Fish Creature Choices

[Zeke]

A lot of debate has gone on recently about the creatures that can be used in Fish, mostly the GayR fish varients.  Let's take a look.

Cloud of Faries: Used in nearly every build since the beginning of time (to my knowledge)
Pros - Usually comes into play for 0 mana involvement (how many people would actually counter it), evasion, can cycle if it doesn't need to see play.
Cons - 2 mana for a 1/1 flyer with no extra in-play abilites.

Spiketail Hatchling: considered a stable by some
Pros - Free force spike/daze ability on a 1/1 flyer for only 1U.  Good synergy with Daze.
Cons - Only 1 extra mana, which sometimes can be achieved.

Voidmage Prodigy: debated spot in most mainboards
Pros - hard counter that can attack for 2, morph for suprise-ability.
Cons - 1 toughness.

Rootwater Thief: Left out of most GayR builds
Pros - can give self evasion, can remove vital combo pieces
Cons - very mana intensive to give evasion and use ability.

Razorfin Hunter: Possible replacement for Lavamancer?
Pros: Free pinging, comes active turn 3
Cons - only 1 point of damage, mana cost hard to accomplish.

Grim Lavamancer: Best pinger in T1?
Pros: 2 points of damage, "drawback" nearly negligitable
Cons: sometimes won't get active.

What other cards are possible choices for the creatures, and which do you think are the best?

[rvs]

About your Cloud of Faeries assesment: I actually have had enough situations in testing where I would simply counter the Cloud, since it takes away a lot of their Tempo. I've done it a lot in Tog on Fish and UG Madness on Fish, and I still think it's a good play.

Isn't Lavamancer a wizard? That would make him an auto-inclusion next to the Voidmage Prodigy (which I like a lot in Fish).

I'd say the best creature base is:

4 Cloud
4 Voidmage
4 Spiketail
3-4 Lavamancer

I'm not sure you need 4 Lavamancer, 3 might suffice, since you already run Fire/Ice right?
Either way, I'm no expert on Fish though.

[Wollblad]

I would say you have forgotten Goblin Vandal. In an artifact heavy metagame, he seems better than both Voidmage and Spiketail. Dropping it on turn one against Workshop Slaver or Stax will give you a severe advantage. This is based on my experience from playing artifact based decks, but in general, I fear Vandal much more than Voidmage or Spiketail. An alternative to Vandal is Gorilla Shaman which is a better choice agianst control decks. If not in main, either one of them should be in the sideboard.

[Jacob Orlove]

About your Cloud of Faeries assesment: I actually have had enough situations in testing where I would simply counter the Cloud, since it takes away a lot of their Tempo. I've done it a lot in Tog on Fish and UG Madness on Fish, and I still think it's a good play.

Thank you. So many times, if my opponents had just countered the cloud, they would have had a huge advantage. Remember, it's not a "free" creature, it's a 1/1 that adds 2 mana to your pool.

[Zeke]

Nice responses to my assesment of Cloud of Faeries, I have yet to have my clouds countered so I was going purely on experience.

Now, I forgot a couple because I typed htis up randomly today in a class while i was supposed to be working, so I did leave a few out.

Goblin Vandal and Gorilla Shaman wre left off, both of which are major additions.

I run 4x Lavamancer in my deck because i only have 2x fire/ice in the side.  I would like to include fire/ice mainboard, but i don't have room for it right now.

Now, I saw someone running Razorfin Hunter in their deck...and I fell in love with the card once I saw apoc...so I wanted to know how that fits into the decks.

And what do you think is better, Goblin Vandal or Gorilla Shaman.  I run shaman in my build (mostly because they have them) because, while they are mana intensive, you can use them whenever you want.  Plus it's nice to pay 1 colorless to blow up a mox (or a chalice, for that matter)

[Phantom Tape Worm]

About your Cloud of Faeries assesment: I actually have had enough situations in testing where I would simply counter the Cloud, since it takes away a lot of their Tempo. I've done it a lot in Tog on Fish and UG Madness on Fish, and I still think it's a good play.

Thank you. So many times, if my opponents had just countered the cloud, they would have had a huge advantage. Remember, it's not a "free" creature, it's a 1/1 that adds 2 mana to your pool.

I've also had opponents counter a 2nd turn cloud thinking they're somehow making a brilliant play, all the while I'm silently laughing to myself as they outplay themselves.  There are hands where I need cloud to resolve and there are hands where I'm happy to trade her to countermagic.  Now I'm asking my counter wielding opponent to guess which hand I'm holding.

Cloud is more than just a 1/1 that adds two mana when you cast her;  she can also be a mana fixer, a manland pump spell, a free draw with an active library, a draw closer to a manland under standstill, and apparently she can also be a head fake that can cause your opponent to misplay.

Would I cut her?  No.  I believe she is the best creature for the slot with flying men as her closest competition.

[boink0r]

I currently run gay/r with this creature base (as from t8 at EC Champs)

4 Cloud
4 Spiketail
4 Lavamancer
2 Voidmage
1 Mox Monkey

I think one of the greatest things about this deck is the ability to completely customize the creature base depending on the meta.  I see a lot of jank in my meta so after a lot of testing, this creature base has had the most success.  But, there are a lot of other creatures that can replace some of the slots.  IE: vandal, suq'ata, razorfin, rootwater, etc.  I think there is no "perfect" creature base, but a culmination of different creatures that can be used depending on the metagame.

[wuaffiliate]

i ran this creature base at waterbury:

        4 Grim Lavamancer
        4 Cloud of Faeries
        4 Spiketail Hatchling
        2 Gorilla Shaman
        1 Magus of the Unseen

it was so great, shaman is way too under used. i dont really find any reason to use voidmage, he would have been worse than magus and shamen at waterbury.

i also went:

tap loa: draw card
cast cloud: untap loa and volcanic
tap loa: draw card
cast cloud: untap loa and volcanic
tap loa: draw card
cast cloud: untap loa and volcanic
tap loa: draw card
cast cloud: untap loa and volcanic
tap loa: draw card
cast cloud: untap loa and volcanic

against landstill at waterbury he chained my cloud that had curiosity on it so i could do it a 5th time. that was over 2 turns.

oh and razorfin isnt a replacement for grimy, grim lavamancer is superior, razorfin should replace other slots, depending on the meta.

[Hi-Val]

Vandals usually end up being better than shamans in my experience. Shamans are great at stopping combo and Hulk, granted. Vandals are much better though against Stax/Slaver because they eat the essential Smokestacks and Gilded Lotuses. The workshop matchup is harder for Fish, so I run Vandals instead of Shamans because combo/Hulk is a much easier matchup.

[M]

I actually have had enough situations in testing where I would simply counter the Cloud, since it takes away a lot of their Tempo.

It can be a good play to counter the Cloud. The first time a Cloud gets countered one is a little surprised. After that you learn to take the possibility into account. If your setup is vulnerable to Cloud getting countered on turn 2, you just go Lavamancer/Flying Men plus Waste/Stifle instead, and save the Cloud for later use.
I consider 4 Cloud of Faeries, 4 Flying Men, and 4 Grim Lavamancer mandatory. All other creatures are subject to debate, these three are not.

[sparticus216]

I have been running a simple:
3 Grims
4 Clouds
3 Spiketails

i was wondering about Razorfin Hunter, and how easy it was to pull of early, which in most cases a somewhat weak manabase. Because a Turn 2 pinger i think, would be more effective than the lavamancer which is very prone to be prevented from using its ability.

[sparticus216]

I have been running a simple:
3 Grims
4 Clouds
3 Spiketails

i was wondering about Razorfin Hunter, and how easy it was to pull of early, which in most cases a somewhat weak manabase. Because a Turn 2 pinger i think, would be more effective than the lavamancer which is very prone to be prevented from using its ability.

[Hi-Val]

It's VERY risky to cut creatures with Curiosity in the deck, a big reason why Grim is in and Fire/Ice is not. I find anything under 14 to be too few.

[Ifflejink]

I  run Mon-U and my creature base is as follows:
4x Flying Men
4x Spiketail Hatching
4x Voidmage Prodigy
4x Cloud of Faeries
I know that many are removng Voidmage, but he comes in handy for me. Usually, the two mana required for his ability really doesn't mean much, plus it can be used under a Standstill. As for Cloud of Faeries, it's often free, it's useful for cycling, curiosity, and can be played just before a Standstill. I don't see any reason to remove it, at all.

[TheRock]

Thre are a few more creatures to talk about as well.

Magus of the Unseen and Viashino Heretic are just screaming to see play.  They are both great cards against artifacts.  Heretic is a great target for Curiosity, and Magus can force a player to lose to their own fat.

There are so much many options against Stax, BFD, Slaver, and so forth that it comes down to picking the right mix of poisons for the job.

Spiketail Hatchling is a card that Fish should try to run four of it at all feasible.

[Moxlotus]

Currently I use:
4-Cloud
4-Lavamancer
3-Hatchling
3-Kai

However, I am going to try replacing Kai with Flying Men to see how that works out.  In theory it seems better because we all pretty much agree for the most part Kai isn't impressive.  Flying Men would add another 1 drop and it is used in mono blue and WTF.dec.  Has anybody tried it with a creature base like this?

[Raven Fire]

Waterfront Bouncer should be considered as a sideboard card.  It can help provide Lavamancer food and really forces the Standstill issue.

[Zeke]

I currently run

4x Spiketail Hatchling
4x Cloud of Faeries
4x Grim Lavamancer
2x Voidmage Prodigy
2x Gorilla Shaman

The voidmage isn't as impressive as I first saw...what do you think would be the best replacement?  I wold like to test out razorfin hunter, and just 2 is not a big commentment, do you think?

[Moxlotus]

I think the deck is too strained on red to use Razorfins or even Vandals.  That must be just my luck but I don't like using too much red in the deck.

[Pern]

May as well get all the variants in one handy thread.
Here's my thirteen.

4 Spiketail Hatchling
3 Razorfin Hunter
2 Suq'Ata Firewalker
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Flying Men
1 Gorilla Shaman

4 one drops, 5 two drops, 2 three drops.
Pingers at every cost.
I will fear no two Chalices.

I run a spare Shaman and a pair of Heretics on the side.

[TheRock]

Right now, this is my creature base for Gay Red:

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Spiketail Hatchling
3 Cloud of Faeries
2 Voidmage Prodigy
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Razorfin Hunter

I have not been impressed by Cloud.  I've decided to change one of them into a Razorfin Hunter.  However, in metagames more dominated by Workshop, I will definitely put in Magus or Heretic somewhere.

I don't feel comfortable removing the Voidmages.  They are so great for me.  I feel the same about Grim Lavamancer.  I don't like the idea of removing creatures that can do two damage a turn for creatures that can only do one a turn when I need to have a reasonable clock.

[Pern]

I don't like the idea of removing creatures that can do two damage a turn for creatures that can only do one a turn when I need to have a reasonable clock.

But do they really do two damage a turn?
Playtesting them, and watching other people use them,
you have to hold back because Grim depends on limited resources.
You need your R for REB, you need to cast spells and activate manlands.
Your graveyard only has so many cards in it.

[TheRock]

But do they really do two damage a turn?
Playtesting them, and watching other people use them,
you have to hold back because Grim depends on limited resources.
You need your R for REB, you need to cast spells and activate manlands.
Your graveyard only has so many cards in it.

Obviously, they don't do two damage every single turn.  Voidmage has no evasion and Grim does have some costs involved that do change the formulas around.  An attacking Grim doesn't have evasion either, so it that sense, it is a horrible Curiosity target if that's all we will use it for.

However, Grim can do two damage a turn.  It takes Hunter, Hatchling, and Cloud two turns to do that no matter what.  And even if Grim cannot use its ability for some reason, it can still attack for one provided that there are no blockers.

In the case of REB, what happens if we don't need the mana for it?  We can use Grim instead and get in the two damage.  If we use Grim every other turn and attack with him just once when we don't want to use his ability, we have gotten one point of damage closer.

If you can win the game just one turn faster, isn't that worth considering alone?  It is still a matter of playstyle regardless, but it's hard to ignore a card that can have clock potential and synergy at the same time.

[MadRhetoric]

I currently run

4x Spiketail Hatchling
4x Cloud of Faeries
4x Grim Lavamancer
2x Voidmage Prodigy
2x Gorilla Shaman

The voidmage isn't as impressive as I first saw...what do you think would be the best replacement?  I wold like to test out razorfin hunter, and just 2 is not a big commentment, do you think?

This is exactly the creature base I ran at waterbury. I also came to the same conclusion about Voidmage. Voidmage is a terrible curiosity target, and curiosity is key to this deck. I'm thinking of testing flying men or razorfin hunters, but I don't want even more 2 drops. The flying men are a great curiosity target and is another 1 drop so they will most likely go in first.

[wuaffiliate]

Thre are a few more creatures to talk about as well.

Magus of the Unseen and Viashino Heretic are just screaming to see play.  They are both great cards against artifacts.  Heretic is a great target for Curiosity, and Magus can force a player to lose to their own fat.

There are so much many options against Stax, BFD, Slaver, and so forth that it comes down to picking the right mix of poisons for the job.

magus was ok, but nothing spectacular, ive gone back to my razorfins as usual. i played vs 3 slavers at waterbury and yet magus didnt come in handy at all, id rather just try and kill them before they can kill me.

im a huge fan of razorfins, they look so hype foil also

I think the deck is too strained on red to use Razorfins or even Vandals. That must be just my luck but I don't like using too much red in the deck.

i dissagree ive played razorfins and shamen alot and ive almost always had mana for them.

[skecreatoR]

I don't get why people play all these 4, 4, 3, 1, 1 combinations in their fish decks. For me, fish is about being resilient to counterspells and countering their own stuff, by playing too many singles in the deck, I think the deck loses a lot of its needed consistency.

Why play 1 Gorilla Shaman when you have nowhere as effective a draw base as seen in Hulk, and 1ofs are usually drawn too random.

Have people really found these one-ofs that effective? I am still to be convinced, but personally, I run this:

4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Spiketail Hatchling
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Goblin Vandal

because it is consistent, and I always draw into at least 1 of each. Simple as that.

[rvs]

im a huge fan of razorfins, they look so hype foil also

Remind me when I'm in Canadiananana that I flame you savagely for even suggesting this as a reason to run a card.

[sparticus216]

I don't get why people play all these 4, 4, 3, 1, 1 combinations in their fish decks. For me, fish is about being resilient to counterspells and countering their own stuff, by playing too many singles in the deck, I think the deck loses a lot of its needed consistency.

Why play 1 Gorilla Shaman when you have nowhere as effective a draw base as seen in Hulk, and 1ofs are usually drawn too random.

Have people really found these one-ofs that effective? I am still to be convinced, but personally, I run this:

4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Spiketail Hatchling
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Goblin Vandal

because it is consistent, and I always draw into at least 1 of each. Simple as that.[/quote

I think that you are right about running that many singles, however i think that because Gay has very consistant drawing w/ Curiosity that it can run 2 of something and draw into it when its needed.

[MooSE]

but personally, I run this:

4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Spiketail Hatchling
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Goblin Vandal

because it is consistent, and I always draw into at least 1 of each. Simple as that.

I run this exact same creature base with 3 Waterfront Bouncers sideboard to reaplace vandals in some aggro matchups.  I like the Bouncers better than Sigil of Sleep.  To have Sigil of Sleep be even as effective as the Bouncers it needs to be on a pinger, and i only run 4.  Creatures are already vulnerable, i don't like making them targets by having to attack.  My creatures do have evasion, but if my opponent has flyers (Faerie Conclave, Mystic Enforcer, Wonder in the graveyard) i'm screwed.

[Pern]

Why play 1 Gorilla Shaman when you have nowhere as effective a draw base as seen in Hulk, and 1ofs are usually drawn too random.

Aside from the fact that I won a game in Waterbury Saturday by playing a turn one Shaman
(something like turn 2 land and Curiosity blow up a mox, turn 3 Wasteland and Curiosity, turn 4 land and Curiosity for the scoop helped)
I don't generally want a Shaman early.
I want to play him with open mana, so I can use him before he dies.
One's enough for me game one in a random meta.

My two Flying men started as four, and along the way two got pulled for better cards.

My lone Grim was Razorfin #4.
Grim's ability to evade Chalice for 2 and his ability to eat my Lotus are useful,
but not that useful.
I was considering 2/2/2 Grim/Razorfin Hunter/Suq'Ata Firewalker
but I'd want slightly better access to red than I have.

Obviously, they don't do two damage every single turn. ...
Grim does have some costs involved that do change the formulas around.

That was exactly my point.
Razorfin can do one damage to something every single turn that he's active.
I believe Grim is barely any faster of a clock than Razorfin.
He may well be slower, if your red source is gone and there's a blocker.
It used to be that nobody blocked in T1.
Tain't so in these creature-heavy days.

And even if Grim cannot use its ability for some reason, it can still attack for one provided that there are no blockers.

So can Raging Goblin, and one turn sooner.

razorfins, they look so hype foil also

RobertThe Swordsman hooked me up with a foil Korean Razorfin.
Looks way too cool.

BTW, I can't believe I didn't meet you Saturday.
I was sitting next to Steve at the end when he was playing Carl and then Nantuko Rice for the semis and finals.