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Zherbus
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« on: April 25, 2004, 11:31:50 am » |
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//GermBus ZherbMans 4 Flooded Strand 3 Tundra 3 Underground Sea 2 City of Brass 2 Volcanic Island 4 Wasteland 1 Strip Mine 1 Library of Alexandria
1 Sol Ring 1 Black Lotus 1 Mox Jet 1 Mox Sapphire 1 Mox Ruby 1 Mox Pearl
4 Force of Will 4 Mana Drain 4 Brainstorm 3 Cunning Wish
1 Ancestral Recall 1 Fact or Fiction 3 Skeletal Scrying
1 Demonic Tutor 1 Mystical Tutor 1 Yawgmoth's Will 1 Mind Twist 1 Time Walk
2 Swords to Plowshares 1 Fire/Ice 1 Balance
2 Gorilla Shaman 3 Exalted Angel
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast SB: 3 Flametongue Kavu SB: 2 Rack and Ruin SB: 1 Damping Matrix SB: 1 Disenchant SB: 1 Gush SB: 1 Vampiric Tutor SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares SB: 1 Skeletal Scrying SB: 1 Blue Elemental Blast
Here is basically the same build a group of Germans (Mon, Kim Kluck, Womprax), Toad, and myself have been tweaking and testing for the last month and a half. A bit of history is that we originally started with 4 Scryings, but color-balancing forced us into running only 3 with 1 in the board. I plan on posting some testing data later on, but I believe CrazyCarl's build is very close (we HAD been discussing it together for the last few weeks) and was T4 last I knew at the Waterbury Open.
My personal build runs only 2 Wishes and 2 Angels for 2 more Decree, but this is more or less subject to change based on the usual variables.
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walkingdude
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« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2004, 12:41:31 pm » |
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How does not having an un-counterable win condition change the keeper mirror and the tog match? Do you play for control and drop it at the end ala old school or do you just throw down angel the first chance you get and hope to finish things quickly?
// note thats for people with no Doj maindeck. I see you still run 2.
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Matt
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« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2004, 04:30:42 pm » |
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I see you're siding multiple FTKs and a Gush. Why Gush? Seeing a lot of Wastelands or something lately?
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Zherbus
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« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2004, 04:39:42 pm » |
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I'm actually the only one using Gush, which means I'm apparently the only one making it work. It lets you get 2 white with only 1 tundra, it's mostly been used for feeding LoA and Brainstorm tricks. Also, though it can be used to save duals, I've found that I'm just not using it for that.
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Eastman
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« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2004, 07:02:30 pm » |
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I like it. The angel is an awesome tool.
It seemed to run very nicely for Carl yesterday.
I'm going to start testing this myself, see where it goes.
I'm worried about decks with heavy draw. I'd love to play keeper without chains (or with Brainstorm, I should say), but how are you beating someone who draws 2 aks early?
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Dante
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« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2004, 08:00:33 pm » |
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I'm worried about decks with heavy draw. I'd love to play keeper without chains (or with Brainstorm, I should say), but how are you beating someone who draws 2 aks early? Unless they Intuition for the other 2 to draw 7 (3+4), drawing 3 cards total off 2 AKs isn't something I'd particularly worry about, esp when a medium size Scrying can equal that.
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Zherbus
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« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2004, 09:30:08 pm » |
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I'm worried about decks with heavy draw. I'd love to play keeper without chains (or with Brainstorm, I should say), but how are you beating someone who draws 2 aks early? Well thats generally the beauty of Scrying in that you generally only need to resolve one to equal the economy of 2 AK's.
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Shades
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« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2004, 05:01:41 am » |
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Hi, for the one who don't know me. I'm Kim Kluck. I worked on the deck with Zherbus, Carsten, Womprax and Toad the last few weeks. And I think that it's the next "big" thing after the strong growing of Slaver. I've played it yesterday in a local tourney too and I won taht. I bet Carsten in the mirror, I won vs. Dryad.hate, full-powered FCG and random.dec with Forces, Misdirections and a strong black component including Shades (  ) and Scutas for the win. I lost only game vs. Carsten in the mirror. The Deck is a blast to play and it beats up Slavers like you wouldn't believe (although it didn't prove that yesterday, but we tested this matchup all day long  ) The FTK's in the SB allow you to beat Madness, which would be your worst matchup otherwise although it has become better with the inclusion of Exalteds.
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MaxxMatt
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« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2004, 05:37:17 am » |
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Welcome back in the Necro-Summer. Program Beating All do 1, i=1,"A LOT" Pay 1 life. Draw a card. Begin Smiling. Remember: You don't lose your draw phase! Put it in your hand and don't lose a turn resolving this operation if (Opponent.HAS.Mis-Ds) then Laugh at him for 3 minutes smiling at his anachronism else if (Opponent.HAS.ReBs) then Laugh at him for 3 minutes saying "It wuould be better the next time... Good Game endif enddo stop end  Sorry for the Joking, but the deck likes me a lot.  3 quick questions: - The lack of the Purges in the side can be considered a metagame choice? - The CrazyCarl's side appeared to me a bit more balanced to face a large metagame. What do you think? -Why are the reasons behind the choice of the lone Damping Matrix? ( I can think about siding it and Vampiric tutor against Slavery to slow them down a bit while setting up the mana and beating with Angels. As you Steve, I like a lot the Gush in the Side. It is really satisfing to have a Protection/Drawing/FreeCastingCost card that can capitalize the usual flood or the screw of lands that Keeper usually have. And I'm with you with the choice of Keeping in the 1 or 2 Decrees of Justice. Control Mirrors rulez!  How is the mulliganing rate during your tests? In your previous build I noticed that I mulligan ( and only for screw, not for other reasons ) with a 1/7 rate. It appeared to me to be one of the best weapon of this deck. Good Work Men! 
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« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2004, 08:13:23 am » |
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Nice work. I <3 Keeper and I'm glad to see it getting more innovation. It also makes me sad that it's running Exalted now though, as I was hoping to not have to get any until Onslaught rotated out of Type 2.  Still, Keeper was my first real Type 1 deck, so I'll probably be giving this a shot. I do question the merit of making the general build have no Decrees. Decree just seems to be soo good all the time, and I don't see a meta-based reason to cut it. It seems both Zherbus and Carl have the same reservations, as each seem to be running at least 1 Decree, but for those who argue against it's inclusion, what are your reasons?
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Zherbus
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« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2004, 09:19:37 am » |
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3 quick questions: - The lack of the Purges in the side can be considered a metagame choice? - The CrazyCarl's side appeared to me a bit more balanced to face a large metagame. What do you think? -Why are the reasons behind the choice of the lone Damping Matrix? ( I can think about siding it and Vampiric tutor against Slavery to slow them down a bit while setting up the mana and beating with Angels.
1) You're giving other decks too much credit. I really believe that Dragon doesn't warrant Purges right now and that Rector X isn't around enough to waste the slots on it. 2) See #1. 3) The Matrix is good to tutor for against Slaver as you mentioned, it's also good against things like U/G Madness. I do question the merit of making the general build have no Decrees. Decree just seems to be soo good all the time, and I don't see a meta-based reason to cut it. It seems both Zherbus and Carl have the same reservations, as each seem to be running at least 1 Decree, but for those who argue against it's inclusion, what are your reasons? Here's whats on the bottom of the very first post: My personal build runs only 2 Wishes and 2 Angels for 2 more Decree, but this is more or less subject to change based on the usual variables.
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Shades
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« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2004, 09:36:56 am » |
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I agree woth you, having no decrees is not a good idea. They are always good and really baroken in the late game, but you definately need the speed and lifegain of Exalted. He is nearly unraceable for a "normal" Aggro Deck ("normal" = Sui, Fish, RG, ... ). I play with a 3/1 Figuration atm and with a plaguebearer in the board just because he is cool  . Carls SB is really tweaked for beating Dragon and rector, but I dont think its bnecessary becasue there is no RectorTrix at the top tables and you have enough other hate for dragon, so you dont need 'em. /edit: Zherbus was faster... 
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Dozer
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« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2004, 10:25:40 am » |
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I have to chime in here, too. I played a derivate of this build at the last Dülmen, placing 15th on tiebreakers with 5-2. My personal list differed from the one Zherbus gives above by playing a 4th Angel instead of the 3rd Wish and a MD Damping Matrix in place of Time Walk (I don't own one and was unable to borrow it for the tournament). Also, I played the 4th Tundra as 61st card. Common wisdom says this is bad, but it isn't - it smoothes the mana percentage of the deck to the point that I never got either screwed or flooded for the time being. The color consistency this brings is strictly amazing, and I prefer the 4th Tundra over a fifth Fetchland, because if opponents go for your white mana, you easily get to the point where 2 Tundras get wasted, and then you are desperate for fetchable double W. The Cities help a lot, but having six sources is better than five. Additionally, with the lack of Decrees, I replaced the maindeck Mystical with Vampiric Tutor and put Mystical SB. I want all of my tutors to be able to fetch a win condition, and Mystical does nothing Vampiric cannot do. The blue card count is high enough without Mystical to support Force of Will. I had extremely good results with 4 Angels in the maindeck, since a) nobody expected them, and b) they allow you to beat every aggro deck to a pulp easily. Only in the mirror match, which I lost in the tournament, and vs Landstill is Decree the superior win condition. I was able to race Pyromaniac with Hulk just by plopping 2nd and 3rd turn Angel and smashing face. Since the (American!) build he played had no removal SB, he lost the race because his 'Tog was a turn too slow. Posted by walkingdude: How does not having an un-counterable win condition change the keeper mirror and the tog match? Do you play for control and drop it at the end ala old school or do you just throw down angel the first chance you get and hope to finish things quickly?
// note thats for people with no Doj maindeck. I see you still run 2. This applies to me, so I can answer your question: With 4 Angels MD, you can do both. The first Angel you draw is the one you throw down early and put pressure on your opponent. Then, you play aggro-control as long as the Angel stays on the board. The key point is that with Angels, Keeper can (similar to Hulk) assume the aggressive role in most matchups. That makes the deck less predictable. The bigger problem for me was Maze of Ith in a Landstill-Match, where I had to waste one and then play double Angel without immediate backup. My current build has 4 Angels AND a Decree (in the Time Walk slot), and I would not go below 4 either. I consider 2 Wishes sufficient, but that is a matter of personal playstyle. Posted by Eastman: I'm worried about decks with heavy draw. I'd love to play keeper without chains (or with Brainstorm, I should say), but how are you beating someone who draws 2 aks early? Bait with an Angel and then make a Scrying for a lot. Scryings are powerful enough to match AKs. Even Intuition for AK, bad news as it is, draws "only" four cards, whereas a single Scrying can achieve the same. I have boarded in the fourth Scrying vs. Hulk and in the Control mirror, and they set you up pretty well. Scryings use up less ressources card-wise, and the lifeloss is irrelevant when you have 3-4 Angels in your deck. It seems like trivial knowledge, but the synergy between the two cards is so amazing that running 4 of both (between SB and MD) is easily justified. So far, Dozer
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CrazyCarl
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« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2004, 12:29:58 pm » |
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And what you've all been waiting for... My two cents! Exalted Angel is the nuts, but I don't want to be running 4, even against aggro. I don't think I ever found myself without an Angel or a way to get to it, and I found that with 4, sometimes I'd find a couple of Angels clogging up my hand, and that ain't cool. Skeletal Scrying is also the nut. I think it's -better- then Intuition/AK in the control mirror(though I prefer the AK engine against aggro) as it's usually used more times than AK, it's an awesome mana drain sink, and in a matchup featuring REB's on the other side of the table, it's godly as there's not a whole lot they can do: Me: Scrying Them: REB... er, I guess I have to Drain Me: REB Or something like that. Spells that can't be REB'd are awesome. Especially instants. I found out, only in the top 4(a good time to find out) that 5 white sources just wasn't enough. I can't bring myself to cut a strip, so I figure I should fit in another Tundra somehow. I'll figure it out at some point. Maxx: I intended my board to be for a wider metagame. I wanted to fit in FTK's, but I could only find 2 expendable slots(Fire/Ice and Gush), and I didn't feel like running only 2. 3 rules. Also, Ghitu Slinger anyone?  ---Bluff Stifle, and they will play around it. Balance is much better in this build than in the past. After reseting the game, you have more draw to try and pull ahead, and I pulled that off alot Saturday. I didn't think I'd have much trouble with GAT, so maybe I should blame on draws or something? It's not like I playtest, so I have no idea what way the match should go. I remember playing DecreeKeeper at the last Waterbury, and it ran well. When I thought of the possibility of adding a few Decrees, I remembered how slow it was, and you really only need one or two to pick up the Angel's slack. Since I own one, I cut the Fire/Ice and ran the Decree instead, and it was soooooo good. Against Goblins it's a really good way to kill a Lacky earlyish, though you still need to rely on Plow/FoW to deal with a turn 1-2 Lacky. Post board that becomes a TON easier(2 BEB, 3 Plow, 1 Fire/Ice). A turn one morph also stops Lacky dead.
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rozetta
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« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2004, 01:23:59 pm » |
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Those sideboard FTKs have me a little puzzled. It seems to me that the deck is already pretty strong versus aggro given the 2 - 4 Angels backed up with traditional Keeper removal. I haven't played for a month and a half on account of buying a house and being all busy moving, etc. so maybe I missed something important, but looking through the recent threads I couldn't find anything obvious...
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Zherbus
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« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2004, 02:29:11 pm » |
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Rozetta, it's generally there for better removal. Angel's really do little against U/G Madness (or any deck with Mongrel) once the egine gets going. You really need to throw the FTK's at the problem creatures to stop engines from rolling. Also, it's much faster against FCG than Angel, which does count for alot though FCG isn't extremely problematic for Germbus.
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bebe
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« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2004, 09:20:31 am » |
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GErmbus Keeper has an aggro-control feel to it with early Angels backed by counters but I'm not convinced of that this strategy is compelling enough to play it. The core of Keeper remains the same with its game breaking spells. Exalted joins this list. But is Keeper truly a Tier 1 deck? Is it as good as Hulk and Slaver?
What is encouraging for Keeper is that the meta is allowing for a definitive Keeper list where a consensus of the majority of the deck is possible. But is it viable for the new meta. Can Keeper produce a definitve list and have any lasting success or will it do well only in certain pockets of T1.
Let us agree that Tog and Slaver are at the top now. Keeper does well Slaver and of course against most aggro builds. It is decent but not overpowering against combo decks which I would catagorize as Dragon, Draw 7 and Belcher these days. But by no means are they auto wins. I've beaten Keepr with Dragon on a few occasions.
So Gemrbus Keeper can be played against the majority of decks. However, does it beat Steve's Hulk more often than not? Our testing has shown that Hulk plays Keeper very well and that Keeper is a favorable match up. If this is true is it worth going back to when Hulk appears to be the better option? What is your game plan against this deck? Is Damping Matrix your best option?
BTW, I really believe that two stifles and two DoJ improve the build for all the reasons already mentioned.
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Zherbus
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« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2004, 09:52:17 am » |
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Damping Matrix is absolutely not the way to go against Tog. You definitely want to start by siding OUT STP's, not bringing more creature control IN. Despite some Tog versions running Xantid Swarm, Swords to Plowshares is bad against Tog. Yes, I know for one white mana you can remove a Tog from the game, but how does a Swords to Plowshares help you establish a superior position when fighting over an AK for 3? For this reason, Damping Matrix is a questionable choice to bring in against Tog. Red Elemental Blast can be removal as well, while at the same time stopping every single card draw spell Tog has.
As far as a definitive Germbus list, there can be no such thing. It'll never be tier 1, because it will never be a deck-to-beat. It's reactive in nature by playstyle and by metagame placement. It should have no place on Smmenen's 5 pointed metagame diagram because you need to see what points are relevant to you before even drawing up a list. It molds itself to the metagame, not the other way around.
Does it beat Tog more often than not? Nope, but our testing shows that it's very close to split. 3 Skeletal Scrying really can stand toe-to-toe with an AK engine and at times out-perform it.
Stifles aren't included because they are generally easy to play around, sometimes dead-in-hand, and narrow in effect. There's a few times where you might have been able to use Stifle, but not more than there are times when you want to draw off a Scrying or flip over an Angel.
Lastly, a note about 'auto-wins'. There really is no such thing in Type 1. Our format, as far as relevant decks goes, plays with too many game-swinging cards to have such a thing.
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DavidHernandez
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« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2004, 12:46:42 pm » |
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Do you have any problems with the lack of any basic land in the build?
dave.
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Zherbus
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« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2004, 01:03:44 pm » |
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It was rare to lose to a Bloodmoon before when I had an island. The 2 biggest decks that it was originally intended for was URPhid and TnT which are both basically off the map.
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CrazyCarl
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« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2004, 01:48:23 pm » |
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Blood Moon happens. It sucks. I like basics to fetch because they like, don't die to Wasteland.
The downsides are:
You're using a fetch that you could potentially need to get colored mana
You're reducing the number of mana sources for your tertiary colors.
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« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2004, 02:36:44 pm » |
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I like the return of City of Brass. It really looks good on paper, especially with that many people playing multiple maindeck stifles against fetchlands. It's been frustrating recently to have to constantly play around stifle with the fetchlands or suffer the predictable early-game tempo swing. Actually, on a slight tangent, when playing the 1995 Keeper ( http://www.classicdojo.org/history/thedeck2.html) a short while ago, one thing I really enjoyed was it's strong resilience to current Keeper-targetted hate like stifle. In fact in a short testing period of some 10 games, it won almost every game versus U/R fish. Consider that it has only 2 strips, less draw than modern Keeper, nothing like DoJ to play under standstill and no yawgwin, that's not bad. With the 2 or more angels in these recent "Keeper" builds, it sort of feels like the old days again 
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Dozer
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« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2004, 07:03:52 am » |
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I found out, only in the top 4(a good time to find out) that 5 white sources just wasn't enough. I can't bring myself to cut a strip, so I figure I should fit in another Tundra somehow. I'll figure it out at some point. Cut the LoA (not a good idea, IMO) or play 61 cards, like we Germans do. Why? I'll tell you. If you look at the mana percentages, you'll find the following: 60 cards/ 24 mana sources = 40 % mana This is the "standard" ratio we all know. Keeper needs to up this percentage due to color requirements, the need for early Drain Mana, the incorporation of Wastelands and the necessity not to miss an early land drop. This is common knowledge. 60 cards/ 26 mana sources = 43.33 % mana 60 cards/ 27 mana sources = 45.00 % mana These are the two standard configurations without adding a card. As both testing and experience show, 45 % almost always floods you with mana. Even Keeper does not need an amount this high, because it has Drains to accelerate and generally very cost-effective, even cheap, spells. 26 land is a count that allows for very smooth games, but does even with Brainstorms and other draw spells incorporate the possibility of mana screw more often than I would have wanted it. The figure is a meager 3 percent (two lands) higher than the "standard" ratio which we know to be too low for Keeper. Anecdotal evidence can be supplied here that I have more than once wished to have "half a land more" to get an optimal configuration. (Half a land is approx. 0.8 % of a 60 card deck.) 61 cards/ 27 mana sources = 44.26 % mana Here are the missing 0.8 % percent, incorporated not in a 60 card body but in a 61 card body, exactly smoothing out the gap between 26 and 27 mana sources. With this percentage, mana flood AND screw are reduced to a minimum of occurences. The difference may be tiny, and some numbers crack can work out the draw percentages, but it makes a difference in real-life playing. I have not yet enough experience with 4 Scryings (3 MD, 1 SB) to say if the higher number of draw spells reduces the necessary percentage. In the last Dülmen, I never got screwed but two or three times nearly flooded. Maybe a fifth fetchland in place of the second City would help there, but that's a different problem. However, given the high commitment to White, having the fourth Tundra s 61st card is for the time being an ideal solution and overrides the disadvantage of drawing slightly more often a land, especially since Scryings most definitely counteract this. Being safe in the white mana feels just good. As for not needing 4 Angels, I agree that they sometimes clog your hand. Unless the other 5 cards are not total gas, I tend to mulligan such hands. If I have two Angels during the game, I try to cast one as fast as possible. Then it clogs the board, which is good. There is no need to hold on to an Angel longer than necessary... 4 is a lot, and I like it, although 3 + 1 Decree is the more versatile combination and most likely to get played next time. Dozer
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« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2004, 07:37:51 am » |
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I will never play with more than 60 cards. It may help your manabase but it reduces the change of drawing one of your restricted cards. Maybe the difference is minimal but I just can't imagine writing down a decklist with 61 cards.
Tom
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« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2004, 12:28:01 pm » |
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As a Keeper player without a Lotus, would you guys recommend the Angel plan without owning one? It seems like tapping three mainphase mana (not counting Drain) would be a bit of a pain in the ass against Madness/MadDragon and combo. Usually I try to set myself up for a face-smashing Balance, not a 4/5 flyer that ruins that plan.
As a random note, I run 4 Decrees and 2 Scryings in my build.
EDIT: Also, do you guys find the double white to be an issue? I ran 4 Tundra and 2 City of Brass in my build as I often hardcast Decree; with Lotus it sounds easier...
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MaxxMatt
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« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2004, 05:06:39 am » |
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that is my mana old 27's fonts mana base. 3 tundra 3 volcanic 3 underground 5 strips 1 loa 6 solomoxen 1 city of brass 4 fetch 1 island but I tried to optimize it in a different way. Planning to play this winners configuration 4 Exalted Angels 2 Shamans (3maindeck+1sideboard Skeletal Scryings) this is the test-mana configuration 7 SoloMoxen 1 Mana Crypt 3 CoB4 Fetch 3 Tundra 2 Undergound 1 Volcanic5 Strips 1 LoA Now I can produce more colorless mana to be able to lay a morphed Angel, with an high rate on taking it out in my first turn ( I can consistently have at least 2 mana on my first turn ) The previuos count of the colored mana that can be produced was: (counting moxes and no lotus) Blu:12+(4 fetch) Red:5+(4 fetch) Black:5+(+4 fetch) White:5+(+4 fetch) Fast "Colorless" Mana: 5 (4Mox + 1SolRing) Now the count is: Blu:10+(4 fetch) Red:5+(4fetch) Black:6+(4fetch) White:7+(4fetch) Fast "Colorless" Mana: 6 (4 Mox+1Crypt+1SolRing) I don't know if it is really more stable, because I tested it only during these few days, but until now, I can say that: 1) LoA is in because it is one of my "pet" cards and it can began without any problem an Island or another Underground or Volcanic for a better color fixing. It win a lot of games, so I keep it in my maindeck yet 2) I haven't any problem on Popping Up My Angels. 2W are really easy to achieve. 3) With the improving of the "speed", I was able to Morph Faster, Flip Up Angels Faster, Gain Life Faster, Draw a lot of cards Faster than before 4) Mana Crypt isn't an issue. I have Shaman to put it in the grave if needed. 7) If I would have played Decrees instead of Angels, maybe 3 or 4 of them, the better and faster mana development would have won me a lot of games too, even without the Angel LifeGain ability ( more soldiers, more angels, cicling ability to fix cards in hand and so on.. ). I don't know if it would be safe for the mana denial paln to take out the 4th Wasteland for another colored mana, keeping in the LoA. Playing with 27 mana and 61 cards ( at least until now ) didn't flood me too much. I remember of having played 12 games with this mana configuration and I flood horribly only 2 times ( and only 1 time the flood was in my initial hand, the last one consist of a HUGE stack of lands from the 4th turn of play until my sad death..  ). My 2 cents MaxxMatt
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Team Unglued - Crazy Cows of Magic since '97 -------------------- Se io do una moneta a te e tu una a me, ciascuno di noi ha una moneta Se io do un'idea a te e tu una a me, ciascuno di noi ha due idee
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Dante
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« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2004, 11:48:40 am » |
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Matt - a lot of important sideboard cards are red. If your only volcanic is destroyed, then your fetchlands can't fetch red anymore and you have to rely on drawing a COB....has this hurt at all?
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JACO
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« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2004, 06:44:58 pm » |
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Matt - a lot of important sideboard cards are red. If your only volcanic is destroyed, then your fetchlands can't fetch red anymore and you have to rely on drawing a COB....has this hurt at all? Dante, nobody plays Wastelands in Europe apparently, as evidence by these recent Top 8's: Dulmen 04-18-2004 - 8 total Wastelands in Top 8 Vienna 04-23-2004 - 13 total Wastelands in Top 8 Paris 04-25-2004 - 7 total Wastelands in Top 8 From the results I've seen, not even half of the Top 8's over the past couple of months are playing Wasteland. Therefore, I don't think it's that big of a deal if the one Volcanic Island gets destroyed, because he still has 5 more Red mana sources (3 City of Brass, 1 Black Lotus, 1 Mox Ruby). The damage done by City of Brass seems rather negligible in my opinion, especially if you're playing multiple Exalted Angels. This also makes the deck less susceptible to Choke (which is actually being somewhat used).
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MaxxMatt
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« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2004, 08:26:54 pm » |
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@Dante. You are right. Having only 1 Volcanic with 4 Fetch you have to be careful on searching for it. Thanks to some more datails about my test results, I can say to you that I tested against Stacker ( 5 Strips and 3 Petrified Fields ) and I lose some games FINALLY not for mana or colorscrew. COB are solid even if 3 is a large amount of total auto-damage (coupled with skeletals and fetch ). Unluckily for this deck, the need of the intesive use of different colors nearly contemporarily ( black and red or black and white o white and red ), forced me to rise a bit the "damage risk level". After playing I realized that, with this configuration, I usually have more damages ( with a mean of 3 or 4 more AUTO-damages ) but I have more permanents on board and often an Angel to start the beatdown. The Volcanic island usually remains on board for more time than my own Cities. If the opponent is smart and well prepared, he will not leave me the ability to cast anything I want with my own cities. he would crush them and then my volcanic. I found that some of them have the tendency to crush the white manasource or the black mana source. Red is the less feared at this moment. Black draw cards White have winners Red have answers I can think with a lot of difficulties that someone would destroy my Volcanic instead of my white or black mana. So until now, this configuration of mana satisfy myself better than I would have thought!  Finally I have all the Colors and All the speed that I need to win. Therefore, I don't think it's that big of a deal if the one Volcanic Island gets destroyed, because he still has 5 more Red mana sources (3 City of Brass, 1 Black Lotus, 1 Mox Ruby). The damage done by City of Brass seems rather negligible in my opinion, especially if you're playing multiple Exalted Angels. This also makes the deck less susceptible to Choke (which is actually being somewhat used).
JACO pretty well summarize what I want to say to you. Another intersting and positive aspect of this new configuration is is good immunity to Sunreding Titan. A lot of players here starts to test and play this build because of his extemely good strenght against Hulk-Keeper and Aggro. CoB help you against this 7/10-Armageddon! Titans are used even in some TnT's builds here in Italy and this is another good aspect. ----------------- --SIDE NOTE-- ----------------- ...Dante, nobody [/b][/u] plays Wastelands in Europe apparently[/b][/u]...
I used similar words replying to CrayCarl's words on StarcityGames a few days ago. I totally disagree with this way of reasoning. You have incomplete information about the "Denial Situation of the Europe" and you can't use Paralogisms when you should, instead, produce arguments based on More Precise and Larger Data. I'm talking for my field that is large enough to be compared to the Deutch's one. Turin 25-04-04 15 Strips Milan 18-04-04 9 Strips ( "8 strips" place 9th and 10th for rating.. ) Pavia 04-04-04 21 Strips Milan 23-03-04 20 Strips ("another 12 strips" placed 9th, 10th and 11th ) Massa 21-03-04 ~60 Strips in the top16 and so on... Take some time to visit into this site and you'll find a lot of results like these ones. As you can see, if you search different places, you can see different metagame situations that can OPEN the way to a better understanding about American and European playstyle. We don't have too many differences if you look better... 
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Team Unglued - Crazy Cows of Magic since '97 -------------------- Se io do una moneta a te e tu una a me, ciascuno di noi ha una moneta Se io do un'idea a te e tu una a me, ciascuno di noi ha due idee
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Zherbus
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« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2004, 08:55:22 pm » |
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I will never play with more than 60 cards. It may help your manabase but it reduces the change of drawing one of your restricted cards. Maybe the difference is minimal but I just can't imagine writing down a decklist with 61 cards. I couldn't agree more. Especially with the case with 4cControl, this is more like BalanceorYawgmoth'sWill.dec than ExaltedAngel.dec. Any tweaks that you can do that make these two cards show up less is less than desireable in my book.
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