(Single Card Discussion) Key to GAT in the 5th Dawn? Maybe.

[Bulls on Parade]

I'm disappointed to see this discussion slowing down. I hope it isn't because individual teams think they have busted tech no one will think of :/ .

I'm sure everyone else has been testing this as much as I have, but what I've come to for now looks like this:

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
4 Brainstorm
3 Serum Visions
3 Duress
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Quirion Dryad
3 Counterspell
2 Misdirection
2 Null Rod
4 Night’s Whisper
1 Gush
1 Fastbond
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
2 Psychatog
2 Cunning Wish
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
4 Force of Will
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Island
Sideboard:
2 Coffin Purge
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Smother
2 Oxidize
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Berserk  
1 Stifle
1 Misdirection
1 Submerge
1 Accumulated Knowledge
I've got 1 more SB slot as you can see, I may fill it with the 3rd Null Rod.
Hah. I just said I'd fill the slot with a Rod.

MD Null Rods are most likely because I test vs. Slaver entirely too much. Then again, it is theoretically the toughest matchup, right? I don't know how worthwhile Fastbond is, but I've usually been glad to draw into it.

My favorite thing I've come up with in the list is the sideboard AK. It lets you mooch off Hulk's engine, not to mention is cheaper than FoF or Skeletal Scrying (which is what I've been seeing in that slot).

Anyways, I'm not posting my list to say I think it's optimal, or even that it's going to be close to the best- I just want to keep this discussion going.

[Machinus]

This is in response to some of the choices in Eastman's thread regarding post 5th GAT.

I would consider going down to one misdirection. Scrying, TFK, and AK are all really popular. I would go up to 3 daze since I think fastbond should go in the deck.

4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
3 Daze
3 Duress

Brainstorm + Visions is good. I am not sure if three or four whispers is right, but four looks ok for now.

4 Brainstorm
4 Night's Whisper
4 Serum Visions
1 Will
1 Gush
1 Recall
1 Walk
1 Demonic
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical
1 Vampiric
2 Cunning Wish

I added a merchant scroll.

4 Quirion Dryad
3 Pyschatog

Creature base looks solid.

1 Fastbond
4 U. Sea
4 Trop. Island
1 Island
5 Blue Fetch
1 LoA
3 Moxen
1 Black Lotus

What are the arguments for keeping the pearl and the ruby? I might cut them and add fastbond and an island instead. Take note that the deck runs LoA and not strip mine. With so much draw and tutoring, finding a place for strip could prove valuable.

This is still pretty rough, I would like to know what people think of Eastmans build and Whisper in general. Thanks.

[Sandster]

The off color moxen are still needed to facilitate the first turn dryad.  Also, due to the low island count, that decklist will have a hard time supporting Daze if it does not get Fastbond.

[Ultima]

Daze is still far too situational to make a difference.  When considering where it would be good (Control matches), it doesn't pull its weight for the slots because GAT already has a great game against control.

Daze is good against FCG in theory but because they're already using wastes, that's alot of tempo loss.  Workshop just laughes at Daze also.

[eddavatar]

I believe that Daze and Duress are just awful in this meta. Daze's too situational in the first place to be utilized, and Fastbond is not an excuse to play it.

Duress is just so awful against slaver.

I'll never forsake the off-color moxens. They're so crucial against wasteland, the single biggest enemy of GAT.

While I admit that night's whisper's nice, I just don't see why people are still so scared to play AK. Hulk players have to face the same dilemma.

[Machinus]

I think it is a matter of mana, really. Part of the reason that Intuition is good is the fact that it is a real tutor, not a filter like brainstorm or a setup card like mystical. But the problem here is the cost. In order to get that first AK, you spend 3UU and one card to draw three cards. With whisper, you spend 2BB, two cards, and four life to draw four cards. Certainly the analysis improves if you can find the fourth ak, going to 4UUU and two cards for seven cards, and the third whisper shows 3BBB, three cards, and six life for six cards. Again the numbers improve for AK when you consider Will, or other recursion. Whisper's advantage comes from the fact that it operates successfully by itself, being unconditional. It "frees" the slots used by Intuition, and allows for a much cheaper draw engine to be instated if you want to try Serum Visions. I think this is the direction GAT would have to go in to obtain viability again - reducing the costs of the draw engine.

[Sandster]

Also, this should be too obvious to need stating, but one of the ways to combat Hulk's draw engine is with REBs.  Night's Whisper, like Scrying, does not have this weakness.

Besides, AK by itself is terrible.

[Ultima]

Really, it isn't that people are scared to play AK but why should you if you don't need to.

Surely, there are other options which can yield equal to better results.

[Zelc]

AK is pretty bad without Intuition (which the new suicide-GAT doesn't play due to mana reasons already explained).  In order to draw as much as an equal number of Night's Whispers, you must cast THREE AKs (provided the other one doesn't go into the gy during this stint).  Additionally, one and two Night's Whispers sees one more card than one or two AKs, meaning you have a greater chance (albeit slightly) to draw into more brokeness.  AK also costs 2, meaning it doesn't compete with the one mana cantrips that are necessary for finding mana and growing the creatures.  These factors mean AK shouldn't see play in the new suicide-GAT.

[AggressiveDude]

Someone tested Impulse instead of Whispers?
It seems to be a very good alternative to Ak and NW.
Believe me if I say Impulse fits in GAT.It is the Card made for GAT.In my version where I run 4 Daze and 3 Misdirection the Impulse gets you a free counter 60% of the time.
any thoughts?

[Ultima]

AK and whispers draw card advantage though and impulse is just a cantrip, you really can't sub a draw engine for more cantrips.

[goober]

Think of it more like a tutor, if you need that Dryad, then it either gets you it, or finds you a decent draw spell to dig some more.  Early Dryad is mandatory, so an AK for 1 doesn't help much, where this would.  While you have Dryad out it can find a draw spell to continue on the chain.  Cantrips can't replace draw engines, but this digs 4 cards deep, which is very nice when the deck revolves around a 4 of being out turn 1-2.

I know with such a low land count this might not be great, but what about Mox Diamond?  Land Mox Dryad is so much more powerful than turn 2 Dryad, so might it be worht it to bump up the Mox count by 1?  My build runs 14 land, which means it will often be able to pitch a land and lay one first turn.  That tempo and power boost of the Dryad is worht the 1 less land.  I would probably take out either an Impulse, I run 4, or 1 Daze.

[Setnakt]

Impulse is really no better than AK, as it never generates card advantage. You only need so many tutors in a deck designed to spend all of its available mana cycling through the deck, especially to the point where you don't need 2cc tutors that don't really tutor for anything in particular. I don't understand how you can even compare Impulse and Night's Whispers when the Whispers actually lets you, you know, draw multiple cards. I would think people would be attracted to that option simply because it generates card advantage.

[Ultima]

Impulse is a good cantrip but this deck really doesn't want to spend more than 1 mana for a cantrip at all.  Its manabase isn't designed for that and the instant speed becomes irrelavant because your playing during your MP to pump your dryad.

[goober]

Actually, I'm very surprised that Mana Drain is not on the list. Even a multiple of 3 would be better than zero.

As for Mis-D, I know most people think it's inferior, but I think Ultima proved this to be false. He's won enough jewlery with GAT and maindeck Mis-d to make a good case.

I'll say this again: MisD will save you from Mind Twist, Hymn, FoW, Mana Drain, Counterspell, stupid burn, and more. Redirecting a STP or Dismantling Blow or Disenchant or whatever can also be game breaking.

Oh, and it doesn't hurt to steal an Ancestral either.

MisD = Underrated.

As for Daze, I understand it's usefullness. I've looked at it several times because it can be a free counter while acting like a small Gush, growing the Dryad and feeding the Tog. But every time I've pulled it in favor of MisD or Duress or some other draw card.

Dave.

The main reason MisD is great is protecting the early game Dryad.  Force of Wills are everywhere, and so you need to have something to protect you.  MisD works far better than Daze because often you go land cantrip, they drop a land, then you go land Dryad.  If they Force they will have the land to pay for Daze.  Also combining Daze and MisD makes you even more likely to have one in your opening hand.  I like running 10, because the early Dryad is key.  It is almost like the fundamental turn is 2.5, for getting the Dryad out or not.  I find a turn 4 Dryad is just far too slow.

Mind Twist, Ancestral, Deep Anal, all those are fun, but the main purpose of the card is first turn Dryads.

This is what I run for GAT

// Lands
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Underground Sea
    1 Flooded Strand
    4 Tropical Island
    1 Library of Alexandria

//Mana
    7 CryLoMoxen

// Creatures
    4 Quirion Dryad
    2 Psychatog

// Draw
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Gush
    4 Serum Visions
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Night's Whisper
    4 Skeletal Scrying

//Counters
    4 Misdirection
    4 Force of Will
    2 Daze

//Stuff
    1 Time Walk
    2 Cunning Wish
    1 Fastbond
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Yawgmoth's Will

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Psychatog
SB: 1 Misdirection
SB: 1 Berserk
SB: 4 Duress
SB: 2 Coffin Purge
SB: 1 Oxidize
SB: 1 Vendetta
SB: 1 Stifle
SB: 1 Vampiric Tutor
SB: 1 Chain of Vapor

Sideboard sucks, it's just random stuff for now.  The Scrying are amazing, test them out and you will see how much they improve your lategame.  Your graveyard grows increadibly fast, and so doing it for a lot isn't a problem.  It is a very solid draw engine that can help you recover after those large pitchwars you can have over the Dryad.  The synergy with Tog problems aren't actually that bad because he is often not even needed, and Scrying is XB for +X/+X.  That is also assuming you don't just go monkeynuts off what you draw and cycle through 6 or 7 cards off them.

[Purple Hat]

@ goober:
don't you end up placing ridiculous strain on your life total with 4 fetches, 4 Nights Whispers, AND 4 Skeletal Scrying...not to mention the life loss to Force of Will.  I mean if you fetch twice and cast each of the others only twice (which I think is way less then what this deck will probably do) you're giving more then 10 life into your own deck.  don't you find that you have serious problems with loosing matches or not being able to cast your draw because of your life total.  it seems to me that you'd be getting to the point where a resolved threat of any kind by your opponent could be game ending.  I don't think most decks can support that kind of strain on their life totals.

[AggressiveDude]

Impulse is a good cantrip but this deck really doesn't want to spend more than 1 mana for a cantrip at all.  Its manabase isn't designed for that and the instant speed becomes irrelavant because your playing during your MP to pump your dryad.

Since you run a lot of "cantrips" I consider that Impulse,together with all the other cantrips,is a real draw engine.
Impulse gets you other cantrip.
AK and NW only sometimes.

How about Fire/Ice?
Its a nice cantrip you can pitch it for MisD,FoW and tapping a tog is nice.It is also a removal card which I think is needed due the lack of Deed/other removal.

And is there a reason not to run AK and Impulse ?

[Zherbus]

...because Impulse costs 2 mana which eats a valuable curve slot, yet only gives you card quality not card quantity. With all the other cantrips, you are fine are card quality, but you'll need real draw to be able to brainstorm/visions low-card quality cards away and to support the pitch counters.

[goober]

@Purple Hat
Yes I put a strain on my life total, hence Suicide GAT, but I am also putting one on theirs.  When asking who's the beatdoesn, its almost always me.  I am going to mess with my sideboards and maybe add red, so that I can deal with FCG better.  I'd run Deed if only the Dryad was safe.  I have been considering sideboarding AKs or Impulses to replace the Scryings when it is a problem.  I think against Madness, Fish, Ravager, and FCG I would swap it out.

[cssamerican]

The more I mess around with this deck the more I ask myself the question; why use Night's Whisper instead of Accumulated Knowledge?

The pros for using Night's Whisper is it is not vunerable to REBs, and it draws one additional card for the first one casted. And thats about it. The cons is that it you can lose quite bit a life using it and fetchlands, and many times you might not be able to use it conjuction with Yawgmoth's Will due to your life totals.

Accumulated Knowledge doesn't decrease your life total, the third and fourth casted draw more cards than Night's Whisper, pitches to FoW if need be, it is an instant, and it has great synergy with Yawgmoth's Will, the Togs, and Cunning Wish. Other than REBs the only downside is it makes the Hulk and mirror matches a little bit more difficult to play due to the swingy nature of Accumulated Knowledge in mirors.

With all the cantrips and digging power in this deck, the fact that Night's Whisper draws one additional card for the first one casted is probably going to irrelevent in most cases. So is invunerability to REBs more important than considerable loss of life, and synergy within the deck?

Edit: Also would it be possible to run both? At least then you could draw more aggresively, using the Aks more in some senario and in others rely more heavily on Night's Whisper. For example against Hulk you could use cantrips and Night Wisper's throwing Aks back into library until the proper time in which to use them. Just as in against more aggro builds you could pitch Night's Whisper and draw with AKs if your life points became an issue.

[eddavatar]

ccsamerican: Night's Whisper and AK in the same deck is exactly the brainchild I've since Night's whisper's existence was confirmed (check a few pages back on this thread)

I've personally tested night's whisper and serum visions last couple days both goldfishing and against Germbus, TnT, and Tog.

I'm always under the impression that the Night's Whisper/Serum Visions engine would run out of gas fast. My goldfishing shows me that it's actually not the case. It's resembling 70% of old-GAT.

However, once force of will/real opponent sets in, I found myself in some trouble. Having no pure instant speed drawer/cantrip other than brainstorm leaves me short-handed against control, be it germbus or Hulk.
I'm often reluctant to cast Visions/Night's Whisper in turn 1/2 respectively because that would leave myself absolutely vunlerable unless I got a force in hand. That relegates visions as a turn 3 play, which is horrible.

Whisper's still fantastic but obviously it can be a problem against random aggro (there's a game where I was down to 2 and brainstorm into whisper/random/random), but is functioning just fine other than that.

My stance on the draw engine post 5D at the moment is Whisper/AK. Having an instant component of the engine is crucial in my opinion. However, Opt also deserves a strong look in place of serum visions (I've never ever run sleigh of hand over that in old GAT, ever.)

[Ultima]

The thing is that whisper is solid in that it isn't REBable, misdirectable, or gets clogged with other people playing it like AK.

Whispers provide more than enough draw and AK is just overkill.  Serum Visions is bad with whispers but the other cantrips are very good with them.  Eddavatar came to a conclusion that GRO has known for awhile.  We cut visions some time ago.  Whispers can be a 1-2 turn play if the counterbase is done properly and the duress/FOW base is pretty weak.  Hulk and Germbus can just run over that disruption with drawing and LD.

GAT STILL NEEDS HARD COUNTERS LIKE COUNTERSPELL AND DRAIN.

[goober]

The gameplan of GAT is completely different than one that uses hard counters.  Mana Drain requires you to have UU untapped during your opponent's turn, which means you will not be tapping out to make a huge Dryad before you attack, which is equivalent to a Time Walk for your opponent.  Your plan needs to be drop Dryad, grow it during main phase, swing.  "going off" during your main phase is required because of the sorcery speed draw.  Leaving UU open means you will not be using nearly as many draw spells as you could, and the instant speed isn't enough.  If you slow down to a hardcounter pace you will be run over by their drawing/ld.  Ld shouldn't effect you because you can play a land and use it for a draw spell, and keep seeing a land.  You will get the Dryad huge in 3 turns or so if you go all out.  5 or more if you save up for Mana Drains.

Who's the beatdown? Me.  That is how the deck works, lay a threat, and then cantrip to the win.  That is why I like MisD so much, yu shouldn't have mana open.  The control strategy is better in Hulk, so just run that.  This is the aggro control version, leaning a lot more on the aggro.  Misasignment of role=game loss.

[Machinus]

You can quote as much as you want, but GAT doesn't exist like that anymore. There is only one gush in the deck, and a full complement of moxen. Therefore, you will have a lot of mana and it will stay on the board. Drain is a really amazing card, and the mana it produces while keeping your dryad alive can be put to solid use growing it next turn.

[eddavatar]

Ultima: I'm interested in what you think the optimal disruption base would be.

For me, It is really dependent on the draw base.

I've goldfished with night's whisper/opt and it feels pretty good. But the obvious problem is if I should be running mana drain or just vanilla counterspell.

Misdirection is such a tweener card these days....there are enough FoWs and mind twist flying around to warrent its use but I just so don't want to see it when I'm seeing any kind of aggro, which is a safe bet to appear in any big tournament. I'm leaning on 1, looking at PTW's fish as a cue. I might run 2 if i'm running opt considering the fact that the deck can dig for answer faster, less controlling and opt is a better remove target.

Stifle, however, is something I'm looking strongly at once again. It does silly things like stifling random jars, slaver and charbelcher when you just don't have the time to react. It also protects the mana base. It also deals with fish's "man-counters." I'm leaning towards 1 in the post 5D GAT. I won't be surprised if i've somehow decided to run 2, however.

Duress runs into Night's Whisper's realm of mana use, unfortunately.

I hate singletons as much as anyone else, but I'm believing that this is the proper disruption base post 5D:

4 FoW
4 Mana Drain/Counterspell (for Night's Whisper/AK and Night's Whisper/Opt respectively)
1 Misdirection
1 Stifle (maybe 2)

[Ultima]

@Goober

While in theory, this is true but in reality it just doesn't work that way.  True you'll be tapping out to play things during your MP but there are some decks where you have to play control and going aggro will LOSE such as against FCG.  Aggro-control-combo is what GAT is not just aggro and not just control, the deck ability to switch between these roles is what makes it so good.  Besides you don't always have the hand to back up the role you want to play and forcing roles = gameloss also.

I really think you should do more testing because in point to fact playing the control role against Hulk usually loses, playing the aggro player wins.

@ Eddavatar

I firmly advocate that the proper counterbase right now should be

3 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Duress

[monstre]

I firmly advocate that the proper counterbase right now should be

3 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Duress

Regarding mana drain, do you get much use out of the mana part ? Are you playing with skeletal scrying ?
I've been using mana leak for some time now and I think they're worth considering as a raplacement for drains. They can come online turn one if you have a mox, which can make a huge difference against combo decks, and it's also much easier to cast a cantrip or duress and leave 1U open if you have said mox on turn two. I can only suggest you try them out as the deck has fewer outlets for drain mana than its previous incarnations.

[Ultima]

actually you'd be surprised how many outlets you can have.  Mana drain doesn't power out 1 big spell in this but instead powers out many small ones like dryad then whisper then walk.  I really can't see dropping drains for anyhitng else right now.

[AggressiveDude]

I may suggest thinking about a 4th Tog in GAT.
What was the main reason NW was played instead of AK?It was the Hulk Machtup.Hulk has a lot of trouble dealing with your dryads and if you run 4 Togs you can control your graveyard and protect yourself from enemy AK´s.

What do you think about that?Is the idea really that bad?

[Caelestis]

The point is that GaT is built to abuse Dryad, whereas Hulk to abuse Psychatog, and in turn AK. They are much better able to utilize the cards than you are. If you want to fight fire with fire like that, you are better off just playing Hulk, because GaT simply isn't equipped to use cards like that.