[Deck] WelderMUD - Can it be viable again?

[KrauserKrauser]

Well, one possible solution for the discard might come in the form of the new 'Core.  If nothing else it is always a 5/5 first striking body.

[Erdrick]

My concern is that the Portal looks great, but at 8 mana, it would almost have to be Welded in, and WelderMUD doesn't have the discard method, unless you move to R/U, but then you are at the Slaver or 7/10 engine again.  Wheel of Fortune and Memory Jar are the only ways to discard the Portal to weld it back into play.  Thoughts?

I am not sure, is [card]Gamble[/card] a viable option? It provides search to an extent, which is missing with the absence of blue. It also can discard, but not very reliably unless Gamble was the only card in your hand when you cast it. (I would not recommend using it to search for the Goblin Welder.)

[Thug]

I think welder mud should run Possessed Portal.

How would you incorporate it in Koen?

8    Possessed Portal    Artifact                                (Artifact Rare)
If a player would draw a card, that player skips that draw instead.<br> At the
end of each turn, each player sacrifices a permanent unless he or she
discards a card from his or her hand.  

I haden't really put any thought into this card yet, actually I was too lazy to look it up in the 5D spoiler  
So all I cas say about it, is what comes up to me when I look at the card.

At first sight it seems more like a Slaver-like card to me, a 1 card lock. And it might thus be better in a deck totally build around it.

In Welder-MUD you'll have a hard time casting this with all the disruptive tools you're playing. Aside from the lucky first turn Metalworker I don't often have 8 mana spare.

It's like a smokestack on crack, but it also effects you, so without Welder you'll have a hard time maintaining it. The thing I always liked about Smokestack is that I would never have trouble with it if I left it at 1 counter during the whole game.

Why do you think this fit's into WMUD steve? Care to explain a little bit more. And what do other people that have played/tested Welder-MUD think about this?

----

On Mono-brown MUD.

It's back! I swear, it coud be a metagame breakin' choice right now. Control Slaver decks run only 17 land, and recently some people even went do to 16. Thats just asking for some disruption.

I have incorperated Triskelions into the maindeck now, and I really like the beatdown element this has added to the deck. Sometimes just a Trinisphere and a Tanglwe Wire can buy you enough time to win the game. Having multiple Triskelions maindeck also gives you more tools against Welder and Shamans.

I dare to say that the deck has even to favourble matchups against what most people see as the top-decks now. I realize that most of these decks are not prepared for MUD while MUD is prepared for them, but this at least people would have to prepare for MUD if played again.

Chalice for 1 is simply amazing in most matchups. You only have Sol Ring and Mana Vault in that spot. Where you often take out Welder, Brainstorm, Ancestral, Mystical, Sol Ring/Mana Vault, Shaman, Swords etc. This can very wel be compared to Workshop Slaver that can drop Chalice for 2 without having any trouble from it itself, but I think chalice for 1 is even more amazing since it takes care of the things you most fear (welders). Against Keeper and Slaver chalice for 1 wins you games.

I will need to polish it some more, but maybe I'll try it in a local tourney tonight and see how it does against some random.decs

Koen

[Thug]

I went to the tourney yesterday night and went 3-1.

The only match I lost was to my own deck  , against suicide I won the first game after answering his first turn duress-shade with a trinisphere and a lot of disruption. The shade beated me to 5 before a Smokestack and a Karn could stabilize and finish the job.

Second game I mullied down to a terrible 5, but didn't want to go any lower. I battled against a Null Rod with a Winter Orb and a Karn slowing him down severly. But when he was able to oxidize two karns in a row he finally found the gap he needed to do me the final damage.

Third game I mulliganned down to 1!!!. My first seven weren't all that bad, but a single land destruction spell could have won the game for him. So I went down to six and proceeded to go down to 1 before seeing a hand with more than 2 mana in it. My one card was lotus... (off course he dropped Null Rod first turn and I lost pretty bad)

The other three matches went as they should have, often the only real possibilty for my opponent to play a spel was their first turn. And against a mono-blue control deck I actually stopped him from playing any spell the whole match. (all I saw was islands and him discarding counterspells  )

After the tournament I played against the winner (a deck very simular to the new Exalted Angel keeper) and I won 2-1. In the third game I totally wrecked him with a first turn chalice for 1, making three cards in his hand useless.

The game he won he started with a lot of mana acceleration and I was facing two morphs on turn 2 (it made Mana Crypt look really good!). I tried to keep them at bay with double wire and a Winter Orb, but my smokestack came about two turns to late to safe me.

Aside from the single match the deck performed pretty good, and while I must admit most of the decks I played weren't what you call topdecks, I had starts that would have ment trouble to most deck.

Koen

[Covetous]

Is the only reason to play WMud over Stax (UR or URb) simply that basic mountains allow more color consistency at the loss of explosiveness and card draw?  If so, then is it really worth it?  If someone wants to use a wasteland to deprive you of colored sources, your workshop laughs at them.  And then so does your smokestack/tangle wire/sphere lock.  And your own wastelands.  I think the crucible is a worthwile addition, as a 1 or 2-of (perhaps).  But again, I think that a deck with card draw is better than a deck without card draw.  I admit that the use of metalworker in WMud is cool--you can crap out your lock on turn 2.  But thirst + welder = broken.  Mind's eye can certainly be a cool way to draw cards (haha you cast brainstorm I laugh at you), but it is fairly expensive and the requirement for activation makes it occasionally sub-optimal.

Again, I re-iterate--why would you forego tinker, blue power and TFK just to run metalworker and have more basic lands?  Is it really worth it?

[defector]

Good luck with the desigh and try to ignore the people that want this to be a slaver thread rather than a welder/mid thread.  I played welder mud as well as stax and slavery.  I find that for me at least preference played as large a role as many of the off topic arguments that are cluttering this thread.  I prefer slaver because I'm a selfish asshole instead of a hard core control freak, I want to play even shitty aggro turns.  Possessed portal belongs in welder/mud, I don't see room it in mono-mud, maybe replacing smokestack as they play similar roles, but the curve requires an active metal worker, something I found a luxury when I was playing this deck.
Good luck, if keeper got resurected I'm sure weldermud/mono-mud can as well
defector

[AggressiveDude]

Ok guys we can start
Thug you are the number one Priority on W/mud can you give us a new decklist?
I also looked at 5D but there was nothing(Cruncible will not see any play I think)
This is the Version I am currently testing.

W/mud 2k4
Mana Base:

1 Academy
4 Shops
4 Wastelands
1 Strip Mine
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mountain(could be great furnance since the top decks dont play wastelands)
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
28

Creatures
4 Welder
4 Metalworker
3 Triskelion
11

 
The Lock
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice of the Void Don´t play less then 4!
4Sphere of Resistance
16

Draw
4 Skullcap
1 Memory Jar
5

sb:
1 Trisk
4 Rack and Ruin
4 Tormonds Crypt
4 Trinisphere
2 Random Slots:Rebs,Blood Moon->Metagame


The Choices
4 Chalice:I dont think I need to Comment that but yes sometimes you draw to much of them but you need to draw at least one against every single machtup you have to drop a chalice(or lets say it is good in nearly every machtup and it often wins you games)
4 Sphere of Resistance:I found out that this card is a lot better than Trinisphere.Yes IMO
Trinisphere is hyped.Ok if a Trini comes turn 1-2 it is more usefull but Spheres are more usefull in lategame sphere are more usefull agains any other Workshop Deck and multiple Spheres are also annoying for your oppenent.
3 Trisk:Welders,FCG,Fish...I want to play 4 but I cant find the place where I could fit it.
4 Tangle:Yes,well mostly it can hold down Combo until you can lock them sometimes,then it can do the same thing with FCG and it allowes you(sometimes) to play threads while they can play counterspells.It also holds down an early Deed which can be very devastating if they drain someting.
4Skullcap:Another interresting aspect well you need to draw since you dont play any blue I always thought that 4 Skullcaps are neccesary.
And in this metagame it just is better than Mindseye since Hurklys recall isnt played anymore in Hulks Sb.

Sb:1 Trisk:against any kind of aggro fish I am not sure but I would not board the 4th one againt any slavery/stax,Welder Mud deck.
4 Trinispheres:This card is really good but only in some machtups.
4Rack and Ruin:Yeah cmon Workshop.dec since I wanna drop early threads I think that this is better than Shattering Pulse(or w/e the buyback card is called).Allthough maybe 4 is to much.
4 Tormonds Crypt:Hulk,Dragon maybe 3 would be good


Ok enaugh for know i will edit it later(cards left behind,random thoughts maybe machtup etc)  

[Thug]

Thug you are the number one Priority on W/mud can you give us a new decklist?

Nope, because I have put little to no time into a new version of Welder-MUD. IMO (traditional) mono-brown MUD is the better choice right now. I have posted decklists and my ideas on that deck a couple of times already, so I hate to have to repeat it again.

But very short, Mono-Brown MUD seems superior right now since it has a lot more early disruption and the current top-deck are a little light on mana. You need to take advantage of this by shutting down their manupilation (chalice for 1), and attacking them as early as possible in general.

[rant]I swear, you'd be suprised how many games Chalice for 1 can win when brought out first turn[/rant]

I have done little testing with Crucible in MUD, so there's not much I can about it yet. But I don't see it as a gamebreaking card in MUD as it can be in other decks (where I have been working on   ). I has to compete with cards that are almost never dead (one of MUD's main strengths). In a deck with no search and close to no draw and only ±8 land (if you go up to 3 cities) that really benefit from the crucible I don't think the card is really worth it. It's neat to keep your smokestack working but Skullcap does the same work, and is good at itself too. It's neat with Wastelands, but as said before, the odds at getting this are too little without draw/tutoring.

Koen

p.s.

4 Mountain(could be great furnance since the top decks dont play wastelands)

Great Furnace is a very bad idea with the amount of null rods and artifact hate around

Not playing Trinispheres maindeck also seems very odd to me

[AggressiveDude]

Thug you are the number one Priority on W/mud can you give us a new decklist?

Nope, because I have put little to no time into a new version of Welder-MUD. IMO (traditional) mono-brown MUD is the better choice right now. I have posted decklists and my ideas on that deck a couple of times already, so I hate to have to repeat it again.

But very short, Mono-Brown MUD seems superior right now since it has a lot more early disruption and the current top-deck are a little light on mana. You need to take advantage of this by shutting down their manupilation (chalice for 1), and attacking them as early as possible in general.

[rant]I swear, you'd be suprised how many games Chalice for 1 can win when brought out first turn[/rant]

I have done little testing with Crucible in MUD, so there's not much I can about it yet. But I don't see it as a gamebreaking card in MUD as it can be in other decks (where I have been working on   ). I has to compete with cards that are almost never dead (one of MUD's main strengths). In a deck with no search and close to no draw and only ±8 land (if you go up to 3 cities) that really benefit from the crucible I don't think the card is really worth it. It's neat to keep your smokestack working but Skullcap does the same work, and is good at itself too. It's neat with Wastelands, but as said before, the odds at getting this are too little without draw/tutoring.

Koen

p.s.

4 Mountain(could be great furnance since the top decks dont play wastelands)

Great Furnace is a very bad idea with the amount of null rods and artifact hate around

Not playing Trinispheres maindeck also seems very odd to me

I totaly Agree on the Cruncible aspect with you but I dont see the big deal with 3sphere.When it comes down turn 1 it can win games it is also a house when it comes down turn 2 but even on turn 3 its pretty much uselless.And 2 copies are also bad(yes you can weld them out but u mostly have enaugh permanents to Weld out).
IMO the spheres of resistance are a lot better.Sphere of resistance is good in the early games  and in the late game.
Multiple Spheres really hurt the oppenent.It is also annoying for them if they cant play any shit and you play out your hand with a metalworker.Yes you can do the same thing with 3 sphere but it happens a lot more with sphere of resitance on the table.
And if you play 4x grafted skullcaps you will probably play out more than one sphere.

and on the Great Furnace aspect I think you are right but I think is a viable option if the Top-Decks(Slavery,Tog,Draw7) are rampant in your Meta.
Lets look at the Art Removal that these decks play:
Slavery:Plays Rack and Ruin and they rarely try to kill your lands with Rack and Ruin since they have to get rid of your lock cards.
Tog:Pretty much the same but they also run Art Mutation(and they won Art Mut your Great furnace).
Draw7.dec:Uses Oxidize and as far as I know they always keep their Oxidize for Chalice,Sphere of Resitance and 3 Sphere.

hint:I consider great furnace as an option because of its synergy with Academy and the Metal workers.

[Thug]

totaly Agree on the Cruncible aspect with you but I dont see the big deal with 3sphere.When it comes down turn 1 it can win games it is also a house when it comes down turn 2 but even on turn 3 its pretty much uselless.And 2 copies are also bad(yes you can weld them out but u mostly have enaugh permanents to Weld out).

read this again.

3sphere coming down turn3?. If you got one in your openinghand you want to drop i asap. And this often means turn 1 (workshop, crypt, lotus, vault, mox + 2 mana land etc) and if not you should drop it turn 2.

You can draw it later on, but you should have the opponent in such a position that the 3sphere still hurts them. That's the whole idiology of the deck. Later on they are everything but dead. They stop FoW's and other free spells. They make Smokestack that much better, they lock down the opponent when combined with Tangle Wire.

They useless when you're losing, true, but almost every card is. The deck want to get a soft/hard lock on the opponent, and every component is part of that strategy, so once this fails there's not much you can do (aside from dropping Karn and going beatdown)

A lot of decks plays either Shaman or Null Rod, which make Furnace a very bad idea. It's just not worth it.

Koen

[Bobduh]

The problem with drawing it later on is that with a draw engine in place, you most likely already passed through and played one, and with 3sphere the second is a totally dead draw. With Sphere of Resistance the second is at potent as the first, and when you're cycling through your deck with a skullcap, you want to be able to use everything you find to its full effectiveness. A second 3sphere costs as much as a second Sphere of Resistance, and in a prison deck it's a very common occurence to run into a second copy of whichever sphere you're running.

[AggressiveDude]

Bobduh seems to think the way I do but like Thug sad Trinisphere is usefull in the lategame because of all the Free spells.
It is also good if you play it after you played the lock cards since they if you have a smokestack in play they cant lay their cheap moxes,lotus.sol ring that easy and this might be the key against thoose decks.
I still prefer the Sphere and I also prefer dripping a Metalworker turn 1 instead of Trinisphere against most of the decks.Bobduh already sad it with a 4xGrafted Skullcap Engine you will draw a 2nd Trinisphere.
If a Metalworker comes down turn 1 without getting countered you have a big chance of winning the game against tog even against combo.

I think the debate is not New Welder Mud/Old Welder Mud I think it is Sphere of Resistance/3sphere/both.

I´ll try to compare these Cards and check the metagame.
vs Tog:Yeah 3sphere will probably hurt them if it comes down first 2 turns.It will probably win the game for you.But most of the time you dont play out the 3sphere on the first turns and in lategame 3sphere isnt much of a Problem.And most of the Key spells that this deck uses are 3mana.My Opinion is that in the Tog Machtup the Sphere of Resistance is better.And the reason is Cunning Wish.Cunning Wish could get them Artifact Mutation,Rack and Ruin and even worse it can get a Hurkly´s.Please renember that all of these cards could Win the Game against you.

Combo:I havent tested this Machtup that much but it seems like 3sphere seems to be a little bit better than sphere of res. because of all the acc this deck needs.
But Im not even sure in this case.Since they drop a lot 0 mana spells first turn 3sphere will not do that much against them.Key Cards like Timetwister,Goblin Charbelcher,Minds Desire,Tendrils of agony...they all have cc 3 or more.And the sphere of Res. is 2cc so it has a bigger chance on comming down turn 1 which is(yeah mostly is) is also gg against 2Land Belcher(the probably strogest combo deck in the format).


Slavery:
I think Sphere of Resi. is a bit better in this machtup since they have a big amount of spells which are >2cc.Trinisphere will only slow down some acceleration some welders(on both sides) and FoW.


just my 2 cents..

[Corwin]

Leaving the Trinisphere vs. Sphere of Resistance arguement behind, along with the Grafted Skullcap vs. Mind's Eye, let's look at the latests decklist to see what other changes should be made.

I have included 2x Razormane Masticore's, as the Bolt ability is not turned off by a Null Rod, and the the bolt + a 5/5 First Striker, it should WRECK Gay/R Fish, which is my worst matchup.  I have also re-added the Jester's Cap to the SB, as I do love the card, and it can just win games vs. Tog or Keeper.  Scrap has replaced Rack & Ruin, as it cycles, and Fire/Ice has been added to the board.

Corwin's WelderMUD

//Creatures - 12//
4x Goblin Welder
4x Metalworker
2x Karn, Silver Golem
2x Razormane Masticore
 
//The Lock - 16//
4x Sphere of Resistance (or Trinisphere, depending on your preference)
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Tangle Wire
4x Smokestack

//Card Drawing - 5//
3x Mind's Eye (or Grafted Skullcap, depending on your preference)
1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Memory Jar

//Mana Sources - 27//
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Emerald

1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Sol Ring

1x Tolarian Academy
7x Mountain
4x Mishra's Workshop
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
1x City of Traitors


//Sideboard - 15//
3x Scrap
3x Tormod's Crypt
4x Red Elemental Blast (or Ensnaring Bridge, if you run Grafted Skullcap)
3x Fire/Ice
2x Jester's Cap (or Duplicant)


Again, PLEASE let's stay on the topic of WelderMUD.  Not Slavery, or 7/10, or the other U/R Workshop decks.  And PLEASE let the 3Sphere/Sphere arguement die.  I have included BOTH in the decklist so that you will leave it alone... and I don't care if you only run 3x 3Sphere, I want to run Sphere of Resistance.  It fits my playstyle and it fits my metagame better.  

So your help on THIS decklist would be most appreciated.

Thanks,
Corwin

[AggressiveDude]

Corwin you added The Razormane Masticore to your list.Because I did not.Could you please inform us if the razormane is a better choice the trisk or the old masticore?
I think the Trisk is the best of these cards since it has Instant Speed .If my Meta would me full of G@Y Fish I would play Razormanes sb.

[Thug]

Having a Sphere of Resistance versus Trinisphere argument in totally unnecessairy IMO. You simply need both, if you still rather have red in the deck you could try running (only) 7, but otherwise the're just too good too ignore.

Razormane Masticore seems like a decent sideboard card, but is not worth it maindeck, it's terrible with Skullcap, which forces you to run Mind's Eye, which is simply too mana intensive and too slow.

Also I wouldn't (automaticly) include wheel anyomre, between Slaver and Dragon, but even Tog, there are too many decks that take advantage of this card, and Wheel can cause you to lose a lot of tempo.

Scrap???
Trisk > Fire/Ice. Serated Arrows > Fire/Ice.

Koen

[Corwin]

@AggressiveDude - Yes, I have included Razormane Masticores in the decks as my biggest problem is against Gay/R Fish (which is VERY prevalent in my area), and the reason is that both Triskelion and the old Masticore's abilities are turned off with a Null Rod in play (and yes, they manage to drop the Null Rod damn near every time I don't drop a Turn-1 or 2 Chalice for 2.

@Thug - I don't like running both Spheres.  I have tested the 3Sphere, and it just does not work for me.  Also, I prefer Mind's Eye to Skullcap... a play choice of my own.  Yes, if I was running Skullcaps then Masticore's are a bad idea.  You may be right about Wheel of Fortune... I am wondering what the "right" card is to put back in the deck then?  Another Karn/Masticore... the 4th Mind's Eye (Skullcap) or a different 1-of?

Corwin

[Bobduh]

Perhaps Pentavus as the final 1-of? It's a 5/5 workshop-castable body even with Null Rod on the table, and sans Rod it can make its own army, nullify the effect of pumping up a Smokestack, nullify any negative side effects you may suffer from a Tangle Wire, block any curious flying beasties heading your way, and smash face all in one. Against Null Rod the Pentavus takes a beating in quality, but at the very least it's a 5/5 body. And if they don't get out the Null Rod, Pentavus will punish them for it dearly. It almost seems to have more utility uses in a sacrificial prison deck then Slaver, and you can pump up a Smokestack to three or so counters without fear as long as you have a welder on the table. Plus you have free reign to make cool flying Pentavite tokens to humiliate your opponent with  

[Corwin]

@Bobduh - for the final 1-of, Pentavus.... why not go 1 mana more to Sundering Titan at that point?  

But seriously, I am still having problems vs. fish.  The Masticore can work, but I'm not convinced.  I keep thinking of putting Gorilla Shaman's back in to eat Null Rods (my biggest fear), but they are fragile as a 1/1 (So are the Welders, for that matter). But to drop a Shaman and eat a Null Rod is 6 non-workshop mana, which is hard to do.

I talked to PTW after my last Top8, losing to fish, and his suggestion was FAT.  He said that Fish (especially Gay/R Fish, which shows all the time in my area) rolls to Fat - SuiChi, 7/10, 'core's... Juggernauts have a small butt, so with an active Lavamancer it's a 1-to-1, but anything 4-butt of bigger starts making a 2-to-1 or better trade... and I can weld back.

What about 5th Dawn... other than Possessed Portal, si there anything in 5D that might help?

[Jacob Orlove]

What about 5th Dawn... other than Possessed Portal, si there anything in 5D that might help?

Razormane Masticore seems like a perfect fit.

[AggressiveDude]

I dont see the deal with Razormane what makes it better than allround mox muncher game winer mega blocker karn?

[Kowal]

Karn doesn't kill goblin welders, fish dorks, and goblin piledrivers.

[Jacob Orlove]

Karn doesn't kill goblin welders, fish dorks, and goblin piledrivers.

Also, Karn doesn't do anything if Null Rod is out.

[Bobduh]

Razormane Masticore will not kill the Piledrivers in time. I would only really like to see the Razormane during the Fish matchup (Null Rods)- otherwise I reaaaaly like my Triskelions. I might be biased here, but I'd much rather keep the Razormanes in reserve for the couple Null Rod matches, and let Triskelion do welding tricks and kill the piledrivers during the one active turn they need (Razormane kills them one each upkeep, and you're biiiiiig dead by then).

[MadManiac21]

Ok,
    So we're looking at reviving a welderMUD build that can compete with the likes of the slaver decks that have been flying around. Different win conditions have been looked at, such as karn, titans, razormane masticore, etc. What I am very highly suprised that has not yet to come up in this thread is a GREAT new addition from darksteel that is clean-cut, perfectly designed for this deck. I wasn't going to bring it up, as myself and some of the other TH members have been throwing around some ideas, but I figure that I hadn't seen a weldermud thread in a couple months...and now that one has been started, might as well share the wealth.

Arcbound Crusher
4
Whenever another artifact comes into play, put a +1/+1 counter on this.
Modular 1

Testing with wMud and monobrown stacker has shown some very interesting results with this card.

It is not stopped by null rod. If anything, it laughs at it. Null rod actually adds on another counter to this. With workshops and mountains you can continue to keep casting your artifact spells, which when looking at the lists here is essentially everything barring the goblin welders and the mana sourves. This card is literally metalworker's lifepartner. If you drop a metalworker and then this dude, or one after another in close sucession, he grows to enormous sizes. He also has the added bonus of moving his counters around to other guys after he dies. This gives him undeniable synergy with triskelion, basically giving you a way to give trike back rapid machinegun abilities after he has already unloaded his clip. He can even move his counters onto a metalworker or a titan, or whatever other artifact creatures you chose to play with.
Arcbound crusher also gets bigger when you weld stuff back into play.

He looks to be the card this deck is looking for; the trampling ability stops weenie decks such as gay/r or other fish variants from just chumping a large dude (a la sundertitan) and still pinging you for damage every turn, winning the damage race.

I also love the fact that your opponents artifact spells make him bigger. If crusher is in play and your combo opponent is attempting to go off and fails, they will have mose likely grown him somewhere between 3-6 more +1/+1 counters. This guy also makes the workshops mirror/matchup more in your advantage (barring welders, as usaully the first player to get those down is able to abuse the playing field). Having opponents make your kill conditions more potent is always nice.

Testing has shown him to be a huge asset to wMud builds I have been toying around with the past couple weeks IMO. I personally wouldn't go back to karn after him, although that may just be personal preference. I just think the fact that null rod doesn't affect him is one of his greatest attributes, and is something we cannot ignore.

[WildWillieWonderboy]

I believe that the only way to make dubmud viable -- that is, capable of beating the top tier reliably -- it has to be able to beat the force. While trinisphere certainly helps with this, it too can be countered. Since the deck can't really use forces itself (or blue period for that matter), and duress is also none to appealing, it seems like just overall threat density would be the key, so Crusher seems like cool beans. Instead of going for a full lock, the deck should use artifact-based disruption to hamper the development of the opponent while dropping bombs that directly threaten the life total. So crusher + pentavus seems pretty d@mn good.

[Thug]

IMO force is not a real threat, if you're able to keep your opponents off drain mana, what does it matter if they force a card?

Card like Rack and Ruin and Welder are much more of a threat which is why all should be done to attack the opponents mana base early and heavy (hence 8 spheres)

Koen

[skecreatoR]

It matters everything.

The problem is not really mid-game where you are "keeping off drain mana" (to use your own words), but the first piece you are going to drop. If your 3S or other stuff get countered, you just got reset. Any deck relying on Drain Mana will, if the deck is anything close to well build, be online in the second turn, and a first turn force of the lock component stops wMUDs progress rigth there.

[Thug]

FoW + Drain happens, deal with it. If it wouldn't we would al be playing Workshop decks. If they go first and force your first threat (which you off course play on turn 1) they will get drain mana. And aside from a wasteland you won't be able to stop it, and you will be in a bad position.

First turn resolving Trinisphere happens too, so what.

But if you're opponent only has a Drain and not a Force you want to make sure that he will not be able to cast the drain. Herefore you have to run the maximum of Wastes, Spheres and Chalices.

Oh and to quote the dutchies, turn 1 is the midgame! Shuffling is the early game and anything beyond turn 2 is the late game.

Koen

[skecreatoR]

Love that quote.

I quite agree with you here. When playing matches in tournaments, it will be dead sure that every deck holding a FoW won't be able to draw it or play it the first turn. Neither will the deck, in some cases, not be able to Drain on the second turn.

But in playtesting, on the other hand, you need for maximation of raw power, as this is what wMUD is based on, to play against deck holding Turn1 FoW, Turn2 Drain and so forth, but of course only to a certain extinct.

But even then, statistics go against MUD, as to top8 - Hybrid Power (FCG) or FoW(everything else). I just don't think MUD can go into beatdown mode, while not becoming blasted around by everything else. I think that is the problem as it is, because it isn't hybrid - and that is probably why Drain Slaver is going to Top8 a lot more often.

[Thug]

But even then, statistics go against MUD, as to top8 - Hybrid Power (FCG) or FoW(everything else). I just don't think MUD can go into beatdown mode, while not becoming blasted around by everything else. I think that is the problem as it is, because it isn't hybrid - and that is probably why Drain Slaver is going to Top8 a lot more often.

Sorry, I lost you before being to able to fininsh reading this paragrafh. But what I get from it is that you see it as a weakness that MUD is devoted to a single goal and will do anything to forfill that goal. You're right it isn't a hybrid, but it does have beatdown. One of the strength is that a single Karn can turn the whole deck into beatdown. And thus a single Karn can change your gameplan drasticly, and the game drasticly.

I think the reason why Drain Slaver makes a lot more top8 because it's played soo much more. It requires relativly very few cards you don't need for other decks and it isn't all that hard to play. So people can just pick up the deck and do decent with it.

I also think your trying to say that Drain Slaver is better because it is more of an hybrid than MUD is, but I think Drain-Slaver's (btw. better call it control slaver before we get into those arguments again  ) beatdown plan is clearly weaker than MUD's.

Koen