more difficulties to usally win

The List

* Changes are written in Italic

(8)
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
0 Duress

(8)
3 Cunning Wish
3 Intuition
1 Demonic Tutor
0 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
0 Vampiric Tutor

(11)
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
2 Deep Analysis
1 Ancestral Recall

(4)
2 Fire/Ice
2 Pernicious Deed

(3)
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Mind Twist

(3)
3 Psycatog

(24)
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Sol Ring
2 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Island

Side.
1 Coffin Purge
1 Artifact Mutation
1 Deep Analysis
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Oxidize
2 Null Rod
2/3 Chalice of the Void
2 Ground Seal
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Fact or Fiction
0/1 Smother/Edict/Naturalize/ReB

As you can see the approach at the match that this build impose to the player is really a MORE controllish one. You can't check the opponent's hand to spy his cards and against many decks you HAVE to pass through Mindtwist to open a safe path to you 'Tog. The players who performed well with this build sayed to me that they didn't miss the Duress and on the other hand the lack of those cards is a necessity if we watch at the side and at the presence of CotV. As you saw in the little breakdown done above here, we have always a strong presence of Combo-decks ( cotv for 0 and 1 hurt a lot if the player who resolve them CAN protect them ) and standard control-decks ( that are really hurted by a CotV for 1 most of all post side, when they could draw Blast and Duress and Shamans and StP and possibily old them in hand useless ), so keeping more 2cc "solutions" maindeck ( removals and added tutors ) and "preparing" the maindeck itself to the possible swap of some spells with the good CotVs obliged us to "lose" some 0cc and 1cc spells ( 2 Moxen  and Duress ).

Tests rsults  suggested us that some Aggro decks could be beaten more easily or at least slowed down by a fast combination of Fires and Pernicious and Atogs, while you possibily lose ONLY your faster aproach towards the Control Matchup with this specific deck configuration. IMHO, taking out Duress, you don't lose consistency and power, but you have only to win in the middle-late game instead of during the early-middle game against a deck that CAN'T win fast whatever sequence of spells his deck can produce because his winners are slower than yours and requires at least 3-4 turns to set up a win.

The mana base count as been increased because of 2 reason:
1) The need of Wastelands against Workshop.dec and other Hulk.
2) To gain a better color and mana screw immunity against good decks as Workshop.dec and Keeper.dec that usually can win with their mana denial strategies.

So the loss of some moxen, the rising mana count and the introduction of the denial elements of our own, let us do a double job: to have weapon against opponent's LoAs and Workshops and Bazaars while going around the possible random screw that unluckily is ALWAYS deadly.

I refused not to play LoA in this deck, but all of my teammates sayed to me that the second Island let them win more games against common hate that LoA could have ever won. And adding another colorless mana could rise the Mulliganing rate or simply lower the possibility to have 2U open to resolve Drain on turn 2.
I think that could be found a compromise to add LoA without losing to much.

Wasteland can shine a lot in those matchup that usually are considered the worst for hulk and I'm referring to a DARgon with his uncouterable Bazaar-Squee's engine that keep going for 3 or 4 turns or to a Slavery that can have all his spells ALWAYS ACCELERATED by MW during the entire match. Even random Mazes or LoAs or unpredictables lands can conduce you to death. Wastelands in the maindeck resolve all those possible minor problems.

Watching at the maindeck with a severe eye, I hardly can find a card that I can consider "ALWAYS DEAD" in a specific matchup, excluding sometimes Pernicious Deed. The worst are paradoxally the 3 winners. I try go down to 2 Atogs adding another Deep or another utilities, but sometimes is too risky not to found soon a winner, losing time and life while digging the entire deck. The extreme proactivity induced by the 3 or 4 Duress have done space to an interesting reactiviy and solid approach to the game even in a Long Term Plan.

I don't know if it is alwaysbetter or not, but it functioned very well until now and it think that it can be considered another way of dealing with the enemies and to win matches with 'Tog.


The side have a lot of interesting aspects that can be considered good choices done analyzing and mumbling about the April Metagame or at least that can be considered innovative.

A lot of decks here can simply abuse of the Grave and/or of Artifact and/or of Storm not to put a specific attention to them. And the side is usually so tight that a standard hulk can't be setted IMHO to CONTEMPORARILY face all of them with a good chance to RISE the winning rate post side without the introduction of multiple 2of or 3of of (maybe but not necessarilty) non wishable and permanent spells. In such a "frame painted by my words", I think that, with this version of Hulk I can use the best weapons against specific complex problems without losing too much from the use itself of these powerful spells.

( From that point, I would start to talk about "Complex Problems" referring to them as Problems that can involve different aspects of the game and that can attack you from multiple perspectives, forcing you to do more actions than normal to neutralize them all  )

I see Null Rod as the best answer to any Complex Problem produced by an Artifact.dec. I shut up all his fast mana AND creatures ability AND non creatures ability. I lose less than any other IperAccelerated Hulk that have +3 Mox/Crypt in the count of the total mana available, so it is a good choice among all the choices available because it minimaze your loss maximizing the advantage.

In a similar way Ground Seal is the best answer to shut up entire engine of different decks ( Slavery, DARgon, Reanimator and so on ) and draw you a card too! .

Against Storm based decks the 2 major weapons are usually 3Sphere OR CotV. The latter are the ones we chose to use because they are cheaper and don't force us to draw too many dead cards. It blocks some AggroDecks too, rising the sinergy with Fires and Deeds. It can solve different problems with a similar use and the new configuration of the deck let us search those Bombs really fast and protect them very well.

The strength derived by the introduction of these Bullets  is maximized by the powerful search engine and by the good counters protection. IMHO, I can't see them in a better place rather than this deck.  The ( little or great ) amount of time that this deck gain with the introduction of these bullets is well optimized here because it draw a lot, counter a lot and can win fast.  No other deck can think to put a permanent in play, stall a bit the game and then win in a single turn without losing something.
This deck seems to interact a bit more with the opponent trying to establish the right Gap ( cards in hand, permaments in play, Bullets to stop his engine ) between him and you before setting an unstoppable rush that led you to the win with great consistency.

I'm not a fun of Hulk, as you see from my Tourney reports, but I feel really confident in this version because it has a different way to approach the game and it has great possibilities to face and win LARGE and IMPREDICTABLE fields without being obliged to "rush&maybewin" against some of his usual bad matchups
 



Discuss it!
Any thought?



MaxxMatt


EDIT> If any one among the moderators need to do some changes/corrections due to my not so well English, I'll be really glad to him/them.

EDIT2> Changes on List according to discussion and tests.
EDIT3> Changes on List according to discussion and tests.

[Klep]

I'm really not a fan of this build.  One of Hulk's greatest strengths is that you can often 'go broken' and just lightning blitz your opponent to the win.  Slowing the deck down by adding strips and removing moxen prevents you from doing this.  While I agree having some strips to deal with Workshops and Bazaars would be nice, it really shouldn't be necessary.

In addition, this build's game plan against combo seems to be to give up game one, then board in anti-synergistic hate cards for games 2 and 3.  Though you've clearly achieved an improved aggro matchup with the md Fire/Ice, this was never really a problem anyway since Tog eats everything.  The end result is that it seems you've traded a lot of Hulk's speed and explosiveness for a few strip effects and a weakened combo matchup.

[jpmeyer]

Aggro was always Tog's best matchup so there's no reason to try to make that matchup better.

With Wastelands, I've found that while they don't help you win, they can just be randomly amazing and win the game for you.  I've found if you want them, you can only run 3 colors.  Wastelands don't really help you very much in the mirror from what I've found unless you combine them with Cabal Interrogator.  The way that the mirror works is that there are a fair number of turns where each player can more or less do whatever he wants without fear of anything broken happening, so having a Wasteland at this point doesn't really do much.

[Jhaggs]

Very interesting read Matt.  I think moving away from Duress entirely is definitly something worth trying out.  Often times it can be a card that you just do not like to draw into.  I've been trying out 3 to 0 Duress in the MD.  Currently I only run 3 Duress MD if I know what I am going to be facing.  If my meta is questionable, I'll lower the count to 1 Duress and 1 Twist.  In this situation, I would rather have a few Duress slots open to insert an extra Deed/Fire/Shaman that can deal with a broader range of decks for game one.  

As for other points to your thread, cutting the moxen I think is a puzzling choice.  Anything that can get Intuition online faster is just good policy.  Mana Crypt/Pearl/Ruby fit this bill.  Also, I am unsure about Merchant Scroll.  I've never really been a big fan of it and I was hoping that you could explain it's inclusion.  The sideboard is interesting.  To be honest, I haven't really thought of delegating that many non-wish targets slots in it.  Interesting.

All in all, I like the deck.  I'm a big fan of taking things in a different direction to improve matchups that you will face as well as taking a different philosophy with an established deck.  Good Luck with this.

[rvs]

Maxx: Check my Tog-deck I won the Antwerp Time Walk tourney in Februari with. It depeloped itself from your list to what I actually played that day. (although I might change 1 or 2 things around again).
Maindeck fire/ice is really bad though, since it's wishable so easy, and you don't need it against Aggro. I'd rather just run a 2nd deed.

[MaxxMatt]

Thanx for the feedback

@Klep.

The end result is that it seems you've traded a lot of Hulk's speed and explosiveness for a few strip effects and a weakened combo matchup.

I totally disagree. The combo matchp could not be better. Strips AND CotVs AND maybe even Rods, protected by Counters are the BEST way to deal with combo. They can't go off and you are almost untouched by those spells thanks to the changes done at the maindeck.

Talking about the other points.
Your best plan for the "Bazaar-Matchup" is usually:
1)Duress AND/OR FoW
2)Drain AND/OR FOW
3+)Atogs' Brokeness AND/OR Wish for Purges-Removals.

You have not other options other than these ones to win agaisnt a good DARgon.dec or Madness.dec or Oshawa.dec if you follow a different path, because this sequence is one of the most solid ones, but has the problem that NOT always can be done because of "stocastic-statistic-unpredictable problems". I feel the need of more possible ways of approaching the same problem. Adding Wastes and Never-Dead-Removals give you more tools to resolve this problem and give Solid way to deal with it, without losing the possibility to go broken as usually Tog can go.

Same words can be used towards the possible different approach that this deck can have Versus MW.dec. Denying them his explosivness with the use of Waste can ruin their plan a lot. Maybe not alway, but I'm sure that this deck have a more stable mana base rather then a MW_Slavery for example. Ruining his winning plans using an unusual and unexpected approach to the game couldn't be possible without Different Tools. You don't always NEED to play Wastelands to win, but not having them in, you prevent yourself from using another interesting and possiblel plan of victory.

@JP. You are ( sadly as always ) almost totally correct.
I ( and I think even my Hulk-Teammates-Players think in the same way )  didn't think about the Cabal Interrogator to gain tempo and "littletimewalks" in the mirror. If I have to be honest, I think that me/they knew that this build has really NO WAY to improve the Mirror post side, excluding the lone Deep and maybe FoF.
Talking about the mirror with them, they told me that they didn't expect a lot of Hulkvs.Hulk and that all the other players aren't so skilled. So they felt more confident on having MORE chances of winning with this new configuration agaisnt Aggro, Workshop, DARgon and Combo SKILLED players ( that are usually the only ones that can top8 ) rather then focusing side and maindeck for the mirror. Thinking about Speed and MirrorMatches I'm sure that 3 Intuitions and all the acceleration available and Duresses is ALWAYS the way to go, but if the problems come from different directions ( as here in Italy ) I think that this configuration can give you more satisfaction and results that other ones.

Talking about Cabal Interrogator. I think that you should have 2 or 3 of them in side to try to resolve one of them in the first 2 turns and use his good ability BEFORE the opponent is ready to Intuition for something and "go off". Tapping out in such a way isn't too risky?
I think that for the mirror 2-3 intuition, 3-4 Deep and a pletora of Duress-ReBs should do a great job. What do you think?


JP and Rudy. As you two, I'm one of the few supporters ( here in italy ) of a "3color-maybewithWastes-Hulk"'s build, because has really a more solid manabase, but I have to agree with my teammates that some RED Spells can steal good and real victories with consistency against some specific decks.

For Example.
-Preventing to a Gobbo or a FCG to go broken with some of their Dorks with a first-second turn Fire can be a Key move to a safer victory.
-Having Artifact Mutation in your side, yit can singlehandly win you entire games agaisnt any Workshop.dec that use an Artifact with cc higher than 4. Same words can be used for R&R.
-Even only a a well placed ReB can win you Mirrors
-IMHO they are ALL MISSING Gorilla Shaman , that can rule agaisnt Slavery and or Controls, nullifing opponents CotVs and their mana development or Welder artifact's recursion
-Multiple Ices can be considered multiple Time Walks while resizing/growing your hand to win with Tog against any deck that use the Attack Phase or simply the Mainphase.

---------------

I'm here to do the bad and difficult job of the one who talk and explain something about other's work about something I didn't like: Atogs.
Hoping to have been constructive too..


EDIT. Changes at the List

-1 LoA
-1 Waste
+1 Deed
+1 Vampiric

Those are the news from the tourneys and the tests.

[Klep]

Thanx for the feedback
I totally disagree. The combo matchp could not be better. Strips AND CotVs AND maybe even Rods, protected by Counters are the BEST way to deal with combo. They can't go off and you are almost untouched by those spells thanks to the changes done at the maindeck.

That's a good point.  I suppose it really depends on how you intend to play the deck.  Your version is the most controllish version I've ever seen, whereas the conventional one tries to win as soon as possible and wants Duress to clear the way.  Frankly, I just think the conventional one is better because it can "go off" and just win, and to quote JP, "winning is so the best answer in Magic."

I really think that you should go with a third Intuition over Merchant Scroll regardless.  What testing I've done shows it to be pure, solid gold.  Rudy's also right about Fire/Ice main.  You don't need them, and they could be more draw spells, tutors or even better, Gorilla Shaman.

[xzero]

At the beginning of the list, with no Duress, I figured that it would be more geared toward comboing out with a Tog.  Then I saw deuce Fire/Ice and Deed.  It seems like you're torn between going combo and going control, which may not be good.  I do love Fire/Ice as a one-of in Tog, however.  It is randomly good.

Library has to be included over the second Wasteland.  Unanswered, Library of Alexandria wins the game.

[MaxxMatt]

@Klep.
 

You don't need them, and they could be more draw spells, tutors or even better, Gorilla Shaman.

Maybe I'm wrong or you may have intended something else, but if look at the entire list, you should have noticed that it pack the same amount of Tutors and Drawers that any other Hulk pack in.  And about the 3rd Intuition in "standard" Tog build, I think that Smmemmen show us his results  2 die ago.. so we have to test if needed OR if it can fit THIS build...

BUT...  I 'm sure that it should be tested and placed in the Mystical Spot for now, not in the Merchant Scroll's one. I like a lot that damn card that catch for me and put IN MY HAND anyone of the goodies of the deck excluding Y.Will. and Mindtwist. In a common build I would have preferred Mystical Tutor, for the ability to catch anything, despite the cards lost. In this build, with te Goal in Mind of not relying too much on 0cc and 1 cc spell, to power the side choices, Merchant is the perfect card that can tutor to you BOTH Removals AND Drawers.

This version can give you the TIME or the CHOICE to try to control the game rather then JUST winning, most of all because some decks if you lack of interactions don't let you do whatever you want, in most of the cases ( DARgon, MW.dec, Storm.dec )

I'm with JP, when he says about the difference between SimplyWinning and PlayalotBEFORETrying to WIn. I noticed that some metagames lacked of some archetips and with this asimmetry in the field let him/me/you all think that simply winning is the best among the choices, because it can be possible simply not considering some enemies because they don't do any appearance.

Rudy seemed to have a more Mixed and Large and Unpredictable Enviroment where to play. He do similar choices, not so radicals as us, but really similar to us.

Maybe it isn't really interesting to support anything, but last week 4 times a GoBBo Player going second started Lotus Mountain Lackey Reckess Cherge and Siege Gang Commander, leaving 2 open to resolve a Piledriver. Relying only on FoW in this simple scenario is worst than having FOW + FIre in the deck. One choice will let you survive and win for sure, another one led you to die without so much choices of winning.

Fire Kill first turn Welders, Lackeys, Shamans, every Fish Man with pesky abilities, Metalworkers and eventually... Players!
Ices are good to give you time, "steal a Mana Drain" against an oppponent with 2U open, to have a fresh card in hand and letting you lose not so much after a BAD Brainstorm without Fetchlands to break.

If you look at the changes, think the Duresses are out for Fire/Ices and Wastes ( with other minor changes ). It is Not only because of the proactivity/situationality of Duress but most of all because of the sinergy with some Cards in Side.



.SIDE NOTE. "...Intuitionig or Not Intuitioning? That not a PROBLEM AT ALL!"
I thought about the Worst Intuition that can be resolved. I think that it should be considered Intuitioning for 3 Real Lands, non Fetchlands ( it could be a more effective choice: more cards in the grave --> more damage with Tog ). It gives to you 1.5 damage in the grave ( with Intuition intself ) and  1.5 damages in hand-grave. It is a good results for the worst one. At least you can have a "Rootwalla Attack" with those added cards. It is really great.

.ANOTHER SIDE NOTE.
I thought and played the Keeper vs. THISHulk matchup.
More Blu Spell to Counter.
Less NON BLu Spell to COunter.
It seems ( from my Keeper Perspective ) more appealing to me:

BUT...

Playing against this deck with Keeper and a pletora of Blasts and StP in my side I noticed that, excluding brokeness, I don't have more or better chances of winning or stealing games rather than before.  
-If anyone go broken he usually will win.
-If both go broken, Hulk will Win because it win faster than me.
-If the player if skilled, having only Mindtwist and focusing ALL the game around that counter war is usually enough compared to Duressing Keeper to Death in the first 4 turns. He has more cards to pitch to FoW. I have more Non Blu spell to win counter wars. The one who starts first at resolving them will win.
-He has more removals for Soldiers and Shamans and Angels. It is stupid but the SoldierRushRushRush in the first 3 or 4 turns cannot be thought anymore.
-Keeper has a lot of difficulties about winning the match if Hulk resolve one of his non blu or blu spell.
-Hulk has a lot of difficulties about winning if Keeper starts resolving his non blu spells
-This Hulk can topdeck worst than a Smemmen's One, but usually it isn't easily reduced to topdeck, so the right approach to different games let you go around this problem.


So, I think that It is really a good deck if can smash WITH SKILLS another good deck that HAS answers to Togs. Duress, even if i considered it powerful,  simplify a  matchup that can be won in billion of other different ways.




EDIT_LIST>>> LoA Forever. My teammates sometimes sucks...

-1 Vampiric Tutor
-1 Mystical Tutor
+1 Intuition
+1 Library of Alexandria