The Resurrection of Reap-Lace Part II

[Spizzard]

Hopefully, some of you may remember Reap-Lace.  An older deck that revolved around the obscure combo of Reap + Laces and then used a Lotus for infinite mana and wins via recurring an Ebony Charm, infinite turns with Time Walk or decking via Ancestral Recall.  Except, this, unlike most combo decks, can play the control game very well, and then win when it desires.  It can recur counters while setting up the combo.

       
Back on the original forums, Zoneseek started this thread http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11454  If you have not read it or at least looked at it, I suggest doing that.  The combo is explained much better as well as thoroughly.

It seems to me, this could be a time for ReapLace to make a comeback.  Graveyard hate seems to be at a low with 'little' fast combo to hate on this deck.

Here is what I feel to be the core of the deck.

Main:

4 Lace (Death/Prismatic)
4 Mana Drain  (There are many targets....)
4 Force of Will
3/4 Reap (1 Sideboard might be a possibility)
2-4 Cunning Wish
4 Intuition
X Restricted Cards

Here is an old list... keep in mind it has not been updated over the course of several new sets.

//Mana Base
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald

//Restricted Stuff
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Regrowth
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor

//Combo Stuff
2 Deathlace
3 Pristmatic Lace
4 Reap

//Other Spells
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish

//Counters      
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain

//Sideboard (I realize this may not be a very good sideboard)
1 DeathLace
1 Prismatic Lace
1 Intution
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Fire/Ice
1 Ebony Charm
1 Coffin Purge
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Gush

This was an older build which I played Post-GaT/Pre-Long era.  It is not up to date and I'd suggest not playing this particular version at unless you are just trying to get a feel for the deck.

Over the course of the past few sets, some cards should be examined to see if they would be a better fit in reaplace than some of the current cards.

Thirst for Knowledge
Pros:
-Sink for Drain
-Draws cards as well as allowing you to get a combo piece into the graveyard for faster comboing.
Cons:
-Puts resources into the graveyard... hurts when you can't combo that turn

Result:  It may find a place.  Testing will show whether it's better than Intuition/Ak Engine since the Hulk Matchup could be bothersome.

Serum Vision
Check this thread
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=16840

Serum Vision may be better than brainstorm in this deck, however, I doubt it.  It clears chaff away which sometimes is very hurtfull.  However, not having the ability to shuffle away dead cards may be too much.

Elvish Spirit Guide
Pros:
-Fast Mana
-On Color for Reap
Cons:
-One time use
-Off color for most of the deck
-No help when comboing out

Fast mana helps assemble the combo, but since this is more of a control deck now, ESG doesn't seem like a very good fit.
Here's my current build i've been testing.

// Counters
        4 Mana Drain
        4 Force of Will
// Draw
        4 Brainstorm
        3 Thirst for Knowledge
        3 Intuition
        3 Cunning Wish
// Other
        1 Regrowth
        4 Reap
        2 Deathlace
        3 Prismatic Lace
// Br0ken
        1 Time Walk
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        1 Ancestral Recall
// Manabase
        1 Library of Alexandria
        4 Polluted Delta
        3 Volcanic Island
        4 Tropical Island
        3 Underground Sea
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Tolarian Academy
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Black Lotus
// Sideboard
SB:  1 Fact or Fiction
SB:  1 Deathlace
SB:  1 Fire/Ice
SB:  2 Deep Analysis
SB:  1 Intuition
SB:  1 Ebony Charm
SB:  1 Coffin Purge
SB:  1 Mystical Tutor
SB:  1 Prismatic Lace
SB:  1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB:  4 Red Elemental Blast

Thirst for Knowledge has been excelent.  Not having to set up AK's with the first Intuition helps.  Its better to just go for Reaps, Laces or depending on whats in hand, Reap/Time Walk/Lotus.

I felt it was time to resurrect an old favorite that I believe can once again become viable.   I am interested in hearing input from Ben Kowal.  If memory serves me correct, he played Reaplace at Waterbury? a while back.

[kirdape3]

Call me stupid, but if you want a combo deck that can play control, play Tog or GAT.

[Gabethebabe]

Call me stupid, but if you want a combo deck that can play control, play Tog or GAT.

*sigh*
Not stupid, but quite a useless post.

Ever since they printed Isochron Scepter I´ve been thinking about putting it in Reaplace. The drawing engine as well as the combo parts can be put on a stick. Have you considered Isochron Scepter?

[jpmeyer]

Yeah, you either have Tog with about 5-6 dead cards or GAT with 4-5 dead cards, which makes ReapLace strictly inferior.

[Rico Suave]

If there is a low amount of graveyard hate in an environment, why play Reap over something like Dragon?  Dragon is faster, more consistent, and has a good game against control.

[Spizzard]

If there is a low amount of graveyard hate in an environment, why play Reap over something like Dragon? Dragon is faster, more consistent, and has a good game against control.

Dragon dies to creature hate, whereas ReapLace does not.  And while Dragon is faster, MAY be more consistent,  that doesn't not mean that reaplace isn't viable.  The shock value of comboing with Reaplace is great.  Many opponents really have no idea what you are playing/doing which leads to sideboarding/play mistakes.

Call me stupid, but if you want a combo deck that can play control, play Tog or GAT

   This arguement has been used before.  Why play keeper when you can play a better control deck in Tog?  Just because a certain deck does something better than another, doesn't justify playing it over another.  Tog and GaT are combo decks that can play control, but both decks get hit by hate that reaplace does not, seeing as they revolve around creatures.

Yeah, you either have Tog with about 5-6 dead cards or GAT with 4-5 dead cards, which makes ReapLace strictly inferior.

I think you are saying Reaplace has dead cards against the above decks.   In that case, you discard them to TfK or Brainstorm them away.  I can't really see having dead cards since everything has its use.  Sure, you may combo out holding certain cards in your hand, but thats game over anyways.

Ever since they printed Isochron Scepter I´ve been thinking about putting it in Reaplace. The drawing engine as well as the combo parts can be put on a stick. Have you considered Isochron Scepter?

I considered Scepter a while back.  But being able to only combo with a Scepter w/ Reap and Time Walk, I threw it out.   It gets hit with artifact removal that can be devastating.  The fact that this does allow you to combo with just a Scepter w/ Reap and Time Walk rather than two Reaps, does give it some viability.  I'll try some testing with it.  (-1 Wish, -1 Brainstorm?, +2 Isochron Scepter.)  I didn't even mention a first turn Scepter w/ a Lace imprinted... that is obviously good providing that scepter can activate.

[jpmeyer]

What I mean is that the two builds of ReapLace that you posted are identical to Tog and GAT, respectively for the first like 50-55 cards or so, but then the difference is arising in that by choosing to play ReapLace, you need to devote twice as many cards towards killing your opponent as Tog or Gat.  Tog needs only 3 slots and GAT needs only 6 slots to kill, while ReapLace needs 4 Reap and at least 4 Laces.

[TheAdvantage]

Many opponents really have no idea what you are playing/doing which leads to sideboarding/play mistakes.

If you are playing someone who doesnt know what you are playing when you cast Death/Prismatic Lace, then you'll likely win anyway.  Obviously, this deck is not played widely, but the Lace will ring a bell in people's head.

That being said, if you manage to win game 1, your opponent will know to bring in his/her 'yard hate.  If you dont, perhaps you can sneak game 2 out on mistakes, but you still have game 3.  It is better to rely on your skill than your opponent's lack thereof.  You're going to run into splash damage from Dragon and Slaver.

This was never a great deck, but it took a nice hit when LED was restricted.  This deck could abuse LED nearly as well as Long if you play with draw 7s.

And while Dragon is faster, MAY be more consistent, that doesn't not mean that reaplace isn't viable.

There is a small amount of truth in your statement if by viable, you mean the deck can win even though there is a deck better suited for the environment.  If you can win with Reaplace, you should be able to win more with Dragon.  This is a fun deck to play, but fun doesnt mean you should try to navigate through 7 rounds of swiss piloting it.  You have better options.

[eddavatar]

I just want to ask one quick question. What is the norminal goldfish kill turn?

If it's anything slower than 2, sorry, I think you are better off with hulk.

[Rico Suave]

And while Dragon is faster, MAY be more consistent, that doesn't not mean that reaplace isn't viable.

There is a small amount of truth in your statement if by viable, you mean the deck can win even though there is a deck better suited for the environment.  If you can win with Reaplace, you should be able to win more with Dragon.  This is a fun deck to play, but fun doesnt mean you should try to navigate through 7 rounds of swiss piloting it.  You have better options.

This was my point.  

Dragon is just better.  It can win around hate whereas Reap-Lace struggles just trying to outrace other decks, not even counting hate.  

Also, the reason I said Dragon has a good game against control is because if you're playing Reap-Lace, you are NOT equipped to win AK wars.  You are going to struggle against decks like Tog, whereas Dragon has a very nice game there.

[Wizbane]

As a self-proclaimed newbie, expecially a Reap-Lace newbie since I've never tried the deck, seeing a thread where 6 replies out of 9 are of the kind "go play deck y rather than this" is quite annoying for someone looking to learn something.

Can this thread remain devoted to fine-tuning the deck posted? I would be very interested in that.

W.

[jpmeyer]

As a self-proclaimed newbie, expecially a Reap-Lace newbie since I've never tried the deck, seeing a thread where 6 replies out of 9 are of the kind "go play deck y rather than this" is quite annoying for someone looking to learn something.

Can this thread remain devoted to fine-tuning the deck posted? I would be very interested in that.

W.

It's because ReapLace is LITERALLY Tog just with a strictly inferior kill condition that unnecessarily takes up a lot of slots.  It's like comparing Dragon to this build of Dragon.  The do the exact same thing, except that one deck requires only 1 card to kill instead of 6.

If you look at the ReapLace "skeleton" at the beginning of the this thread, Tog and ReapLace are completely identical for about 50 cards and only then deviate because ReapLace is using a more inefficient kill.  This isn't like saying that Tog is a better control deck than Keeper or that Slaver is a better deck than WW.  It's saying that this is simply a worse way to do the exact same thing.

[Fastbond]

I like Az's old version best, the one with Duress and Balance, no Cunning Wish and no fetchlands.  I'd use that build as a basis.  The advantage that that build has over GAT is that it could run balance with enough tutors to set up a good one and thus negate the card disadvantage of the laces.

[waSP]

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11723&highlight=reap is the thread on the old TMD where I posted my thoughts on a Reap Lace build.

I don't think the deck is actually viable because of a few reasons.

1. Artifact and graveyard are the two most common forms of hate.  This disrupts your combo and often won't let you play your game effectively.

2. What are you going to target that will stick around.  Most of the best decks will be able to get rid of one or more of their permanents (Wasteland, Gorilla Shaman, Gush, Naturalize, Cunning Wish -> X).

3. Chalice of the Void for 2.

Your thoughts?

[Spizzard]

I must not have said this clearly enough in the beggining thread.  Reaplace isn't a traditional combo deck.  It is mainly control... goldfish doesn't really matter that much (Average is about 4, which is way too slow for combo)

2. What are you going to target that will stick around. Most of the best decks will be able to get rid of one or more of their permanents (Wasteland, Gorilla Shaman, Gush, Naturalize, Cunning Wish -> X).

If someone wants to hit thier own land with a Wasteland, they can go ahead and smoke thier own land.  Gush is much of the same way.  Except that I don't have to just change the color of thier land.  I'm not saying it'd be a good idea, but you can change Gorilla Shaman, Moxen or any other permanent that may be more likely to stick around and then combo.  
Cunning Wish for Hate always hurts.  But then again, that hurts most combo decks anyway.

[Klep]

Ever since they printed Isochron Scepter I´ve been thinking about putting it in Reaplace. The drawing engine as well as the combo parts can be put on a stick. Have you considered Isochron Scepter?

I actually toyed around with this deck for a while for fun, and it turns out that the deck ironically hates Scepter.  It's really just a dead card you don't need or want.

[Fastbond]

Here's Az's old list from memory which I think is pretty close to the optimal version today.

Control(9)
X4 Force of Will
X4 Duress
X1 Balance

Recursion(6)
X1 Regrowth
X4 Reap
X1 Timetwister

Tutoring(7)
X4 Intuition
X1 Demonic Tutor
X1 Vampiric Tutor
X1 Mystical Tutor

Card Drawing(7)
X1 Ancestral Recall
X1 Time Walk
X1 Fact or Fiction
X4 Accumulated Knowledge
X1 Sylvan Library

Laces(6)
X4 Prismatic Lace(Az used 4 Deathlace and 2 lace but I found you do want to pitch the laces)
X2 Deathlace

Mana
X7Solomoxen(Mana Crypt instead now?)
X4City of Brass
Other lands....

The sideboard had various instant speed cards such as tangle and bind.  It also ran morphling but there is probably a better creature to use now.

The advantages this build has over Psychatog are: it runs balance;  reap can be cast at instant speed; you can reap control cards post sideboard; once you have a permanent laced reap no longer counts as a dead card; it can recover with timetwister or balance.

I would not run Mana Drain because it is too slow to stop hate cards from coming into play.  Slots I'd look at altering are Intuition, AK, and Fact or Fiction.  It'd be a nice to have a solution to the Fireblast, Gush, or opponent only has one permanent in play problem.  The best I could think of is Rainbow Vale.

[Tristal]

I actually built my own version of Reaplace and played it today at a small T1 (12 people).  I felt Mana Drains were too reactive to make the deck work, so I cut them in favor of other stuff for consistency.

I also tested AKs and Isochrons and felt both were unnecessary.  You really want to use your Intuitions for combo pieces, not AKs.  With Isochron, you can put Laces on it, but you never want to put Reap on it - you really need it on the graveyard, not RFG.  4 mana for the first Lace is also really more than you want to spend - I'd rather have an extra Lace than an Isochron.  Plus, I put Pernicious Deeds in the deck, since it can randomly die to a LOT of unintentional hate (Planar Void, Sphere of Resistance, Trinisphere, Root Maze).  Decklist as follows:

Tristal's ReapLace (Eminem.dec)

4 Reap
4 Prismatic Lace
1 Regrowth
1 Deathlace
4 Intuition

1 Mystical Tutor
1 Hurkyl's Recall (Spheres game 1 = game loss)
1 Time Walk
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall

4 Duress
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Yawgmoth's Will

2 Pernicious Deed

7 SoLoMoxen
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Mana Crypt
3 Polluted Delta
4 Bayou
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea

SB:
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Chill (I feel this is a better weapon against FCG than BEB.)
4 Darkest Hour
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Tormod's Crypt

I don't want discussion to center around reasons NOT to play the deck.  It's very obvious the combo is extremely fragile, easy to hate, and slower than most other comboes.  What I'm hoping for is encouraging discussion on how to improve the deck.  

An earlier post in the thread used Sylvan Library, and I think it'd be tremendous for my build.  I'd probably cut a Bayou for the fourth Delta along with fitting in Sylvan(s) somewhere.

The sideboard definitely needs work - note the lack of Cunning Wishes, too.  Chills can probably get cut entirely (Darkest Hours work well too against them) to make more room for artifact hate, possibly Oxidizes or more Recalls.

I would like to test Skeletal Scrying and Elvish Spirit Guide as well.  If not Scrying, possibly the 1B, pay 2 life, draw 2 cards sorcery in 5D.

Any suggestions?

[Anders Noer]

I've been trying out Reap-lace, whenever there's a chance, for the last couple of years...

I don't really like Mana Drain in this deck, as it is (as you said) way too reactive. The only real good sinks you have are Intuition and Cunning Wish.

I definately agree with the 4x Xantid Swarm + 4x Darkest Hour in your side board. Xantid Swarms are huge in this deck (...as they can be recurred for re-use). Darkest Hour handles all aggro matchups.

Besides that you really need a toolbox sideboard (Cunning Wish) to handle hate/support the combo. I've found Entomb to be a nice Wish target for getting Lotus.

You say that Reap-Lace is a control deck with combo-elements, and sure - you CAN reap counterspells/Duress for infinte fun and laughs, but all your opponent needs to do is counter your Reaps and you're pretty much s.c.r.e.w.e.d.
I've played this deck and lost to control decks over and over and over.
I really wish it was viable, but I fear that it will never be. It is a very cool deck though...

Good luck. Ye be needin' it.