The Battle of the Banned Decks!

[Smmenen]

Anyone want to make some predictions

Steve

[Dr. Sylvan]

Me playing Long
Joe Bushman playing GAT
Kevin Cron playing Academy
Mike Lenzo playing Trix
Ted Dickeson playing Maysonet Balance deck
and Justin Shisler playing Legend Blue

4-1 - _,1,0,1,1,1 Long
3-2 - 0,_,0,1,1,1 GAT
5-0 - 1,1,_,1,1,1 Academy
2-3 - 0,0,0,_,1,1 Trix
0-5 - 0,0,0,0,_,0 Balance
1-4 - 0,0,0,0,1,_ Legend Blue

Control blows. Four Tolarian Academies will hopefully walk all over everyone. I'm probably not perfect on these, as I tend to underestimate control's ability to beat turn 1-2 combo.

[Smmenen]

I hate you becuase you just sapped the fun out of this entire tournament with what is probably a completely 100% accurate prediction.

Steve

[Swanky]

I hate you becuase you just sapped the fun out of this entire tournament with what is probably a completely 100% accurate prediction.

Steve

I would agree with Dr. Sylvan's predictions 100-percent.  4 Tolarian Academies was a scary thing, and I doubt things would have turned for the worst since then.

Though Academy and Long were rightfully committed to the deck asylum, at least they had the courtesy of merely showing how broken they were on either turn 1 or 2 and finished the match with enough time left in the round for you to run and grab a soda or something; Legend Blue was just annoying.

<3 the Balance deck.

[Kowal]

I think GAT can take out Long.  Especially with three duress.

My money's on what the good doctor ordered, with that minor change.  I wouldn't be surprised if Balance managed to take a game away from GAT or the combo decks, but I don't think it has enough oomph to take more than one game.

[Smmenen]

I think GAT presents the best threat to the Academy deck.  Especially if we use the red splash.  

The problem with GAT against Long is that Long has Xantid Swarms.  Quite frankly, I expect to 2-0 the GAT deck.  But we shall see.  Joe Bushman is a tough cookie - he got 5th in DC with Tog.  

I think I could beat the Academy deck if I win the coin flip and get slightly better than average Long hands, i.e. turn one wins .  Despite the Academies, the Academy deck doesn't have as broken a card pool as the Long deck - and LEDs and Rituals partially copmensate for Crypts and Vaults.  

Quite frankly, while we can speculate all day - the Balance deck could prove amazing due to hidden synergies.  JP thinks the Trix deck will win.  So while I would tend to agree that the Academy deck is the odds favorite, these are all broken decks in a league of their own.  

As for the BBS deck, it is capable of having 3 counterspells on line on turn one with Leak, FoW, and Misd.  That is nothing to laugh at.  

We may need to consider whether we need to do best three games of five or some way to compensate for winning the coin flip.  Any ideas?

Steve

[Jacob Orlove]

I still think the balance deck is going to do better than people give it credit for.

[jpmeyer]

http://www.wizards.com/sideboard/article.asp?x=INVITATIONAL9900/classicdecks

KAI BUDDE

4 Illusionas of Grandeur
3 Donate
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Pyroblast
4 Necropotence
4 Dark Ritual
2 Demonic Consultation
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Time Walk
4 Force of Will
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Timetwister
4 Duress
1 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Grim Monolith
3 City of Brass
2 Gemstone Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Badlands
4 Underground Sea
2 Underground River
SIDEBOARD
2 Hydroblast
1 Parallax Nexus
1 Wheel of Fortune
2 Abeyance
3 Pyroblast
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Gorilla Shaman
2 Phyrexian Negator

Still no Academy. I'll try for a little while more before giving up.

I would definitely choose Steve OMS' list over this one since he's got Mox Ruby over Mox Diamond (Finkel's is only 57 cards, but I'm assuming his and Steve OMS' decks are supposed to be the same seeing how their reports from that year said that they played all the same decks.)  I also like Humpherys' (since he has 4 Consults.)

[Swanky]

I still think the balance deck is going to do better than people give it credit for.

Relic Barrier > Type 1

[Smmenen]

JP find a good list for me then.

Steve

[Dr. Sylvan]

I hate you becuase you just sapped the fun out of this entire tournament with what is probably a completely 100% accurate prediction.

I'm not the one who asked for predictions!!!!

I can't wait to see that I made 100% accurate predictions for six decks I've never played. That would make me so cool.

[Alfred]

I think that some sort of tournament should be arranged, a la Legend's Battle of the sets.

Did you actually bother to read this thread first? -jpmeyer

[Smmenen]

Ok, I found a Dream Halls deck.  

http://www.classicdojo.org/d982/dk1.980525csb.txt

Subject: A new classic deck
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 17:36:38 +0000
From: jmd <cuenta1@gugu.usal.es>
To: fkusumot@ix.netcom.com

Dear Frank,
I´m posting at the Dojo this classic deck because I feel that people
sould play more to type I. A lot of my friends went towards standard
because they thougt all the classic decks were all the same, with nearly
identical card lists.
This deck tries to win with the new combination of Dream Halls, which
allows you to pitch cards from your hand without paying its casting
cost.
 The problem with this type of deck in standard is its slow killing.
 I felt that the solution was including a pair of Recycles (you can
pitch them with gaeas) and the winning combo Fastbond/Storm
Cauldron/Braingeyser to win. Because of that you don´t have to worry
about your life, and you get it very quickly.
 With this deck, you nearly always win if you get to play the Halls.

4 Dream Halls
3 Gaeas Blessing
1 Fastbond
1 Storm Cauldron
1 Braingeyser

4 Meditate
4 Ancestral Memories
2 Sift
2 Three Wishes
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Timetwister
2 Recycle

4 Intuition
2 Ancestral Knowledge

4 Abeyance
4 Force of Will
1 Disenchant

4 Mana Crypt
4 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
4 City of Brass
4 Tundra

 Note that you have to use your own Disenchant to destroy the Recycle if
you go for the Geyser.
 The only problem is that sometimes the mana seems to hide at the bottom
of the deck, and you die miserabily...
 Actually there are only a few cards that can easily destroy this deck:
-Chains of Mephistopheles(Fear This)
-Aura of Silence(a bit slow)
-First turn(Lotus)Lobotomy
-First turn Nether Void

 But of course you will always have the FoWs.

Thank you,
 Carlos S.B.

Thoughts?

Steve

[Pyromaniac]

Smmenen: to adjust for the coin flip you might want to like, play 8 or 10 games, let every deck go first the same number of times. Does that sound like an idea?

On a sidenote: When we played Academy over here we found room in the deck for 4 Mana Drain and 4 Force of Will, and still combo like crazy. I think I might be able to dredge up a decklist somewhere, not sure though.

[carlossb]

Smmenen....

I´m very happy today,
the Dream Halls deck you posted is mine!!!!



I didn´t remember about it, it was sooo many years ago....

One thing to care about: In that year, you didn´t loose with 0 or negative life, so the combo of Cauldron/Fastbond was just ridiculous
With Ancestral Memories you often discarded Gaea´s Blessing, so you shuffle your graveyard into your library again and again...

The deck was a beast, but the opponents were not happy about it  

Carlos S.B.

[glenchuy]

@ Jacob Orlove's jar.dec-

didn't extended jar.dec contain 4x goblin welders?

[Alfred]

Why not allow decks to use the rules that were legal at the time? This would make them more powerful, and have less dead cards in the MD ex. cauldron-fastbond.

[CmdrSam]

Why not allow decks to use the rules that were legal at the time? This would make them more powerful, and have less dead cards in the MD ex. cauldron-fastbond.

It is very much not well defined what happens when two players are playing under different rulesets -- what if one player is playing under pre-Sixth Edition rules and has no stack?

--Sam L-L

[Smmenen]

Alfred, where possible we are using pre-6th rules - i.e. with the Balance deck.

Steve

[OPColby]

Definitely need a Black Summer deck.

[MuzzonoAmi]

Nothing in those decks ever got banned/restricted.

[baumann]

Except Teh Skull, mayhaps?

[Dr. Sylvan]

Except Teh Skull, mayhaps?

This argument would lead to the inclusion of Shining because of Burning Wish, or Keeper because of FoF. The deck that breaks the card is what is important.

[CCClark]

Here's one of my favs I played "back in the day".   Copied from Excell sorry if it's a lil big (I'm lazy at retyping)  Loads of fun and mean as hell.

4   Taiga
4   Tropical
4   Volcanic
4   Strip Mine
7   Solomoxen
4   Kird Ape
4   Elvish Archers
4   Llanowar elves
4   Berzerk
4   Giant Growth
4   Black Vise
4   Lightning Bolt
4   Fireball
1   Ancestrall Recall
1   Time Walk
1   Timetwister
1   Wheel of Fortune
4   Chain Lightning
4   Blood lust
1   random cool card  


Do I miss that Balance deck.  Wow that thing was mean.  

By the way, I remember the hideous "masterbator"  being more along these lines.

4   City of Brass
4   Tolarian Academy
1   Strip Mine
4   Candelabra of Tawnos
7   Solomoxen
4   Hurkyl's Recall
4   Windfall
1   Time Walk
1   Ancestral Recall
1   Timetwister
1   Wheel of Fortune
4   Force of Will
4   Time Spriral
4   Stroke of Genius
1   Demonic Tutor
1   Vampiric Tutor
4   Lotus Petal
4   Mana Crypt
4   Mana Vault
2   Defense Grid


I loved this deck, it was so evil.

[Alfred]

The second deck is pretty sweet man, 4 Windfall + 4 strokes +4 academy + Lots of banned acceleration = good combo deck.

In regards to the confusion over rules, could there not be some sort of rules bending? Decks would use the stack, but the life-total-being-zero thing could be "ignored". Just a suggestion, beacause if that element were not allowed, the potency of a lot these banned decks would be reduced.

[rozetta]

I think you should try to include one of the mana crypt decks (as mentioned previously in this thread) if possible. Those were brutal and if you look at them, the lock components are pretty nasty - remora/vise with multiple draw-7s AND possibility of turn 1 blood moon. This might actually be pretty nasty versus a lot of the predicted field. The only thing these decks have against them being able to hold up in this format is the fact that they are pre-FoW and so won't stop turn 1 combo if going second.

I prefer the first list on this page: http://www.classicdojo.org/history/crypt1.html more than the second "better lucky than good" deck, since it's the least "control" of them all and just goes straight for the throat. Plus then we'd have the battle of the atogs

[carlossb]

I found an AMAZING deck list from the Duelist Team Challenge (I think it´s from 1999). The deck was played by Chapin (in the winner team, by the way...)

7 SoloMoxen
4 Grim Monolith
4 Lion´s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mana Vault
4 Mana Crypt

4 City of Brass
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy

1 Abeyance
1 Defense Grid
3 Force of Will

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Braingeyser
1 Memory Jar
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Timespiral
1 Timetwister
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Windfall

1 Demonic Tutor
2 Vampiric Tutor
3 Tinker

1 Grining Totem
1 Hurkyl´s Recall
1 Magma Mine
2 Power Artifact
2 Yawgmoth´s Will
1 Time Walk

SB:
2 Abeyance
1 Balance
1 City of Solitude
2 Disenchant
2 Disrupt
1 FOW
1 Hydroblast
1 Mystical
3 Pyroblast
1 Tinker

It´s a combo deck with Power Artifact + Grim Monolith to get infinite mana.

Back in the day, Grim Monolith, Lion´s Eye Diamond, Lotus Petal, Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, Tinker, Vampiric Tutor and Yawgmoth´s Will weren´t restricted.
I remember there was a period of time when you could anounce a spell, and then play it by sacrifying the Lion´s Eye Diamond...

[Smmenen]

BATTLE OF BANNED DECKS IS THIS FRIDAY!

Here is what people are playing:

Willy: Trix
Justin: BBS
Me: Long
Joe: GAT
Kevin: Academy
Ted: Balance Rack

Whoever else shows up with something else, the more the better!

Steve

[Razvan]

Alright, I am not sure how I missed this thread before, but meh. The first deck I can think of when thinking banned decks, is the first combo deck ever (Jacob suggested something like it on the first page).

1 Braingeyser, X Black Lotus, 59 - X Timetwister

The deck is resilient to most other combo decks. No combo deck runs the Spheres (at all), or Misdirection (the greatest nemesis).

Force of Will isn't a huge problem, since with every time cast, they will use up a blue card, and chances are you will have another Timetwister in hand to rerun the whole thing, and they will run out of blue cards at some point.

Yes, I know, should've been 40 cards, but it's too late now. So, in true fashion of my nature, I had to run a simulation seing how fast this deck can win on the first turn.

Since I had a sweet work computer that did nothing during the evening and night, I decided to let it run, with 100.000 simulations for any X possible, and the range being 2 -> 58.

There's obviously no point with a lot of those, just for the heck of it. I think the smallest number of needed Black Lotii was 7 (.51% victory... yey), and even with 58 Loti, and only 1 of each blue spell, the victory was 3.22%. So overall, not a bad little thing.

Of course, the more interesting values were the more balanced ones. And, 29 / 30, or 30 / 29 weren't the best ones. 29/30 had a 94.3% win percentage, while 30/29 had a 93.8%. Not that great.

The simulation included mulliganing down to 2, and using Braingeyser on yourself to draw your whole deck (the rest of it, at least), to draw into more Lotii and more Timetwisters. All in all, this is a perfect sim.

So, now, for the better values:

(Black Lotus Quantity | Timetwister Quantity | First turn win %)

(15 | 44 | 91.38%)
(16 | 43 | 93.78%)
(17 | 42 | 95.66%)
(18 | 41 | 96.77%)
(19 | 40 | 97.67%)
(20 | 39 | 98.20%)
(21 | 38 | 98.44%)
(22 | 37 | 98.49%)
(23 | 36 | 98.46%)
(24 | 35 | 98.16%)
(25 | 34 | 97.79%)
(26 | 33 | 97.17%)
(27 | 32 | 96.48%)
(28 | 31 | 95.42%)

So 1 Braingeyser, 22 Black Lotii, 37 Timetwisters is the best combination. Not by much, but at least.

--
Dr. Sylvan's got nothing on me in stats... of course, people would come and present some lame arguments with buzzwords, such as how Phil's stats are actually "useful"... :D
--

So yeah, can I enter that deck?

[Alfred]

I'm guessing no.