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Author Topic: Type 1 in a Nut Shell  (Read 8930 times)
Dante
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« Reply #30 on: May 13, 2004, 06:29:57 pm »

Quote from: dicemanx
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In poker, if we're talking about a "mid-range once a week slightly losing or break-even-ish player" becoming a "semi-pro who consistently wins 1-2 BB (big bets)/hr playing 20 hrs/week", that can totally happen within a 6-12 month timeframe if you are dedicated to it. I've seen it happen a couple dozen times at the $10-20 and $20-40 holdem levels (it happend with myself).


A 6-12 month time frame seems optimistic, but in any case, for magic I was thinking of considerably less time and dedication that is required to achieve competency.


In my opinion, the amount of time and level of dedication required to be competitive at high levels are vastly different in most sports/games compared to magic.  

Quote
keep hearing this "playskill" word used and what I define "playskill" as is:

Knowing all the top decks' gameplans
knowing matchup details
knowing how to sideboard for important matchups


These are part of it, but lets not forget something more fundamental - understanding how to play your deck effectively and without error.


JDL sent me a PM almost the exact same thing as your last sentance, but for the most part, "playing your deck effectively and without error" is really only relevant with respect to sitting down in front of an opponent and knowing what your gameplan is against their deck (once it becomes known), not "how to play your deck" without an opponent.  Obviously knowing the basic strategies and all the options available is quite important (esp for a deck like say Dragon), but "playing without error and effectively" can't really be determined without first establishing what you're playing against.

With regards to 6-12 months for poker, I'm assuming a sharp person with a good aptitude for knowing how to learn, and that's very doable, esp at a B&M casino (vs online).

I think the reason that Type 1 has a lower "barrier to become good" if you will than games like Poker or Magic is:

1. Money - prizes for Chess and Poker tournaments are big stuff, enough that there are plenty of people who can do it for a living.  The prizes in Magic pale in comparison, esp Type 1.  There are also fewer ways to make a living doing things like writing about Magic (either books, magazines, etc) than there are poker or chess.  Think about how many copies of things like Sklansky & Malmuth books or Ruben Fine's "Basic Chess endings" (or any of the other standards) get sold as opposed to Magic books.  Best case scenario, a well know "pro" (who say wins $20,000 in prize money a year for a year or two) gets hired by WoTC.  That pales to what pros make in poker or chess.

2. Higher levels of thinking are not as important in Type 1 vs poker or chess.  Level 1 thinking is thinking about your own cards.  Level 2 thinking is thinking about what your opponent's cards are.  Level 3 is thinking about what the opponent thinks about you.  Basically level 3 thinking is what differentiates great poker players from simply good players - not only narrowing down the range of hands they could have, but also using what they think of you to extract more $ from them or lose less $ if they are ahead.

3. Decks are pre-built and luck is higher in a game of magic vs poker or chess because of the way the partial information grows.  In chess, there is no partial information - it's all out there for both players to see, board and clock.  In poker, the only hidden information (using Holdem as that's the most common form of poker these days) is the initial 2 starting cards for the players.  The rest of the cards that come are all visible to the other players (a similar arguement holds for stud with the exception of the final face down card).  But compare those to Magic, where EVERY card starts out hidden and the only way the opponent sees the card is if you play it or they have something like Duress.   In addition, a new hidden card is drawn each turn.  So couple that with the fact that Magic uses a pre-built deck (which means mediocre players can still start with great decks) and it allows for a quicker closing of the gap from average to good.
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« Reply #31 on: May 13, 2004, 07:30:57 pm »

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jpmeyer wrote:

Oh, and the other thing that makes it less skill intensive is that people rarely have to deal with creature combat.

I think that just speaks to other skills that magic has to offer. I am absolutely *atrocious* at combat. I can do the necessary calculations, but it takes me far longer than most people. You do not want to draft with me if I have drafted a slow deck becuase it will take me enormous amounts of time to figure out what to do alot of the times.  My problem is that for as long as I have played Type One, I have never played decks with many creatures that attack, or combat oriented decks. Oshawa Stompy I find very difficult to pilot, but Long.dec relatively simple.  Steve

I'm so there.
I'm really bad at playing t2 Goblins, for example. I can easily take up t1 combo or control, though. :/

As for the iportance of skill, if PLAYskill was not the determining factor, players like Maxim Barkman and Roland B couldn't have just taken up t1 without much testing and still walked through tournaments easily and repeatedly(though both have become quite firm with t1 in the meantime Wink ).

I have never played another game competetively, so I can't say anything about how easy/hard it is to become good.

In my opinion the low barrier (skillwise) to get into t1 is based strongly on the following: The over-all skilllevel of t1 players is not that of a competetive game plaayed for big sums of money. Think about it, if you compare most t1 players to Pros they're not that good (this is including me). Still our skilllevel is above that of the usual t1 player, so we win. So everybody who manages to become close to as good as we are, will start winning. The way to change that is to become better ourselves, to raise that barrier.
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« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2004, 03:55:03 am »

Speaking as a representative of the less-skilled players here at TMD, I would consider 'Stop blaming losses on luck' as step 2 on the road to becoming better just after 'Stop blaming losses on mana-screw when you are using 20 mana sources'.

There are swingy effects (or good cards as I like to call them). However the format is not about who gets off a broken card first.

Personally I fail to see how a format that has so many options (the aforementioned tutoring, card drawing and of course choice of cards from a huge card pool) is less skill intensive than a format without significant tutors and with the same card drawing engine being employed by most people. Type 2 is all about your opening hand far more so than Type I (obvious your opening hand is very important in Type I but it is more a case that your opening hand is good if it offers you the chance to utilise the rest of your deck whereas Type II is about utilising those 7/8 cards).

I regularly play with newbies and even though it feels like most games 'go with the cards' I can usually win 75% of games using simple decks (i.e. I still win most games even after we switch decks, I have been known to 'forget' to play some cards to allow a new player to win though). As players improve they improve this ratio, but someone who understands the rules but has little to no Type I experience would be slaughtered if we used Type I decks (as in less than 10% wins). This is an extreme case but I believe that skill plays a far larger part in Magic than most people realise.
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