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Author Topic: Enough blue sources in Control Slaver to use Mana Drain?  (Read 1001 times)
Koen
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« on: April 23, 2004, 01:14:47 pm »

fishhead wrote the following here:
Quote
This is something I don't get about this deck. A lot of people are playing really aggressive land counts like 17 or 16, yet you do want to be able to cast Mana Drain ASAP. (Dont you?!)

Running a little math(*), I find that a 7 card hand has about a 40% chance of not showing UU to start. An 8 card hand is 31%, a 9 card hand is 24%. So:

UU 7 cards 60%
UU 8 cards 69%
UU 9 cards 76%

Now, you have to make your mulligan decision after seeing either 7 or 8 cards depending on whether you won the coin toss; you'll have to make your turn 2 play after 8 or 9 cards; hence these numbers.

Can you afford to keep a hand with one blue source? It's relatively likely you'll have to make that decision in any given game. I don't get how Mana Drain ends up being a valid part of this decks plan given the land count.

(*) Math caveats: There are like 100 caveats to this sort of calculation. I only counted lands and the sapphire as U sources, so no Lotus and no Tolarian. I didn't account for any plays by either player, like you Ancestralling to get more cards or him Wastelanding your land. But the numbers should serve as a decent benchmark for discussion.


I am replying here because the level of intelligence and T1 knowledge in the restricted forum is supposedly far beyond mine, so I can't post there, but I just had to point out that this calculation is wrong, before this wrong math starts to influence people's deck building decisions.

If you calculate the chance for at least 2 blue mana sources in a hand of 7 cards, while you have 17 blue mana sources, this is how it should be done:

43/60 * 42/59 * 41/58 * 40/57 * 39/56 * 38/55 * 37/54 = 8.344%
17/60 * 43/57 * 42/58 * 41/57 * 40/56 * 39/55 * 38/54 = 3.834%
The above chance in the 6 other orders:                      = 23.002%

Chance of no 2 blue mana sources in 7 cards:        35.179% (Sum of the 3 chances above)

So that's about 35% instead of the 40% previously advocated by fishhead.

Recap: The first line is the chance that you draw no lands at all. You can't just do (43/60)^7, because if a non-land is drawn, the odds for a land increase. The 2nd line is the chance of first drawing a land, then 6 non-land, you have to do this 7 times, for each order in which this can happen. Then you have all the odds added up for not drawing 2 lands.

Some people after the quoted post rightfully pointed out that Brainstorm should improve your chances. I also did the calculation in the case of having 4 Brainstorms (BS) and an Ancestral (A), then the calculation of all the unpleasant scenarios becomes:

No land in 7 cards: 8.344%
1 land, but no BS, no A: 12.152%
1 land, a BS/A, but no land in next 3 cards: 4.870%
This adds up to: 25.366%

Note that this is almost 10 percent points lower! So the addition of Brainstorms is obviously very good. But most people already know that, I hope.

The exact calculation:
8.344%: see above.
17/60 * 38/59 * 37/58 * 36/57 * 35/56 * 34/55 * 33/54 = 12.152%
The calculation of the 4.870% is more complicated:
Chance of just 1 land 3.834% + 23.002% (see above) = 26.836%
The chance of 1 land, but no BS, no A: 12.152%.
The difference between the above 2 chances is the chance that you have a hand with 1 land and at least 1 BS or A. This difference is: 14.684%. Then when you have 1 land and a BS or A, the chance that there is no land in the next 3 cards is:
37/53 * 36/52 * 35/51 = 33.168%
Then: 33.168% * 14.684% = 4.870%

Note that even this is not completely right, as with Ancestral you will see 4 more cards out of which 1 being a land would be sufficient. But well, Ancestrals are more likely to be countered, so you can continue arguing from here endlessly about things like that.

I just wanted to show that Brainstorms help incredibly and that the previous calculations weren't right.

BTW, also a possible play is not Brainstorming eot, but first drawing the 8th card, and then Brainstorming. You will see 4 extra cards then, instead of 3. This can be an option when you estimate having UU open on turn 2 is not absolutely neccessary. The 33% chance of not getting a 2nd land, is then reduced to 22.6%.

Greets,

Koen
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The Hamburgler
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« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2004, 02:50:42 pm »

Quote
I am replying here because the level of intelligence and T1 knowledge in the restricted forum is supposedly far beyond mine, so I can't post there, but I just had to point out that this calculation is wrong, before this wrong math starts to influence people's deck building decisions.


This is obviously a reasonable assumption, because Slavery has eighteen blue mana sources (you failed to count the sixteen lands, Mox Sapphire and Black Lotus) and I find this ironic, considering you did all these percentages to prove a mathematical point, but you failed to simply count. The other fixation is, if the player gets the blue mana in the form of a Polluted Delta, the odds of drawing a land contract another three-four percent (after activation), I would work this out, but I believe that using mathematics’ in the face of decks and their problems have too many variables, where it would show much more incentive to simply use logic and play test. Nonetheless, it was a worthy attempt to bring a discussion of Control Slaver's manabase, but I think the deck that needs much more help in that area would have to be Workshop Slaver.
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PucktheCat
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« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2004, 03:11:32 pm »

From the closed forum thread's first post . . .

Quote
// Mana
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
// Land
1 Library of Alexandria
2 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
6 Island


Looks like 16 blue producing lands and one Mox Sapphire for a total of 17 blue sources.  Black Lotus typically isn't counted in these calculations because it isn't a permanent source.  If you want to include it you can, but not including it is conventional, and makes a lot of sense.

As for math not being relevant because of the complexity of decks, I would agree with you for many things, but mana distribution isn't one of them.  The number of variables that can have a drastic effect on your odds of having double-U by second turn are really quite low.  For example, Polluted Delta can't be used before you draw your opening seven, so it can't affect the odds that you draw two blue in your opening hand.  It can affect the chances that a Brainstorm will find you a second land, but not very much.

Remember that these calculations are only there to give you a rough idea what is reasonable - testing is for refinement.

Leo
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